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interesting article

I don't know. 100-200mg/week of enanthate is the hormone replacement dosage, and one of those studies was using doses as low as 25mg/week.

The doses in the enanthate study were pretty low. However I think its cool that one study talks about a 6 lb lbm mass gain on 125mg/week of enanthate. Of course, those were old men and old men will respond better to exercise & testosterone than a 20 year old would.
 
nope - if you read again you will see they used from 25mg to 600mg. 600mg resulted in avg of 17 fat free pounds of muscle gain.

the only negative trait was slight reduction in HDL...9 points, and I suspect if you did 8 weeks only, you would spend less time with this effect of course.

All other groups (300mg included remained in the normal group (40-59) for HDL.

I'm doing short cycles, test prop, 150mg eod...I really don't see any problems with that. Onyl thing to watch out for is suppression, and that we have to deal with.
 
Zircon said:
nope - if you read again you will see they used from 25mg to 600mg. 600mg resulted in avg of 17 fat free pounds of muscle gain.

the only negative trait was slight reduction in HDL...9 points, and I suspect if you did 8 weeks only, you would spend less time with this effect of course.

All other groups (300mg included remained in the normal group (40-59) for HDL.

I'm doing short cycles, test prop, 150mg eod...I really don't see any problems with that. Onyl thing to watch out for is suppression, and that we have to deal with.
Click to expand...

Nah. They used various doses, some as low as 25mg. It seems like every dose below 300mg/week would be reasonably safe as again, that is only a little above hormone replacement levels.
 
yes. THey used various doses. But the only side effect from 600mg was mildly reduced hdl.

With everything in else the hdl was in range.

The point is this: all the extreme hype, and then someone goes on 600mg test e for 20 weeks (!!!) and what he gets is a lowered hdl. Not good, btu then again, not exactly what the antagonists of steroid use think either.

The point is, it's overhyped,. sure it's not great for you. But still looks betetr for your health than smoking.
 
Even the 600 mg/week dose looks pretty safe. A 9 point reduction in HDL certainly isn't going to kill anyone, especially if they have good levels to start with.

I can't believe they gave 65 - 80 year olds 100mg/day of Anadrol, but even that went better than I would have expected...
 
I think the lesson of those studies, and I have posted them over the years, is that people need to re-evaluate their first cycle. I've said this so many times. You have one chance at a first cycle and using 300mg of test instead of 1000mg is a wasted first cycle. I see people doing it all the time because they are afraid of steroids or what might happen. Here you medical researchers giving men over 65, who don't train, 600mg of test for 5 months straight WITHOUT AN AI and they're fine.
Okay back to the thread.
 
Ulter said:
I think the lesson of those studies, and I have posted them over the years, is that people need to re-evaluate their first cycle. I've said this so many times. You have one chance at a first cycle and using 300mg of test instead of 1000mg is a wasted first cycle. I see people doing it all the time because they are afraid of steroids or what might happen. Here you medical researchers giving men over 65, who don't train, 600mg of test for 5 months straight WITHOUT AN AI and they're fine.
Okay back to the thread.
Click to expand...

Good point. From now on when someone comes to me for first cycle advice I will teach them these principles.

T-Matt
 
But considering the cycle was 20 weeks 600mg test e, I don't see a problem running 500mg test e twice a year for maybe 8 weeks at a time.

the only question is your hormone recovery...
Click to expand...


That is my current HRT with 100mg of tren daily

Not too worried about hormone replacement


Although I am thinking D-bol may give me that replacement I am looking for.
 
Ulter said:
I think the lesson of those studies, and I have posted them over the years, is that people need to re-evaluate their first cycle. I've said this so many times. You have one chance at a first cycle and using 300mg of test instead of 1000mg is a wasted first cycle. I see people doing it all the time because they are afraid of steroids or what might happen. Here you medical researchers giving men over 65, who don't train, 600mg of test for 5 months straight WITHOUT AN AI and they're fine.
Okay back to the thread.
Click to expand...

So your saying a newbie should run a gram a week of test??
 
Zircon said:
yes. THey used various doses. But the only side effect from 600mg was mildly reduced hdl.

With everything in else the hdl was in range.

The point is this: all the extreme hype, and then someone goes on 600mg test e for 20 weeks (!!!) and what he gets is a lowered hdl. Not good, btu then again, not exactly what the antagonists of steroid use think either.

The point is, it's overhyped,. sure it's not great for you. But still looks betetr for your health than smoking.
Click to expand...

Yeah, there is alot of hype. My point was that you aren't going to get alot of muscle building at 25 or 50mg since 100-200mg is used for things like birth control or hormone replacement. So the health effects of 25 or 50mg aren't really that important for those who take 400-800mg/week at a time. But yeah, you are right that there is alot of hype. But that is the way the society works on stigmatized issues, they want fear mongering instead of level headed discourse. The movie Kinsey, for example, covered pretty well Kinsey's attempts to address the fear mongering around sex back in the 50s.

Even the decrease in HDLs can be combatted with either dietary changes, nutritional supplements or pharmaceuticals.

http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/...ug_strategies_to_increase_your_hdl_levels.htm

http://www.loweringcholesterol.net/show/raise-hdl-cholesterol
 
thanks for the links, I'll follow it up.

I have good friends, very bright guys. THey think for themselves in all areas of their lives, they donot usually accept anything that is said to them.

But mention steroids...one big boohaaa...lol it's quite funny really. They don't even know the FIRST thing about it!!! and they think it's the worst stuff ever. eg one guy said your penis will shrink after a couple of week.s

this is from a physics phd dude, young guy, smart.

Speechless.

I'm not sayin steroids not dangerous. Hell, if you're unlucky (gyno, some ppl respond extremely badly to orals with bad lipids etc), then well, you're screwed. but probably 9/10 ppl are fine on a normal test doseage, good pct, good time off.
 
thanks for the links, I'll follow it up.

I have good friends, very bright guys. THey think for themselves in all areas of their lives, they donot usually accept anything that is said to them.

But mention steroids...one big boohaaa...lol it's quite funny really. They don't even know the FIRST thing about it!!! and they think it's the worst stuff ever. eg one guy said your penis will shrink after a couple of week.s

this is from a physics phd dude, young guy, smart.

Speechless.

I'm not sayin steroids not dangerous. Hell, if you're unlucky (gyno, some ppl respond extremely badly to orals with bad lipids etc), then well, you're screwed. but probably 9/10 ppl are fine on a normal test doseage, good pct, good time off.
 
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