How lean can you get w/o AS?

[latona]

I don't want to use gear, so I'm wondering how low I can get my bodyfat without it.

Is it possible for the average guy to get below 10%? I think I tend to store fat more easily than most (or maybe I just eat more ho-hos than most), but I'd love to get down to 7-8% if possible. I'm not sure if that is realistic though.

Also, if you are not using gear, is it inevitable that you will lose muscle along with fat, when trying to get lean? I've already lost about 10lbs, but I feel like at least half of it was muscle.

thanks.

 

[GinNJuice]

Also, if you are not using gear, is it inevitable that you will lose muscle along with fat, when trying to get lean?

Yea, I would say it is inevitable... if you can prove me wrong.... PLEASE do so.

 

[JohnnyO]

What about DNP? It preserves muscle a bit, and it's not technically an A/S?

 

[Jimsbbc]

clenbuteral is not a steroid, so you could use that. That is the only thing that has worked for me to lose noticeable amounts of body fat. It kicks ass

 

[HappyScrappy]

or penut butter?

 

[Warik]

Is it possible for the average guy to get below 10%?

I live below 10% and I believe Havoc does too. It helps having the genetics for it, but it's certainly not impossible for the "average" guy. Just because it doesn't take 2 or 3 weeks to get below 10% doesn't mean it's not possible.

-Warik

 

[latona]

thanks guys. I have been using hydroxycut and I might give clenbuterol a shot. DNP is great if you need to lose weight really fast, but I'm not in a huge rush, and I was miserable on it, so I don't think I'd do it again any time soon.

But my question is, even with those substances, if you are not using gear to preserve muscle, canyou still bring your bf down to 7-8%?

 

[latona]

Re: Re: How lean can you get w/o AS?

I live below 10% and I believe Havoc does too. It helps having the genetics for it, but it's certainly not impossible for the "average" guy. Just because it doesn't take 2 or 3 weeks to get below 10% doesn't mean it's not possible.

-Warik

thanks, I didn't see your post. As I said, I'm not in any huge rush, and if it takes me three to four months or half a year, that's fine... as long as I'm making progress.

I'm sure that there are cases of people living below 10%, but I think that people like you and Havoc, are probably exceptions. Before I started working out, I was really skinny, but I never had abs. I'm just wondering if after three months am I going to be hard and cut or just smaller and softer?

 

[JohnnyO]

I imagine a lot will depend on diet then. To minimize the loss of muscle, I would:

Up the protein (maybe a low cal protien shake every two hours while awake)

Keep the calorie deficit to around 500 cals .. (any more will start too much catabolism)

You won't lose fat very fast, but you will lose, and I think maintain the majority of muscle following this.

What do y'all think?

 

[plifter]

Of course you can drop below 10% naturally. Haven't you ever seen a starving person.

 

[HappyScrappy]

latona, I think we both know that the answer lies within the guacamole burger.... mmmmmm

 

[latona]

mmmm, the only thing better than a guacamole burger is a guacamole burger with a side of fries
(I'm not letting you trick me into ordering salad again!)

 

[latona]

Of course you can drop below 10% naturally. Haven't you ever seen a starving person.

umm, that's not exactly the look I was going for.

 

[HappyScrappy]

I'll keep you posted how my new diet works out, but I'm thinking of getting off the drugs too (well... sort of off) and working the kinks out of my diet first. the drugs are only good if you have everything else right and I don't.
I have a pretty trad diet right now:

1 - rice cakes and penutbutter and milk
or
oatmeal and egg whites
(either way, strive for at least 40g protein)

2 - protein shake (thanks George for making this easier on me with a goo dtasting shake with lots of protein - you are a savior)

3 - 1 cup brown rice, 1 can of tuna, 1 cup mixed veggies, 2 tbs of salsa with garlic

4- protein shake

5 - same as meal 3

6 - protein shake

do this for mon-fri, eat whatever I want on the weekend and have an occasional slip up during the week but as few as possible.
I have cans of penuts and mixed nuts on my desk if I feel like a snack, but so far I don't.

and I'm taking ripped fuel and... well, and anavar.

if - no when - I start seeing results, I'll keep you posted.

 

[HappyScrappy]

I'm outta here. this is my first night that I head for home before 8 in over a week now - whoo hoo!

 

[latona]

HappyScrappy --
I think you and I are in the same boat. I'll reconsider drugs after I feel like I've mastered everything else.

Quick question before you go: What is your total caloric intake each day? what is the nutritional breakdown (%protien,%carbs, %fat(?

thanks.

 

[cozmokramer]

yes its definitely possible... I'm doing it now... its all about diet... just don't be scared of fat.. most don't consume enough fat.. but you need to take in fat to burn it!

 

[JustinM]

i have a very fast metabolism...i have never been above 9% and the lowest ive been was 6%..i usually am around 8 though...its possible..just need a lot of discipline..peace and gl

 

[HappyScrappy]

I think you and I are in the same boat. I'll reconsider drugs after I feel like I've mastered everything else.

Quick question before you go: What is your total caloric intake each day? what is the nutritional breakdown (%protien,%carbs, %fat(?

Give me a sec - you'd think I'd have this right on the tip of my tongue - but you'd be wrong. dead wrong.
this will be a stream of consciousness post with a break to move my laundry and read some labels.

meal1:
if rice cakes and penut butter then:
rice cakes(x3):45 cals/10g carb/0g fat/0g prot
penut butter(x1.5):200 cals/6g carb/16g fat/7g prot
milk(2cups 1%):220 cals/26g carb/5g fat/16g prot
TOTAL: 655cals/65g carb/29g fat/26g prot

or egg whites and oatmeal
egg whites:120 cals/0g carb/0g fat/24g prot
oatmeal:110 cals/20g carb/2g fat/4g prot
milk(2cups 1%):220 cals/26g carb/5g fat/16g prot
TOTAL: 450cals/46g carb/7g fat/44g prot

meal2:
protein powder:334 cals/19g carb/2g fat/60g prot
milk(2cups 1%):220 cals/26g carb/5g fat/16g prot
TOTAL: 554 cals/45g carb/7g fat/76g prot

meal3:
tuna(1 can):150 cals/0g carb/1g fat/32.5g prot
mixed veg(1 cup):80 cals/14g carb/0g fat/3g prot
brown rice(1 cup):300 cals/66g carb/1g fat/8g prot
salsa:15 cals/3g carbs/0g fat/0g prot
TOTAL:545 cals/83g carbs/2g fat/43.5g prot

meal4:
shake again, no change

meal5:
tuna and such again, no change

meal6:
shake again, but with creatine, glutamine, and flax seed oil
protein powder:334 cals/19g carb/2g fat/60g prot
milk(2cups 1%):220 cals/26g carb/5g fat/16g prot
flax seed oil:130 cals/0g carb/14g fat/0g prot
TOTAL:684 cals/45g carb/21g fat/76g prot

Grand Totals for each day:
655cals/65g carb/29g fat/26g prot
or
450cals/46g carb/7g fat/44g prot
554 cals/45g carb/7g fat/76g prot
545 cals/83g carbs/2g fat/43.5g prot
554 cals/45g carb/7g fat/76g prot
545 cals/83g carbs/2g fat/43.5g prot
684 cals/45g carb/21g fat/76g prot

so depending on what I have for breakfast:
choice 1) 3537 cals/366g carbs/68g fat/341g prot
choice 2) 3332 cals/347g carbs/46g fat/359g prot

that looks high, but in reality I don't usually get the breakfast b/c I've been waking up too late and needing to get to work - so take off 500 or so cals off that.

on weekends I eat ice cream - usually about 2000cals worth each day.

so far this has been working for me but now that I've written it all out, it looks like I could get less protein and probably less carbs - I think I'll make it 1/2 cup brown rice in each thing and maybe just milk and oatmeal for breakfast.

 

[HappyScrappy]

okay - at this point probably nobody cares - but after seeing the totals of what I was taking in, I've decided to change it a bit and then use this as a reference via the search if I need to recall this since it was a pain in the ass to type out with my net connection half busted and all...

I think if I take the lower cal one and only have oatmeal and milk for breakfast, and then not use milk in the shakes during the day and only the one at night, and then use half as much rice....

330cals/46g carb/7g fat/20g prot
334 cals/19g carb/2g fat/60g prot
395 cals/50g carbs/2g fat/40g prot
334 cals/19g carb/2g fat/60g prot
395 cals/50g carbs/2g fat/40g prot
684 cals/45g carb/21g fat/76g prot

NEW GRAND TOTAL:
2472 cals/229g carbs/36g fat/296 prot

muuuuch better.

and they say I'm obsessive compulsive...

 

[flexed1]

Without a doubt yes. I have seen folks below 6 (with calipers) who are natural. steriods make you're body vascular and hard but cardio and diet remove and reduce bodyfat. I htink you would need the thermos to speed the system and cardio much harder than if you where on gear. i have competed natural at 6% but I have also competed at under 3 % not natural . (again with calipers)

 

[bigmag]

My best friend just competed in a BB show at 2%....and he's all natural....no shit....and I totally respect him for it.

 

[latona]

thanks guys. that's really encouraging.

HappyScrappy, thanks for the details of your diet. I'm trying to keep my calories around 3000-3500, but i haven't been very consistent. your diet looks like it is pretty easy to follow (especially the weekend part), so I think I'm going to give it a shot. I guess this means no more sushi nights, though.

 

[Veni-Vidi-Vici]

There are lots of athletes that are well below 10% BF without using gear. Wrestlers in particular are often around 5-6% BF during the season. It takes a very disciplined diet and busting your ass. So is it possible to get below 10%BF with out gear....yes. Is it easy? No. V3

 

[absolute hardgainer]

I am at 8%, without even trying to loose weight or fat.
However before working out I was only at 11%-12% anyway, I am naturally very skinny, ectomorphic.
On the other hand it took me a lot of hard work to put on 45lb of LBM.

hardgainer (!)

 

[HappyScrappy]

thanks guys. that's really encouraging.

HappyScrappy, thanks for the details of your diet. I'm trying to keep my calories around 3000-3500, but i haven't been very consistent. your diet looks like it is pretty easy to follow (especially the weekend part), so I think I'm going to give it a shot. I guess this means no more sushi nights, though.

the diet is incredibly easy and it at least feels like I'm getting results (my tanita would never lie to me and it says I'm down 3% - but I hadn't checked in a while I don't think since I'd been too busy with work to obsess over it).
as for no sushi - fuck that - what do you think I'm eating - brown rice, veggies, and tuna - the only difference with sushi is it costs a lot more and sometimes has raw fish.
or we could always do the guacamole burger

seriously though - one cheat meal in the week isn't going to fuck it up. I've read over and over and certainly feel that my body agrees that 1) if you have one big meal where you indulge all of the cals and fat aren't going to get absorbed from it, but it is instead a consistent diet like that where your body can adapt to absorbing it all, and 2) if you have the little cheat meals occassionally - it helps you stay strong in willpower the rest of the time.
or at least that's how I justify it.

and it is cheap as hell - I was spending $10 a day for lunching out at work everyday, and now I spend about $20-50 a week on food (not counting protein and ice cream).

I still want to add a banana to the oatmeal in the morning and one whole grapefruit somewhere in there.

then I'll be happy with this diet for awhile.

 

[Maximum Intensity]

I have measured out in the high 3% and low 4% prior to competitions. Granted there is a margin of error there but I am all natural and tend to be in top condition when I compete. Yes you tend to lose some muscle, but if you guage it properly and make adjustments on a weekly basis, you can prevent some of that muscle loss from occuring.

 

[HeavyDutyGuy]

Have you heard of the book "Ripped"????

Clarence Bass got down to about 2.4% without roids.