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I'm going to be controversial here and ask, your opinion.
- Thread starter Lumberg
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GoldenDelicious
New member
sure, there are people like that. but you seem to forget, i live in a military town. i see soldiers EVERYWHERE. i talk to them all the time. i know many, many many soldiers, sailors, and a smattering of pilots...and let me tell you, for the most part, they all joined because it is in THEIR self interest to do so.AristotleBC said:
as for cops, firefighters etc (i happen to know a few of these too) - let me tell you, money is one of the first thing they talk about after getting into the force. "After 3 years, ill be on 60 grand!"
SOME soldiers are patriots. SOME policemen do what they do out of love for their city/people/to stop bad guys. SOME politicians care about people and are trying to make it better...but MOST of hese people are in it for number one, and politicians have NO compunction about glamorising the deaths of certain selfish individuals to achieve their own ends, which includs making reverent speeches about "honor" "duty" and "selflessness".....and im sorry, in the context of my not inconsiderable life experience...its a load of shit. a policeman dies, and police comissioner/governor HAS to make a speech at their funeral, and so they talk about the dead officer as if they were the best guy in the world etc etc...to make the family and other cops feel better about the situation, to strengthen their resolve, and to use guilt to deflect their minds from obvious thoughts such as "what if it were me in that coffin?"
and if my idiocy is growing in proportion to my post count, aristotle...im still a damn sight smarter than youll ever be, so why dont you just shut up and enjoy the view of your large intestine?
AristotleBC
New member
No you're not.
The self-interest argument can be argued invalid on several fronts, although I'm not interested in getting into more philosophy with you than this following point requires:
Virtually everything people do is self-based. Even if you love your country and serve primarily for that reason, you are still doing something which you find pleasing, to you.
If I love my country and because I do I'm going to work to further its goals, I'm helping something that I love, which is personally pleasing to me.
It is not as cynical as "only for the money," but the presence of a self-centric motivation remains.
It is like this with most anything. Whether an action is "self-centered" or not should not be a sole standard used to judge that action, as all actions are self-oriented to some degree. The outcome is also very important as a standard.
Our legal system is certainly both outcome and intention-based.
If you kill someone with intent, it's 2nd degree murder. If you plan to do so, and do, it's 1st degree. Intent+outcome
If you meant to help someone who uses drugs by giving them a bad dose hoping they quit, and they die from it accidentally, it's manslaughter. (Or murder depending on how the court judges your INTENT with the OUTCOME.)
Both are important and you are tiresomely cynical.
A soldier may join for money, but he probably loves his country to some degree as well. Soldiering isnt that lucrative. If he dies defending people those people should honor and appreciate him, which is what we do.
Cynicism as a premise is also a logical fallacy.
The self-interest argument can be argued invalid on several fronts, although I'm not interested in getting into more philosophy with you than this following point requires:
Virtually everything people do is self-based. Even if you love your country and serve primarily for that reason, you are still doing something which you find pleasing, to you.
If I love my country and because I do I'm going to work to further its goals, I'm helping something that I love, which is personally pleasing to me.
It is not as cynical as "only for the money," but the presence of a self-centric motivation remains.
It is like this with most anything. Whether an action is "self-centered" or not should not be a sole standard used to judge that action, as all actions are self-oriented to some degree. The outcome is also very important as a standard.
Our legal system is certainly both outcome and intention-based.
If you kill someone with intent, it's 2nd degree murder. If you plan to do so, and do, it's 1st degree. Intent+outcome
If you meant to help someone who uses drugs by giving them a bad dose hoping they quit, and they die from it accidentally, it's manslaughter. (Or murder depending on how the court judges your INTENT with the OUTCOME.)
Both are important and you are tiresomely cynical.
A soldier may join for money, but he probably loves his country to some degree as well. Soldiering isnt that lucrative. If he dies defending people those people should honor and appreciate him, which is what we do.
Cynicism as a premise is also a logical fallacy.
GoldenDelicious
New member
AristotleBC said:
calling me a "fucking moron" with idiocy growing in proportion to my post count, based on your perception of soldierly altruism (which is clearly where our viewpoints diverge) highlights your intolerance of differing viewpoints, and in my mind, undermines your ability to think logically....and so i dont give a shit what you have to say about me
as i said earlier, i grew up in a military city, and have personal relationships with many members of the armed forces...and unless you would have me accept that the mindset of the australian defense force is at complete odds with that of the military personell you interact with...and i will NOT...then i will not step off my previous comments. What you perceive as cynicism may be a result of the differences between the personell you and i interact with (and our perception of them) or your own misperception/bias...but i will not accept your measley opinion over comments made openly and repeatedly by the vast majority of service members i come into contact with. perception doesnt come into it on my end...many soldiers i know loathe the military, and are vocal about it. patriotism? please.
hotzie
New member
sounds like the australian defense force is a bunch of non loyal SOB's. i know here there are some who do not like being in the military , but they are god damn proud to serve in the united states military , where patriotism and loyalty exist and are the norm.GoldenDelicious said:calling me a "fucking moron" with idiocy growing in proportion to my post count, based on your perception of soldierly altruism (which is clearly where our viewpoints diverge) highlights your intolerance of differing viewpoints, and in my mind, undermines your ability to think logically....and so i dont give a shit what you have to say about me
as i said earlier, i grew up in a military city, and have personal relationships with many members of the armed forces...and unless you would have me accept that the mindset of the australian defense force is at complete odds with that of the military personell you interact with...and i will NOT...then i will not step off my previous comments. What you perceive as cynicism may be a result of the differences between the personell you and i interact with (and our perception of them) or your own misperception/bias...but i will not accept your measley opinion over comments made openly and repeatedly by the vast majority of service members i come into contact with. perception doesnt come into it on my end...many soldiers i know loathe the military, and are vocal about it. patriotism? please.
This is all true, but it's not 100% of the truth. I've known a great deal of military people & a smattering of cops. It's human nature to look out for #1. But you can't tell me, when a cop is facing down a criminal, or a soldier is facing down an enemy, they aren't scared shitless. And they do what they do anyways. What the Mandarins say in these cases is for those left behind & for their own sense of guilt. When a police chief is eulogizing a cop, while staring at his widow & children, he's probably feels some guilt. That's what people need to do to keep on going.GoldenDelicious said:
Everything everyone does is at least partially self-motivated, from Mother Teresa - Achieving Grace before God, to Adolf Hitler - He didn't care about no thousand year reich, he just wanted the world to himself & didn't care how many died to get it.
I love my wife dearly, and would do anything for her, but not just for her. I also do it partly because it feels good, to me, to make her happy.
a life is a life bor, there's no difference, the issue you are really discussing is media biases, and that's no news. Media likes stories that get your attention
How many people have been murdered since natalee holloway went missing?
How many were murdered during the entire Laci Peterson shit?
media likes cops, military people, "protectors" and pretty white people.
Asked and answered, no charge.
How many people have been murdered since natalee holloway went missing?
How many were murdered during the entire Laci Peterson shit?
media likes cops, military people, "protectors" and pretty white people.
Asked and answered, no charge.
patsfan1379
New member
MattTheSkywalker said:
it wasnt really that tough a question.
AristotleBC
New member
GoldenDelicious said:calling me a "fucking moron" with idiocy growing in proportion to my post count, based on your perception of soldierly altruism (which is clearly where our viewpoints diverge) highlights your intolerance of differing viewpoints, and in my mind, undermines your ability to think logically....and so i dont give a shit what you have to say about me
as i said earlier, i grew up in a military city, and have personal relationships with many members of the armed forces...and unless you would have me accept that the mindset of the australian defense force is at complete odds with that of the military personell you interact with...and i will NOT...then i will not step off my previous comments. What you perceive as cynicism may be a result of the differences between the personell you and i interact with (and our perception of them) or your own misperception/bias...but i will not accept your measley opinion over comments made openly and repeatedly by the vast majority of service members i come into contact with. perception doesnt come into it on my end...many soldiers i know loathe the military, and are vocal about it. patriotism? please.
My point was focused on the standards of judging action, "intent+outcome" rather than your experience with soldiers personally.
I believe even someone who joins for money but still risks their life is doing something worth lauding
You're not really a "moron" per say but my opinion of your viewpoints on America generally is as you can guess
Y_lifter
New member
Lumberg said:
I have noticed that more and more, we as a society and the media are starting to realize that those that choose to GO into harms way deserve our gratitude and respect while they are alive and able to appreciate it.
To answer your question IMO as to why they deserve more attention than someone that is murdered or killed in a car crash. I think it is because they choose to go, as part of a job, into dangerous deadly situations in order to "help society and help those that can't"..
This is what separates them from other jobs that are dangerous or deadly such as alaskan crab fisherman or race drivers.. And the real threat of death is what separates them from other typically non lethal professions that also help society and those less fortunate like teachers, social workers etc.,
Someone said Blame the media for why they get more attention than the average hard working citizen. I would agree, and also think that Most if not all of the people doing these types of jobs would not want the attention, and feel they are doing this for reasons of their own accord,
not for the attention.
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