is cheating the same as saying society 'owes' you?

[strongchick]

I just read a story about Navy recruiters being fired for helping recruits lie about their high school education...in particular, they helped recruits fill out paperwork saying they were 'home schooled' even though the recruits were really high school drop outs.

Ordinarily, I wouldn't care, but...one kid (who happens to be black..not really relevant to the story but anyway) said he had nothing to lose by lying, otherwise, he would be rotting away on his front porch with nothing to do, no career, nothing.

He says he deserved a chance, and lying to get that chance is okay.

A lot of folks here feel disdain toward those who circumvent the rules to get 'ahead'. They say this behavior is the same as saying you are 'owed' something by America or society.

My gut feel is that our leaders teach us to maneuver around the rules to get ahead....even if it means doing something illegal.

And if _you_ had no other (perceived) chance, wouldn't you lie, as this kid did? Can this situation be compared to lying t oget more welfare money, or lying on a resume to get a promotion? Isn't it all the same thing with the same level of dishonesty? Why is one worse than the other?

I'm not trying to be deliberately provocative here...I am truly curious and interested in your responses or stories. I often wonder about this subject, since I hear from you folks a lot on it in various conversations with varying degrees of emotion.
Specifically, many of you express disdain toward people who abuse welfare, politicians who lie, etc. But you same folks lie on your resume....?

 

[cure]

About your story, (and i know it is not what your trying to put across) some people just aren't made for school. It's not that they are lazy, just that they can't handle going to school day in and day out. Thing is that alot of the times, jobs and positions are taught on the spot and i feel that sometimes school is pretty much useless. Who would be better at teaching respect and discipline than a drill sergeant. All i'm trying to say is that school is a big waist of time. Lying in situations like these are not hurting anyone so why not go ahead and do it. I just think that if people knew that you can join the army or reserves without a high school education many more people would drop out of school.

 

[danielson]

hi

its difficult to generalise in these situations, as each case would be specifically different. say the guy's twin brother had died right before his exams or it traumatised him to the extent where he had to drop out

if he had a chance and knew it was within his grasp, would u fault him for it?


on the other hand if he wate his life in high school, took great solace in messing about and generally making everybody elses life hell, would u have ANY sympathy for him?

i wasnt aware you needed qualifications to join the army as a squaddie, or was he going for an officer post?



do i blame him for taking a chance.....no. like he said, he had nothing to lose. if this resulted in him putting his life or the lives of other navy personell at risk then yes i would blame him, i have no idea what he was going for here. most people here, whether they admit it or not would have done what he did, and if they didnt it would only be because they are afraid of getting caught. he did get caught. so he has to face the consequences


so i dont think its the same as getting welfare money provided he did his job well and didnt put opther at risk, he was TRYING to make something of his life, if a little late. as for the promotion, no simply because he didnt have a job to start with

 

[Rex]

Ordinarily, I wouldn't care, but...one kid (who happens to be black..not really relevant to the story but anyway)

If it isn't relevant, then why did you find it necessary to throw it in there?

Can this situation be compared to lying t oget more welfare money? Isn't it all the same thing with the same level of dishonesty? Why is one worse than the other?

No, at least the guy entering the military intends on working. Why is one worse than the other you ask. B/c the person lying for welfare money is a leech.

 

[strongchick]

Re: Re: is cheating the same as saying society 'owes' you?

Ordinarily, I wouldn't care, but...one kid (who happens to be black..not really relevant to the story but anyway)

If it isn't relevant, then why did you find it necessary to throw it in there?

Can this situation be compared to lying t oget more welfare money? Isn't it all the same thing with the same level of dishonesty? Why is one worse than the other?

No, at least the guy entering the military intends on working. Why is one worse than the other you ask. B/c the person lying for welfare money is a leech.

I threw his race in there to see if it would influence the responses. And when I said I ordinarily wouldn't care, I was referring to the general topic.

Back to the topic: so it is okay to lie as long as you don't 'leech'?

I find this reasoning somewhat faulty. It should never be okay to lie to jump ahead in line. What about if there was a shortage of slots in the military? What if we now have to pay for remedial coursework for this kid? I know this isn't the case...but would your reasoning change? I have a feeling it would.

 

[danielson]

Re: Re: Re: is cheating the same as saying society 'owes' you?

I threw his race in there to see if it would influence the responses. And when I said I ordinarily wouldn't care, I was referring to the general topic.

Back to the topic: so it is okay to lie as long as you don't 'leech'?

I find this reasoning somewhat faulty. It should never be okay to lie to jump ahead in line. What about if there was a shortage of slots in the military? What if we now have to pay for remedial coursework for this kid? I know this isn't the case...but would your reasoning change? I have a feeling it would.

more details!

was he going to bypass others with his qualifications?

would others have suffered if he had succeeded?

your society doesnt seem to be geared towards public services....is community college free? if not this might have been his only chance. if you had a life in the ghetto as someones bitch-boy vs. a career would you 'jump the line'?

of course

 

[gwl9dta4]

Well the story you derscribed is nto really breaking the rules as it is bending them. There is nothign wrong with that as long you are not hurting anyone. And i mean anyone. And if it can make you life better then why not, who will suffer? No one but you. So to hell with it. Don't tell me you never went 60mph in a 55 mph zone on an empty road, because if you did, you just broke the laws and rules to get ahead quicker. So who cares about petty stuff like that.

Look at it this way, there are 2 yhing that determine wheather the act you commit is bad. One is whether it is bad because it's immoral and the other one is it's bad because it's illegal, 2 different thigs.

Murder is a bad thing, even though it's illegal. Even if it was not illegal it would still be bad. Now lying on an application may be illegal but it is not an inherently bad act. Legal or not.


Hope i made sence.


gwl9dta4

 

[Rex]

There are plenty of slots open in the military. If there was a 'shortage' don't you think the recruiters, and whoever else does that paper work look more deeply into an application.

What kind of remedial course work do you think this kid is going to need? Before you even can go to bootcamp you have to take the ASVAB. If he does poorly on, lets say electronics for argument's sake, he will not get a job as an electrician.

 

[strongchick]

It is my gut belief that the 'haves' agree, behind closed doors, that cheating is okay, but in front of the rest of us, put down cheating.

I think it is BS that welfare cheats are looked down upon...they are simply following an example. If you don't want them to do it, then block the loopholes.

Capitalism teaches us to work smart, not hard. Cheating is one version of smart.

I applaud this kid...but I get ticked when folks say that other kinds of cheating are worse. That is just BS.

Look at the S&L debacle of the early 90's, look at Enron...etc etc. That kind of cheating is applauding by several on this board. Why is that any better or worse than being a welfare cheat? Why is cheating to join the military any better than either?

 

[strongchick]

Re: Re: Re: Re: is cheating the same as saying society 'owes' you?

more details!

was he going to bypass others with his qualifications?


the article didn't say.


would others have suffered if he had succeeded?


I doubt it.


your society doesnt seem to be geared towards public services....is community college free? if not this might have been his only chance. if you had a life in the ghetto as someones bitch-boy vs. a career would you 'jump the line'?



I am arguing both sides...sorry. I agree that this kid probably had no chance...community college is free for certain kids who come from impoverished homes...but you have to graduate high school first.

 

[Rex]

The guy joining the military is serving his nation. The welfare cheat is just leeching, yes leeching, off of everyone else.

Why is one worse? B/c one guy is doing something productive, and the other is not.

As for blocking the loopholes of welfare. Get rid of the whole damn thing. No loopholes if the thing doesn't exist.

 

[gwl9dta4]

Hmm, i must say that there is a difference in how and who you cheat. This kid went into the military, so he serves his country, protects us, works his ass off and will put his life on the line for this nation.

SO HOW DARE DOES ANYONE CAMPARE HIM TO A WELFARE CHEAT. IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE DIFFERENCE IT'S TIME FOR AN IQ TEST TO CHECK THE LEVEL OF YOUR IGNORACE.


Sincerely

 

[danielson]

Look at the S&L debacle of the early 90's, look at Enron...etc etc. That kind of cheating is applauding by several on this board. Why is that any better or worse than being a welfare cheat? Why is cheating to join the military any better than either?

enron cheat - harmed others, namely workers

welfare cheat- indirectly harms us as diverts money away from those who need it

his cheating - allows him to join the armed services and serve everyone in his country, earn a wage and possibly springboard his life into a position where he can pay taxes and help the community


by cheating he would be helping others/not harming anyone. thats why its acceptable. sometimes you have to try to bend the rules

 

[gymnpoppa]

Who would be better at teaching respect and discipline than a drill sergeant.

Parents. Would be better at teaching respect and discipline than a drill sergeant.

Most people fudge (cheat) on their resumes, or school papers, and think it's okay. Or the thought that because you serve your country, it's okay to lie is bullshit.

Cheating is wrong, no matter what the end result is. Part of the problem with our society now, too many things that demand integrity, or honesty, good core values, or pissed away as being relics.

Precisely why former Enron employees have no retirement, or stocks.......the brass thought it was okay to cheat. IMO, they're just as fucked up as the welfare cheaters.

 

[danielson]

Precisely why former Enron employees have no retirement, or stocks.......the brass thought it was okay to cheat. IMO, they're just as fucked up as the welfare cheaters.

that i agree on

also the fact he cheated was wrong to in principle. but i dont equate him on level with welfare cheaters

anyhow goodnight

 

[gwl9dta4]

Parents. Would be better at teaching respect and discipline than a drill sergeant.

Most people fudge (cheat) on their resumes, or school papers, and think it's okay. Or the thought that because you serve your country, it's okay to lie is bullshit.

Cheating is wrong, no matter what the end result is. Part of the problem with our society now, too many things that demand integrity, or honesty, good core values, or pissed away as being relics.

Precisely why former Enron employees have no retirement, or stocks.......the brass thought it was okay to cheat. IMO, they're just as fucked up as the welfare cheaters.

So cheating is the act of breaking the rules and hoping to not get caught. Right? And it is wrong, no matter what, right? No exception. Well at least that is the view you propose. But have you ever driven over the speed limit? Drove a car after having a drink? Lied to an officer after getting pulled over? The point of me saying this is that some lies are really incensequential and it's redicilous to expect anyone to be a perfect robot.

 

[Wombat]

Rules are just guidelines in this country. And none of them are black and white but grey. Master the grey and your life can be fruitful----Follow them to a T ---and you will become uneasy of the world around you.

 

[gymnpoppa]

So cheating is the act of breaking the rules and hoping to not get caught. Right? And it is wrong, no matter what, right? No exception. Well at least that is the view you propose. But have you ever driven over the speed limit? Drove a car after having a drink? Lied to an officer after getting pulled over? The point of me saying this is that some lies are really incensequential and it's redicilous to expect anyone to be a perfect robot.

Yes.....to all of your questions, except the last one. In fact, some of those are breaking laws. So YES, they're wrong. And the problem is when people are affected by what you term inconsequential lies such as speeding, or driving drunk, it is a problem. Tell that to some of the MADD members, or people who have lost loved ones. It's wrong, and the idea of it being blown off perpetuates into a blase attitude that it is ridiculous, and it isn't about being a robot.

Don't exaggerate to make a point. Telling the truth/doing the right thing makes you a robot? Give me a fucking break.

 

[Island Son]

good post gym

 

[gwl9dta4]

Yes.....to all of your questions, except the last one. In fact, some of those are breaking laws. So YES, they're wrong. And the problem is when people are affected by what you term inconsequential lies such as speeding, or driving drunk, it is a problem. Tell that to some of the MADD members, or people who have lost loved ones. It's wrong, and the idea of it being blown off perpetuates into a blase attitude that it is ridiculous, and it isn't about being a robot.

Don't exaggerate to make a point. Telling the truth/doing the right thing makes you a robot? Give me a fucking break.

I apologise for making it seem like i think it's ok to dring and drive, because i whole heartedly am against it. Trust me on that. But in this particular case, with the military enlistment of this individual. let me tell you this, i do not think that he was wrong at all. He had every right to do what he did cosidering his outcome. So he broke the rules, so what. Is that really wrong? In my opinon no. And why do i feel this way? Because in my eyes it's wrong for us to have SOME of these rules that classify individuals and prihibit them from even having a chance at a good life because they may have been born into a home and parents that did nothing to foster knowledge and education and as a result he may have been left without even a high school education.

Who are we to have rules that CLASSIFY an individual? Then bash him for bending the very rules that would have kept him down. So he got ahead, good for him. I applaud his ambition.

Too many peple make the excuse the they can't acheive anything because the man keeps them down and go on welfare for which WE pay. F that. He did the right thing. Again, i applaud his ambition and drive.

 

[Island Son]

it's the attitude.
If he'd said "i knew it was wrong but i felt it was the only way to get ahead, and i'm ready to work my ass off" it might be
different.

people like that will CHEAT on his tests, SCREW UP critical equipment, generally do as LITTLE AS POSSIBLE to get by and when the going gets tough he will DESERT and LEAVE HIS BUDDIES TO DIE. All because he has no integrity.

Would you trust him to pack your parachute?

 

[gymnpoppa]

it's the attitude.
If he'd said "i knew it was wrong but i felt it was the only way to get ahead, and i'm ready to work my ass off" it might be
different.

people like that will CHEAT on his tests, SCREW UP critical equipment, generally do as LITTLE AS POSSIBLE to get by and when the going gets tough he will DESERT and LEAVE HIS BUDDIES TO DIE. All because he has no integrity.

Would you trust him to pack your parachute?

Fuck NO.


And I hear where you're coming from dude, but people don't have the ability to just stop. It's unfortunate, but that's how it is. Too many others will abuse it. Scammers, fake gear.....it all starts with a lie.