insulin safety

[acneman]

i just posted this on another thread but i want exposure for addition from anabolic diabetic, andy, mod, and maxbicepts. and all the moderators especially iron game and mustang_18 (and even fonz although i dont like you)
mabey together we can make this a comprehensive safety post for insulin




1. do not use slin alone have a partner or girlfriend(or mom) whos not using slin hang around with you from the time you take the slin to about 2.5 hrs after.

2. tell them to look for anything out of the norm for your personality and have a list of questions like your ssn or address etc that they can ask you. dont joke around and answer them without shit because if you cant answer or refuse to answer it could be a sign of low blood sugar.

3. if you cant/wont answer they should be prepared to feed you carbs like pancake syrup, coke, sugary stuff. i bought glucose tablets at walmart. kinda like candy but gets in the blood faster and disolve quickly. these are for diabetics ask at the pharmacy

4. have your partner know that if they suspect low blood sugar and cant convince or force you to consume carbs until your better. CALL 911 and ask for an ambulance and tell the truth to the operater that they suspect you are in insulin shock and explain when they get there(the ambulance not the cops) that you are not diabetic but using insulin for anabolic purposes have the type of slin and the dosage and carbs consumed recorded to give the paramedic. they will save you then u refuse transport to the hospital and eat. if the cops ask a lot of question and wont let it go tell the truth but be sure your house is clean before every workout just in case the bad thing happens.

5. why so much preperation for the possible problem?? insulin can kill you in minutes if you go down!!

6. take fast acting R type or the new stuff humalog. i recomend humulin R cause its the same as human slin. its created with recombinant dna bacteria(gross). you take the fast acting so its out of the system faster and that is safer

7. take the carbs and protein together imediatly after injecting the slin(dont take chances trying to time out 15 min) take the protein with the carbs because the protein is pushed into the muscles with the slin also(creatine too).

8. eat again 1 hour after the slin.

9. at 2.5 hours drink some gator aid and dismiss your watcher. you lived.(drink the gator aid just to make sure becaus your getting rid of your lifeline)

10. creatine works great with slin take it with your first dose of carbs.

11. only take the slin after a work out never before or when not working out because before a work out you could crash and die during the workout and when your not working out it makes you fat.


12. short cycles please because you could have side effects. it is suspected that you could become an insulin dependant diabetic but i have never seen proof, but is it worth the risk. i would only use it a few times a week for no more than 4 weeks.

13 grow grow grow

 

[acneman]

remember this is mostly safety but if some of the vets want to get into specific usage we can do that to.

 

[FlexManning]

Yeah, but the morning is a good time to take it also.

 

[acneman]

how would you take it in the morning (i assume you will be working out somehow so how)and what safety percautions would you use

what specific safety pers for morning as opposed to regular use

 

[FlexManning]

I take it in the morning on off days too. I also train in the morning on days that
I train. But I would never do over a 2 week cycle and I only would use it once a day.
So I take it pretty much the same way everyday for that 7-14 days. I think that is the
best way because you want to be superloaded on creatine, glutamine, glycogen, etc.
when you train. I just wake up and shoot it while I'm slamming some gatorade mixed
with creatine. Then I worry about taking in the other stuff- protein, glutamine, etc.

 

[acneman]

well dude i disagree with your use but if its workin for ya great. besides the gatoraid carbdrink what do you do to assure yourself of livin to tomorrow

 

[FlexManning]

Where have you heard that you couldn't take it on nontraining days in the
morning? I've never heard anybody say that. Your insulin sensitivity is fantastic
in the morning because you are in a fasted state. As I said in another post, I like
protein carb drinks with a lot of maltodextrin. I'll drink lots of gatorade, and even
juice and soda sometimes. I keep some PowerBars around because they are high
in carbs and some of them contain almost no fat. But most importantly I will not
be without something sweet. I mix my own gatorade with that powder stuff and
mix it pretty strong.

 

[AnabolicDiabetic]

I'm 99% sure insulin sensitivity is worst in the morning. Also, I don't think taking slin on your off days will do much for you that only taking it on workout days wouldn't.

 

[acneman]

i think i read that first in flex magazine not that you cant take it in the morning just to always take it after training because the insulin will act preferentialy(sp) on the muscles and not on the fat cells thats why i said it would make you fat and be cool im not downin you i just dont agree with you. think i read it in testosterone.com as well. it will help you grow without training but without training it will help your fat grow too thats all.

i do agree that if you are using every day your limit of 14 days should be followed so we do agree on somethings

 

[acneman]

hey anabolic little help please what do you think about the safety plan.

too much? not enough?

 

[FlexManning]

First of all, if insulin sensitivity is not worst in the morning. I don't know how insulin
sensitivity varies if you are diabetic. If you notice, they recommend taking creatine
in the morning on nontraining days. Why do you think that is? Is it because you
have shitty insulin sensitivity then and you would want as much creatine as
possible to turn into creatinine? No it's because that is your most insulin sensitive
time besides after training.
Also, acneman, you seem to agree that 14 days, using slin daily is feasible. What
would you do, train everyday? You should take it everyday because you are trying
to superload nutrients in a very small amount of time. For instance, most studies
show that you reach your peak as far as creatine storage in two weeks or less
when you are loading creatine. So why wouldn't you want to be loading
creatine and glutamine everyday for that period? And again, many writers
agree that the morning is a good time to take insulin. No flames intended.

 

[AnabolicDiabetic]

Its good for those just starting out. I personally prefer to respond to individual concerns because its exceedingly difficult to generalize about people's reactions to insulin. Any posts showing the potential dangers of insulin are helpful. There are always new guys looking for info

 

[acneman]

FlexManning
"Also, acneman, you seem to agree that 14 days, using slin daily is feasible. What
would you do, train everyday?"

no i said if you were taking it every day you should def limit to 14 days for safety reasons

as far as working out everyday a lot of people work out on a body part routine of 5 days a week.


but again no. i would only use it a few times a week as stated in my original post that way your body must take up the insulin load for several days a week.

now i find your nutrient loading theory cool i would like to know if it is an original theory or if you got it from somewhere else.

anabolic thanks anyway i guess it is tough to cover everything but i thought that would be safe for most people. thats what i was aiming for.

 

[Scott Steinner]

I don't think I will ever use it, I am scared to dead for it...

 

[ironmaster]

Hey, AD, hows the Anger Management classes going....hehe. I agree, it's so hard to generalize about insulin........esp. when we don't know what type of insulin the person is injecting. A hefty shot of humalog will spike a guy real fast, could be hours with other kinds. Even real experienced users get a surprise from the insulin every once in a while........had one last night, way past the anticipated time.

 

[acneman]

good to finaly meet you ironmaster.
heard only good things.

now true i said i recomended humulin R or humalog(thanks i edited my post) whereas i should of said only use those so that this safety plan will work. the N type could spike hours later. think i should change it to that effect?

 

[FlexManning]

What does insulin do besides store nutrients? It is a signal to muscle and fat cells to
store certain nutrients.

 

[Scott Steinner]

Hormonal causes of hypoglycemia are quite rare. The most notorious cause is hyperinsulinism. The overload of insuline cause severe hypoglycemia. In addition, the fatty acid oxidation is being suppressed. So at the same time there is both a fatty acid oxidation and glucose shortage, having an energy crisis as a result.

The combination of low blood sugar values, low concentration of free fatty acids and the lack of ketosis is highly characteric for hyperinsulinism. This is the case with overgrowth of insulin-producing beta-cells in the pancreas and as a side-effect of medications, e.g. by a high insulin-dosis with a diabetic patient.

Hypoglycemia can be an caused by hypothyroid too.

 

[acneman]

flexmanning
uh... it forces glucose out of the blood into tissue. and if you dont have enough glucose(brain uses glucose exclusively) in your blood you go into coma and die.


is that what you meant or am i missing the point

 

[ironmaster]

Hey, acne....real good post, man. Anything that gets rookies to think before they inject is a good thing. If you added in the nutrient timing for the various types of insulin, it would make for a comprehensive post.
But how do you do that with the all-day release types? Theoretically, the long release could actually be more beneficial, but BB's tend to use the short acting varieties so as to simplify the scheduling of carbs and proteins, and the resriction of fats. I'm going to try it sometime on a pure bulking cycle and see what happens.....just eat like crazy the whole time. I know how to cut, in case it is poor quality weight.

 

[Scott Steinner]

Other diseases that can lead to hypoglycemia

Malnutrition
Malnutrition, as with marasmus and kwashiorkor, is a common cause of hypoglycemia in third world countries. No storage energy from fats or proteins is available, and one is prone to low blood sugar values when not eating.

Metabolic diseases
Metabolic diseases, where hypoglycemia often is the main symptom, are the following:

a) glycogenoses
With no disease the liversize is so big as with glycogenose diseases. Patients have a swollen belly and a typical body build. Blood and urine lactose levels are strongly increased.

b) gluconeogenesis defects
Patients with decreased gluconeogenesis are difficult to recognise. Patients often show neurological disorders, like balancing and eye problems, and a strongly increased lactose concentration in the blood.

c) galactosemia, fructosemia
Also called galactose intolerance or fructose intolerance are the only metabolic diseases where hypoglycemia occurs *after* ingestion of these sugars. Patients often have a natural dislike of these particular sugars. The sugars can be found in the urine.

d) breakdown disorder of amino acids
With breakdown disorders of the amino acids leucine, isoleucine and valine the person sometimes have a particular body and urine smell. When an infection is present, severe auto-intoxication will develop due to increase of certain organic acids in the blood.

e) breakdown disorder of fatty acids
Cases differ from light hypoglycemia to a state with severe liver disorders, looking similar to Reye disease. Symptoms can occur after infection, fasting and sometimes a high fat eating pattern. The disorder can be diagnosed by investigating the disability of these patients to produce ketons during fasting and overproduction of abnormal fatty acids (dicarbon acids), which are release in the urine.


Liver diseases
With liver diseases with a strong decay of liver cells the production and release of glucose is disturbed, but the hypoglycemia as a result of this is part of a much more serious disturbance of other metabolic processes. Glycogenoses and gluconeogenesis defects (see above) are liver-related metabolic diseases which may lead to hypoglycemia. Alcohol abuse may cause hypoglycemia too.

 

[Scott Steinner]

What does insulin do besides store nutrients? It is a signal to muscle and fat cells to
store certain nutrients.

The actions of insulin have been known for quite some time

membrane transport of glucose, amino acids and certain ions;
increased storage of glycogen;
formation of triglycerides;
stimulation of DNA, RNA and protein synthesis.

Three other peptide hormones are produced in the islets of Langerhans in the pancreas:

glucagon, consisting of 29 amino acids, in the A cells;
somatostatin, a cyclic 14 amino acid polypeptide, in the D cells;
pancreatic polypeptide, 36 amino acids with an amide C terminus, in the PP cells.

 

[acneman]

thanks ironmaster im gonna hit the hay cant watch anymore of godfather II on amc gotta sleep but ill look into that tomorro and see if i cant edit the original to include the info(dont know it all off hand will have to search)

scott i saw some of that stuff in my nutrition class at the university just not sure how it applies. i know hypoglycemia can be caused by other than exogenic insulin but the thread is trying to deal with the exogenic insulin hypoglycemia exclusively.

 

[FlexManning]

Scott, do you not realize that almost everything you just said means to store nutrients?
Acneman, of course it takes sugar out of the blood stream and stores it in tissue.
Again that is what I said, insulin stores nutrients. I didn't think it took the nutrients
directly from your stomach and put them in muscle and fat.
Can about five more people come up with posts that mean insulin stores nutrients
and then flame me for saying insulin stores nutrients?
That would be fantastic if you could just get right on that for me.
Of course we can get into the stimulation of protein synthesis and all these
indirect things, but if you were to describe what testosterone does to somebody
from another planet would you reel off a list of 50 things?

 

[acneman]

hey scott good point there is a lot more going on than people think. the glucagon can be released by consuming too much protein after workout and thats bad when relying on endogenic insulin by consuming carbs after a workout because glucagon inhibits insulin response and converts amino acids to glucose its called gluconeogenesis.

check this out
http://www.testosterone.net/html/body_142post.html

 

[FlexManning]

Let me answer that question by saying you would talk about effects on skeletal muscle
and maybe secondary sexual characteristics and wouldn't bust out the new study
saying testosterone can have good effects on your heart.

 

[acneman]

alright this is the last one for tonight

flexmanning yes thats storing nutrients the only problem i have and what this thread is dedicated to is the safety of the person using slin because it can "store" so much so fast that it kills you. thats all im not flaming or degrading you for your choice of use. i think the "loading of nutrients kinda like loading creatine" theory is kinda neat but i feel it will store nutrients in your fat cells also but i like ironmasters response to that "i know how to cut" dont get mad at me im not argueing with you at least i dont think i am.

i dont say this often cause most of the time i dont want it but...
peace man

ill check this thread tomorrow

 

[FlexManning]

Godfather II is on? Shit!

 

[Scott Steinner]

Godfather II is on? Shit!

LOL

 

[acneman]

allright goddamit one more

flexmanning

yeah i recorded godfather 1 last night and im experimenting with getting gfathr II on the same tape slp. if it works it will cut off the credits at the end ill know tomorro and let you know

 

[FlexManning]

Taking insulin everyday for a short period is not a new concept or anything. I first
took interest in insulin when I was reading Greg Zulak's column. I paid attention
because he was saying what he had learned in a conversation with Dan
Duchaine. The guidelines are fairly simple. People fuck up because people always
fuck up. People that shouldn't be using slin use it and don't give it respect. For
Humulin R, 1 iu per 15 pounds of bodyweight with the appropriate amount of
carbs was his standard. I forget how many carbs that came out to for me, I was
using 15 ius. From there you adjust up or down based on your experience. You
use everyday for your slin cycle because you want to load your nutrients and then
quit using it. Don't mess around with taking a few times a week for extended
periods. You want to reach a peak fast, not try to continually gain in a linear
fashion for the duration of your anabolic cycle. Using sporadically is dangerous
and not the most effective way. That is my opinion from my research.
And those carbs and protein are for four hours of course. I believe the target
is at least 30 grams of carbs per iu over a 4 hour period.

 

[FlexManning]

peace

 

[AnabolicDiabetic]

FLEX- within this small article is why you can be least insulin resistant in the morning. This dawn effect, when present, is very obvious for diabetics but often goes un-noticed by normal people who are unaware of the amount of insulin they are producing.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why is my morning bg high? What are dawn phenomenon, rebound, and Somogyi effect?
========================================================================

This section is written by Charles Coughran <[email protected]>.

There are three main causes of high morning fasting bg. In decreasing order of probability they are insufficient insulin, dawn phenomenon, and Somogyieffect (aka rebound). Insufficient or waning insulin is simple. If the effective duration of intermediate or long acting insulin ends sometime during the night, the relative level of circulating insulin will be too low, and your blood sugars will rise.

Dawn phenomenon refers to increased glucose production and insulin resistance brought on by the release of counterregulatory hormones in the early morning hours near waking. It happens in normal people as well as in diabetics; in nondiabetics it shows up as measurably increased insulin secretion around dawn. Dawn phenomenon is variable in strength both within the population and over time in individuals. It can show up as either high fasting glucose levels or an increased insulin requirement to cover breakfast compared to equivalent meals at other times of day.

Somogyi effect refers to a rebound in bg after nocturnal hypoglycemia which occurs during sleep with the patient not experiencing any symptoms. The hypoglycemia triggers the release of counterregulatory hormones. Somgoyi effect appears to be less prevalent than previously thought. While it does occur, some episodes of hyperglycemia following hypoglycemia are actually waning insulin levels following an insulin peak with medium acting insulin. This can be difficult to sort out.

The best way to sort it out is to test every couple of hours from bedtime to morning.

If your bg rises all, or much of the night, it is a lack of circulating insulin.

If it is stable all night, but rises sharply sometime before you wake in the morning, it is dawn phenomenon.

If your bg declines to the point of a hypoglycemic reaction, it is *possibly* Somogyi effect.

You may have to test on several nights to nail the problem. Once you have figured out the problem you and your doctor can discuss changes in your insulin regimen to correct it. The answer depends critically on your particular circumstances.

 

[AnabolicDiabetic]

This is the difference between book knowledge that would lead you to believe the very logical assumption of high insulin sensitivity in the morning and REAL WORLD experience that often goes against logic. Do believe what people tell you, believe what works- AD

 

[FlexManning]

It would be my guess from the article you posted that one of the main hormones
involved in that mixture would be cortisol. Cortisol raises blood sugar. It does so
by eating up tissues-fat and muscle. What happens when you become diabetic?
Cortisol rates skyrocket and your muscle and fat waste away because your body
needs to use them to raise blood sugar. Your blood sugar is much higher than
normal. And how do you blunt the cortisol and bring your blood sugar down?
Insulin.
Your post indicates to me that some people can have unexpectedly high blood
sugar in the morning because cortisol is running rampant and eating up muscle.
Insulin and carbs counteracts cortisol.
Eating up tissue is just a simple way of putting it. Of course cortisol doesn't "eat"
anything but is just a signal, in some ways the opposite signal of insulin.

 

[AnabolicDiabetic]

Cortisol would indeed be involved in insulin resistance issues noted above. Other mechanisms are also at work and are not understood very well since this can be a persistently stubborn problem for diabetics. The point of the post was to show that while you can safely say insulin resistance should be lowest in the morning when that specific system is ISOLATED, in real world experience, all the systems of the body react to one another and hence negate simplistic theories based on islating specific causes and effects.

 

[FlexManning]

In any case, insulin sensitivity aside for a moment, we can probably agree that
in the morning you have raised cortisol and lowered levels of glycogen. This alone
indicates to me that your body will be somewhat busy replenishing glycogen and
amino acids, thus offsetting some of the fat storage effects of insulin. As I said,
the everyday approach is used by many and I feel it is the best way-everyday,
load, load, load, then get off after a very short cycle of insulin. This necessitates
the morning injection. Again I train in the morning so it works out that the injection
is at the same time whether I train or not. I feel that the morning is the best
time to train when using insulin. At the very least it is safer because there is no
risk that you go to sleep and end up in a coma.

 

[acneman]

this isnt going the way i wanted but the debate is cool. where are the other smarties?

 

[acneman]

true story

me and a bud, bud shot insulin we were going to get somethin to eat he sees a chick he wants to talk to. we talked for just a few minutes, less than 15 and he lookes at this girl smiles and kinda laughs funny. ok. i tell her bye and i take him to get the food. pull up at the restaurant and i get out. he dosent. "i say come on dude." he says "fuck you" ok. i tell him to chew these glucose pills we had bought for just such an emergency and he says... guess what ..."fuck you"

im worried now and i grab the tabs and shove one at his mouth. so he shoves his fist in my mouth. i get up with a busted lip and hes still in the car. luckly a buddy of ours drove up and he jumped in the car on this dude and holds him down and i used a pressure point on his jaw to make him yell and shove 2 tabs of glucose in his mouth. a bunch of people were gatherd by now and we told them he was diabetic and could some one please bring us a coke. about 30 seconds away from me yelling for someone to dial 911 you could see the look on his face change from crazed combative pale sweaty to tired confused embarresed. "whats going on" he says i tell him to drink all the coke and eat 2 more tabs and we order the food and tell him what happened. the waitress that brought the coke out to us at the car was cute and thought my friend was cute to but he was so embarrased by what happened we didnt go there for months and when we did she had quit. he was embarrased... i was just glad he was alive.

hey man ive lived it. im not saying dont use slin the greatest strength gains ive had were using slin but i am saying be careful.

the one tape godfather 1 and 2 thing didnt work flex.

 

[FlexManning]

You know, a good idea for safety is to have something printed out, like a hardcopy
from the net or a magazine article, in front of you. Read it over and over before
you ever use insulin, and keep it nearby when you use. Do the math on the carbs
and ius of insulin long before you use and go over and over it. Have all the carbs
you need and more ready to go. Definitely have lots of sweet liquids nearby.
A guy who reads an article over and over and keeps it front of him with premixed
shakes and gatorade is a guy who won't freak out like that.

 

[acneman]

hey flex i agree but even diabetics with experience sometimes miss the warning signs and once your weird its too late youll get weirder and wont care cause your trippin. ive got an article from flex magazine and some stuff from testosterone.com but i personally wouldnt want to do it unless i had someone looking out for me and ive used it more than once and never had a problem so while i might not be an expert . i am certainly a vet in regards to this. but thanks for helping get a little attention to this thread which i think is the best one ive ever done, and i appreciate your input.

 

[WeeMan]

bump

 

[acneman]

hey sk. we get it you know how to search.

this was a good one wasnt it. whoever wrote that original post was a smart guy...

 

[acneman]

dude honestly (and not talkin about my post. talkin about the last 2)

you have proven that you can get great info on the search and just because it was posted a year ago dosent make it out of date