Is it really worth it?

[gUiLe]

I have been thinking lately. In fact thinking a LOT about why I do the things I do. The more I think about it, the more I ask
myself why. Is it really worth going through the trouble?? Is it
worth possibly jeopardizing your health, all the money spent,
breaking the law? Everytime I stick a needle in my ass, I feel a
certain "way". Like I am low or something. I am not writting
this to "preach" about how bad steroids are and all that shit. I
think we should just try to be a little more AWARE of the things
we do and why we do them. Is it because of our own
insecurities?

I don't know. But when I read some threads (Enlarged heart thread comes to mind), I think I must be fucked in the head!
Hey, we all have our reasons for doing roids. Just try to be
aware that there are more things to life then steroids.

Will I stop using? Probably not. At least until I reach my goal.
But for some of us, that goal is unreachable.
g

 

[Zyglamail]

Its definatly a personal choice and im not trying to talk you into our out of anything, but we are all going to die, its just a matter of when. Knowing that, I personally choose to make my time here as productive and enjoyable as possible. As for legality and feeling dirty, its due to ignorance that people look down on use. hell a couple hundred years ago they used to burn witches at the steak too. People are simply afraid of the unknown or that which they dont understand so they lable it. As for legalit, we all know that is a crock of shit on our governments part. tabacco and alcohol ruin more lives in one year than AAS has since its discovery yet AAS taxes dont line out corrupt governments pocket so its shunned and made illegal. Hell there are a lot of countries on the globe where it isnt illegal, legality and morality do NOT run parallel.

 

[supertech69]

Its definatly a personal choice and im not trying to talk you into our out of anything, but we are all going to die, its just a matter of when. Knowing that, I personally choose to make my time here as productive and enjoyable as possible. As for legality and feeling dirty, its due to ignorance that people look down on use. hell a couple hundred years ago they used to burn witches at the steak too. People are simply afraid of the unknown or that which they dont understand so they lable it. As for legalit, we all know that is a crock of shit on our governments part. tabacco and alcohol ruin more lives in one year than AAS has since its discovery yet AAS taxes dont line out corrupt governments pocket so its shunned and made illegal. Hell there are a lot of countries on the globe where it isnt illegal, legality and morality do NOT run parallel.

Well put Zyg!

 

[Silent Method]

gUiLe, I've been thinking alot about the same thing lately. I've got too many feelings on this right now to make a cognizant post summing up those feelings.

Zyg makes some great points regarding the dynamics of the guilt you may be feeling. However, regarding morality and law, I am reminded of Socrates in the Athenian jail. He held that, being a member of a given society, one has a morally obligation to obey the laws set forth in that society, whether the given laws are a crock of shit or not. Western culture has a hard time identifying with this idea. Nevertheless, good philosophical argument exists to support this argument.

I do accept whole heatedly that one of our biggest moral responsibilities is to be true to our conscience. I am fully aware of the implications that Zyg's idea has on our perception of our conscience. gUiLe, I encourage you to seek the heart of your conscience in this matter...

 

[gUiLe]

As for legality and feeling dirty, its due to ignorance that people look down on use.

Zyg- I agree with you on some points here. Yes, we all are
going to die someday. Yes, their is a LOT of ignorance out there
that is hightend by lies and the media. But as for that "feeling
dirty", you can't blame that on ignorance. So I (and I'm sure
a LOT of other guys) are ignorant because we "feel dirty" when
we are sticking syringes into our bodies? Hey, I understand
this is a decision that I made and nobody is holding a gun to
my head but that was the main reason of my post. It is just
describing some of the feelings/thoughts that I have on the
matter. I didn't post this to try to "get people to stop" using
steroids.
g

 

[Zyglamail]

Sorry, I think you may have misread me Guile, Im not stating you feel dirty because your ignroant, simply that you feel dirty due to the stigma associated with AAS use that is propogated among the populace due to their ignorance, not yours.

Zyg makes some great points regarding the dynamics of the guilt you may be feeling. However, regarding morality and law, I am reminded of Socrates in the Athenian jail. He held that, being a member of a given society, one has a morally obligation to obey the laws set forth in that society, whether the given laws are a crock of shit or not. Western culture has a hard time identifying with this idea. Nevertheless, good philosophical argument exists to support this argument.

There are 360 degrees to a cirlce and at least as many viewpoints. There is no perfect society, democaracy or not, we as everyday people have virtually NO input on the way our country is run. I did not chose to be a member of this society, I was born into it. Had I been borne in nazi germany should I stand by the beliefs of hitler just because I am a member of his society? I dont think so! Our government is corrupt and like so many things, they are ruled by the almightly dollar. I live by my own code of ethics and follow a slightly different set of beliefs than those that our government imposes as law. I feel child molesters should be sentanced to death yet that does not happen. I feel AAS should be decriminalized yet that is not the case. Morality = perception, morality does not equal law. Religion, laws and morality are all perceptions of man, sometimes they run parallel and sometimes they do not, once again it depends on what religion, what government and ultimatly what man you ask.

 

[gUiLe]

Sorry, I think you may have misread me Guile, Im not stating you feel dirty because your ignroant, simply that you feel dirty due to the stigma associated with AAS use that is propogated among the populace due to their ignorance, not yours.

My bad.
g

 

[pittbull2]

I have been thinking lately. In fact thinking a LOT about why I do the things I do. The more I think about it, the more I ask
myself why. Is it really worth going through the trouble?? Is it
worth possibly jeopardizing your health,

I don't know. But when I read some threads (Enlarged heart thread comes to mind), I think I must be CRAZY in the head!
Hey, we all have our reasons for doing roids. Just try to be
aware that there are more things to life then steroids.

Will I stop using? Probably not. At least until I reach my goal.
But for some of us, that goal is unreachable.
g

I know how you feel, but the enlarged heart post bothers me more than all!!!!!!!!!

 

[BBBodie]

......Is it because of our own
insecurities?

I don't know. But when I read some threads (Enlarged heart thread comes to mind), I think I must be fucked in the head!
Hey, we all have our reasons for doing roids. Just try to be
aware that there are more things to life then steroids.
.......
g

I started lifting because I was insecure, insecure in my health. I was a heart patient waiting to happen at 28% bf and my BP sent most doctors scurrying for the prescription pad for Norvasc.

After my first year lifting (age 40), my BP was down to normal, my weight was down to 14% bf and I felt a hell of a lot better. Not to mention the improved self-esteem (a nice by product). year two found similar improvements and it wasnt until I hit my wall, that I realized I had need of any chemical help. My Doc saw my blood work and we went through legal channels, so I am fortunate that I had a good doctor. don't ask me to detail what we did, because I won't, she does a great job, and doesnt need the attention.

Bottom line, roids or any other chemical enhancements, are just a step up in improving on your natural abilities, I don't see anything wrong with them as long as you don't become dependent on them to make progress, or find the excuse to start a new cycle, just 'cause.

Bo

 

[The Terminator]

Hey, we all have our reasons for doing roids. Just try to be
aware that there are more things to life then steroids.

Will I stop using? Probably not. At least until I reach my goal.
But for some of us, that goal is unreachable.
g

Priorities in life are constantly changing, NO juicing and getting huge will not fulfill everything you want in life. But the discipline and drive that you learn will certainly be beneficial to other aspects of your life. As you know it takes alot of hard work and discipline to look the way you want so the lessons learned are invaluable and can last a lifetime.

 

[gUiLe]

Re: Re: Is it really worth it?

I know how you feel, but the enlarged heart post bothers me more than all!!!!!!!!!

Don't be so sure about that bro. That post has been in my head more times then I care to admit. My prayers go out to that
dude. I just don't want to end up the same way. I am addicted to
looking good but I keep asking myself is it all worth it.
g

 

[Xtreme2001]

This thread was a good read.

Zyg, you make great points.

 

[Zyglamail]

In regards to an enlarged heart, there is not a lot of concrete evidence on it, about all that they can say is that AAS using Athletes tend to have a higher occurance of enlarged heart. There is much contention in this area. Here is an abstract for your entertainment

Sports-specific adaptations and differentiation of the athlete's heart.

Urhausen A, Kindermann W.

Institute of Sports and Preventive Medicine, Department of Clinical Medicine, University of Saarland, Saarbrucken, Germany. [email protected]

Although the sports-specific adaptations and differentiation of an athlete's heart (AH) were first described 100 years ago, the condition is still an area of active debate. In clinical practice, there is often an obvious lack of basic knowledge concerning the prerequisites and well established extent of the structural and functional characteristics of an AH. Some misunderstandings arise from the somewhat misleading term 'athlete's heart' because not every athlete, even if he or she is training and competing at a very high level, develops an enlarged heart. Such a condition can only be expected after years of quantitative and qualitative demanding aerobic endurance training. Although the correlation with competitive performance of endurance events is rather low in trained athletes, the relationship between heart dimensions and ergometric performance represents an important criterion for differentiation between physiological and pathological cardiac enlargement. The assessment of measures exceeding the usual clinical limits, especially concerning volume-dependent echocardiographic parameters, also requires consideration of the strong influence of anthropometric data. The existence of a concentric left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) in strength-trained athletes is still a topic of debate in the literature, but is rejected by most recent well-conducted trials. In our review. only bodybuilders using anabolic steroids exhibited a distinctly higher hypertrophic index compared with all other groups of endurance or strength athletes. Current unsolved issues in clinical sports medicine concern the early detection of myocardial complications in athletes exercising during infectious diseases, and the eligibility for competitive sport in cases of borderline LVH.

 

[Zyglamail]

Here is another.....

[Heart enlargement in an athlete--a diagnostic challenge]

[Article in German]

Kindermann W, Janzen I, Urhausen A, Schieffer HJ.

Institut fur Sport- und Praventivmedizin, Universitat des Saarlandes.

Endurance training can result in an enlargement of the heart. These athlete's hearts are rarer than generally assumed. Pathological causes, resulting in an eccentric hypertrophy, have to be considered. We report on a 32 year old athlete performing approximately 10 hours of endurance training weekly. He consulted a physician because of a drop in performance. The eccentric left ventricular hypertrophy, diagnosed by means of echocardiography, was not interpreted as a solely physiological cardiac adaptation because the ejection fraction did not increase during exercise (stress-echocardiography), the left ventricular diastolic function (maximum E/A-ratio) was impaired at rest, and the ergometric performance was reduced in comparison to the heart size. The invasive diagnostics including myocardial biopsy demonstrate histologically a focal fibrosis as the result of former myocarditis. The fibrosis was possibly involved in the genesis of the eccentric hypertrophy based on structural dilatation through a preferably mesenchymal lesion. It remains open whether the long-term endurance training had forced the dilatation. This case demonstrates that pathological causes must be excluded if in athletes an enlarged heart does not concur together with a clearly increased ergometric performance. Stress-echocardiography and endomyocardial biopsy can considerably contribute to the differential diagnosis between physiological and pathological cardiac hypertrophy.

 

[myasshurts]

It personally is not worth it for me. Too much food, drugs, etc for too long for something you can't usually keep.

 

[Themachine01]

It personally is not worth it for me. Too much food, drugs, etc for too long for something you can't usually keep.

Is this a conclusion you just came to? I believe you have to find a medium somewhere, I dont agree with you just giving it all up.

 

[Dr.M]

Yep, there is nothing wrong with not wanting to be a 400 pound dude, no reason to be a fatass like the rest of the citizenry though either.

 

[gUiLe]

It personally is not worth it for me. Too much food, drugs, etc for too long for something you can't usually keep.

I almost forgot about the food. How can I forget about constantly
thinking about what I'm going to eat, what time will I eat,
am I getting enough of this and that. I won't give it up....yet.
g

 

[gwl9dta4]

It's been years since i juiced and here is why i stopped.

1. Got tired of that little voice in my head begging me to NOT do another cycle. I finally gave in and stopped.

2. I realised that i was psychologically addicted.

3. The food/supplements, don't even mention that.

4. Being a slave to the gym and eating patterns gets very stressfull in the longrun and take away from the joys of life.


Bodybuilding is a good endaver and a worthwhile one. BUT it's difficult to balance it with life. If you can balance it and not take it too seriousley then it's all good. Bottom line is that bodybuilding drugs ARE harmfull in the long run. The types of stress they impose on the kidneys, liver, heart, Blood Pressure, endoctrine disturbances and the type of force feed diets used to gain "MASS" all for what? Add to the stress the stress of training and it draining effects on the body.

You will askyourself that question when you are 40 or 50yo and you have worn out shoulders, elbows, hips and it hurts to walk around, But hey in your 20's you had 30 inch quads.


Thing is, i am not bashing using, that would make me a hipocrate. I think 1 to 2 6 week, small dose cutting cycles per year would be optimal for good looks, health and endurance. Unfortunately just about everyone that juices goes WAY overboard. My mom used to say, " Son, find yourself a job with good health benefits".

 

[Silent Method]

There are 360 degrees to a cirlce and at least as many viewpoints. There is no perfect society, democaracy or not, we as everyday people have virtually NO input on the way our country is run. I did not chose to be a member of this society, I was born into it. Had I been borne in nazi germany should I stand by the beliefs of hitler just because I am a member of his society? I dont think so! Our government is corrupt and like so many things, they are ruled by the almightly dollar. I live by my own code of ethics and follow a slightly different set of beliefs than those that our government imposes as law. I feel child molesters should be sentanced to death yet that does not happen. I feel AAS should be decriminalized yet that is not the case. Morality = perception, morality does not equal law. Religion, laws and morality are all perceptions of man, sometimes they run parallel and sometimes they do not, once again it depends on what religion, what government and ultimatly what man you ask.

I follow right along with you bro (though I could pick apart some specifics in this quote). Regardless, my point was far from suggesting that because something is law within a society it must also be moral standard. My aim was to illistrate to gUiLe that even a man as genius as Socrates was still affected with "social guilt."

You want to know what I think? At the heart of the matter, Socrates accepted his own execution for a charge of which his own conscience was clear. In my mind, the very fact that he abandoned his intrinsic right to life, for a crime that was not in his heart but only percieved by society, is immoral.

 

[Zyglamail]

I follow right along with you bro (though I could pick apart some specifics in this quote). Regardless, my point was far from suggesting that because something is law within a society it must also be moral standard. My aim was to illistrate to gUiLe that even a man as genius as Socrates was still affected with "social guilt."

You want to know what I think? At the heart of the matter, Socrates accepted his own execution for a charge of which his own conscience was clear. In my mind, the very fact that he abandoned his intrinsic right to life, for a crime that was not in his heart but only percieved by society, is immoral.

Your ability to "pick apart" the above quote simply goes to further illustrate what I was getting at by perception. In my haste reading through stuff today (was on the phone for large part of it so had someone talking in my ear while reading) I actually missed your point as stated just now, very insightfull.

 

[Silent Method]

Your ability to "pick apart" the above quote simply goes to further illustrate what I was getting at by perception.

I most definitely agree. The ability to understand and manipulate the idea of perception, it's essence and implications on our understanding, is a true mark of higher intelligence.

BTW, there are 360 degrees to a circle and an infinite number of perspectives along the way! And this is so even though the circle is only two dimensional! So their!

 

[Zyglamail]

BTW, there are 360 degrees to a circle and an infinite number of perspectives along the way! And this is so even though the circle is only two dimensional! So their!

Well, if it were 3 dimensional it would then be a sphere, so there!

 

[gwl9dta4]

With all due respect bro...what are you doing here? (on the board)?

Well just read the last paragraph for the answer. Either way i have a lot of knowledge on these issues and am pretty open to sharing and helping others, although recently i have been slacking in posting on this forum, but how many times can you answer to "can i dring winny?".

I still like to lurk and try to steer people in the right direction when they consider juice. Especially newbies. I do my best to steer people away from high dosages and into sane use while consider long term health consequences. That way you can cycle well into your 60's 70's and beyond. Gotta stay healthy first and foremost. Cool?