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High protein diet bs??

krishna

New member
I am a personal trainor who is certified in Apex and NASM. None of their stuff or research shows that you need anywhere near 1.5 grams of protein per body weight to lose fat and build muscle. In fact, their studies show that people did better with a balanced ratio of carbs/fats/protein (45/30/25). I did hear from an apex instructor once that high amounts of protein are only necessary for extreme bodybuilding because they weigh more and have higher muscle content. Anybody have any knowledge or science on the matter?
 
there is actually quite a bit of research showing the benefits of high protein intakes and its benefits on LBM gain and retention.
I am Apex and NASM qualified too. I know Neil Spruce personally and he told me that 2 grams per lb of LBM is a baseline for a competitive contest prep bodybuilder. offseason since the carbs are higher you can get away with 1.5 grams
 
Ok so if I up my protein, what should I lower (fat and/or carbs) to stay in a calorie defecit. I've always kept my protein at least as high as my weight. You should check out my pics Wulfgar and I'll tell you my stats, and then maybe you can help me tweak my diet or throw in some advice? I've never seen the research you're talking about; I've mainly just seen the intro stuff they teach you to help with your clients.
 
I have said here for years that 1.5g protein / bodyweight (or more) is a no no. This should be based on lean body mass and 1 gram per lean body mass is more then enough. I hear the guys on gear say they need more and I can understand how gear increases protein synthesis. But that's the key

1. Increase your ability to DIGEST that much protein
2. Increase your ability to SYNTHESIZE that much protein

It's not enough to just push protein down your throat....
 
al420 said:
I think the key is ot remember it is 1.5 per pound of LEAN BODY MASS - most people I talk to, certainly not pros or vets, think the ratio is 1.5 per pound of body weight - not good.


sweet , I guess I learned something new today. I've always gone by the bodyWEIGHT rule. That obviously makes since tho. So I weight 209 and I have an LBM of 179lbs so I need 360 g of protein at most? Sounds more logical . then again I'm not a competitor by no means so I would probably be safe in the 300gram range daily.
 
gjohnson5 said:
I have said here for years that 1.5g protein / bodyweight (or more) is a no no. This should be based on lean body mass and 1 gram per lean body mass is more then enough. I hear the guys on gear say they need more and I can understand how gear increases protein synthesis. But that's the key

1. Increase your ability to DIGEST that much protein
2. Increase your ability to SYNTHESIZE that much protein

It's not enough to just push protein down your throat....

This is in concordance with the studies I've seen from Apex.
 
This thread is eye opening to me. I always thought from my reading that it was 1 to 1.5 grams per body lb. So it is actually per lean body pound. How do I figure out my lean body mass. I am 195 lbs at 15% BF. Thanks.
 
I think it depends on the person hell I got friends that don't even work out and are still big SOB's than I see guys at the gym with there protein and creatine and every other fucking thing weighing in at a buck 50
 
There are actually new studies done in England that are showing that Men only really need .7gm Protein per KG of BW...... Yep, THAT LOW, and the studies were done with Men using AAS..... The studies were posted on another board, and I forget actually where, but I'll look for them..... The studies also showed that Men who eat too much protein actually just teach their bodies how to ELIMINATE IT QUICKLY..... So they body actually turns into a Protein Destroying Machine in a sense..... Again, I'll try to find the studies... Looking now, so don't PM me for them plz....

rizz
 
http://www.unu.edu/Unupress/food2/UID07E/uid07e05.htm

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/6/1588S



Our own findings are derived from body builders (male and female), elite
rowers (male and female), none of whom were taking steroids, and obese women as well
as normal controls of both sexes. These values are shown in Fig. 2 with the regressions of
LBM v. height plotted between the minimum and maximum heights and with group
mean values shown. The influence of sex, height and obesity are clearly apparent.
Calculations made on the basis of similar height (1-7 m) indicate that excess LBM of
male and female athletes were 15-5 and 8.1 kg respectively and that of obese women was
16.8 kg. Calculation of equivalent daily accretion rates which would result in such LBM
expansion requires the time-course of the gain to be known, which we have not
documented. For both male and female athletes, their training and competition had been
proceeding for several years (obesity had been classified as such for >5 years). Assuming
the gain in LBM was made over 3 years (a likely minimum) then the accretion rate is
equivalent to a daily rate of 20-30 mg protein/kg per d for both groups of athletes, a
trivial amount equal to 34% of the dietary reference value (DRV; Department of
Health, 1991). In any case Forbes (1985) argued that athletes may simply be better
endowed with skeletal muscle at the outset, since in longitudinal studies he was unable to
demonstrate significant LBM accretion except where energy intake was excessive. He
concluded that ‘exercise and/or training has not been shown to markedly increase lean
body mass’. His view was that only with the aid of steroids was appreciable gain
achievable, reporting rates of gain of LBM in such body builders of up to 5.4 kg over 6
weeks, equivalent to about 0.3 g protein/kg per d. On the basis of our experience with
‘natural’ body builders, whilst muscle gain is difficult, nevertheless with appropriate
226 D. JOE MILLWARD AND OTHERS
exercise regimens, including concentric contractions, significant muscle hypertrophy
does occur but at a trivial rate as far as protein needs are concerned.

Thus, in the absence of steroid-induced growth, rates of protein accretion with
exercise in adults are trivial accounting for up to 30 mg/kg per d, i.e. 3% of the mean
adult protein intake in the UK (1.15 g/kg per d). Even for steroid abusers exhibiting
maximal rates of growth of LBM, the accretion would only rise to 20% of these average
intakes and of course would be a much lower proportion of the high-protein diet which
such individuals generally take. In any case the increased energy expenditure that
accompanies increased physical activity requires increased food intake and that would
supply increased protein. In the UK at present, average energy intake by males is 1.39
times the resting metabolic rate (RMR) (Gregory et al. 1990). Our studies of body
builders indicate an energy expenditure of 1.97 x RMR (Quevedo et al. 1991), requiring
a 42% increase in energy intake for balance. The average protein intake by the adult
male in the UK is 1.12 g/kg (Gregory et al. 1993), so that assuming that the
protein-energy density in the increased food intake of the body builders is the same as
that of the average UK diet (140 kJ/MJ total energy), they would have a protein intake of
1.58 g/kg, i.e. an extra 0.46 g/kg. Thus, the increased protein intake associated with
satisfying the energy needs on a normal mixed diet will supply at least 50% more protein
than the maximum rate of accretion recorded in the literature for steroid-induced weight
gain. For normal non-drug-abusing athletes, the extra protein intake will be fifteen times
the likely maximum rate of protein accretion."
 
I don't have the reference to hand, but I believe a recent study conducted on internet lifters showed a direct correlation between people saying 'you don't need a lot of protein to grow' and being under 200lbs.

I hear they're currently researching 'you don't need to lift big to get big' and coming to the same conclusions.

seriously, 400-500gs a day works if you're a decent size. Some people have great genetics (vince taylor's 50gs a day anyone?) but if you don't and you're using anabolics then why be lazy.. get the damn food in. If you have digestive problems then those need to be fixed but that's a whole other thread.
 
I watched the Hulk Hogan show, Hogan knows best and his fridge was full of egg whites and he said he ate 12 per day. He is small though . . .
 
Tweakle said:
I don't have the reference to hand, but I believe a recent study conducted on internet lifters showed a direct correlation between people saying 'you don't need a lot of protein to grow' and being under 200lbs.

I hear they're currently researching 'you don't need to lift big to get big' and coming to the same conclusions.

seriously, 400-500gs a day works if you're a decent size. Some people have great genetics (vince taylor's 50gs a day anyone?) but if you don't and you're using anabolics then why be lazy.. get the damn food in. If you have digestive problems then those need to be fixed but that's a whole other thread.

Correlations are speculative at best; they show no cause and effect relationship. Prizz's studies are logical and make sense. Your body can only synthesize so much protein before it breaks it down to use for fuel. If somone is on a high protein, low carb diet, they have even less energy for protein synthesis and their bodies have to destroy the protein to use it for energy. Correlations do make you wonder though. Do you have the study handy?
 
krishna said:
I am a personal trainor who is certified in Apex and NASM. None of their stuff or research shows that you need anywhere near 1.5 grams of protein per body weight to lose fat and build muscle. In fact, their studies show that people did better with a balanced ratio of carbs/fats/protein (45/30/25). I did hear from an apex instructor once that high amounts of protein are only necessary for extreme bodybuilding because they weigh more and have higher muscle content. Anybody have any knowledge or science on the matter?

High protein diets of what type? Just a higher ratio or Keto? For Keto, A sedentary male or female requires .8 grams of protein per pound of LBM (muscle,organs,water) if you are looking to put your body in a Ketogenic state. This amount spares your LBM. For those who are already lean and weight lift, and/or are athletes, 1.0-2.0 g/lb of LBM, depending.

A non-keto diet of 55% protein is considered high protein. Keto is a true fat burning diet totally independent of exercise and not even needed, others are strictly weight loss and dependent on fat-loss specific exercise.

The 1.5-2.0 g/lb theory still applies to BB, combined with carbs and fats. Also, put into context the protein requirement of a competing BB. With all the AAS, IGF, HGH, and T3, thier PTOR (protein turnover rate) is through the roof.

So depending on your bodytype, lifestyle, activity level, AAS usage, the protein ratio per lb of LBM changes. But every variation on high protein diets are beneficial and are proven. We're made of water and protein and we don't have the digestive systems of cattle. It's not rocket science.
 
toxicsambo said:
High protein diets of what type? Just a higher ratio or Keto? For Keto, A sedentary male or female requires .8 grams of protein per pound of LBM (muscle,organs,water) if you are looking to put your body in a Ketogenic state. This amount spares your LBM. For those who are already lean and weight lift, and/or are athletes, 1.0-2.0 g/lb of LBM, depending.

A non-keto diet of 55% protein is considered high protein. Keto is a true fat burning diet totally independent of exercise and not even needed, others are strictly weight loss and dependent on fat-loss specific exercise.

The 1.5-2.0 g/lb theory still applies to BB, combined with carbs and fats. Also, put into context the protein requirement of a competing BB. With all the AAS, IGF, HGH, and T3, thier PTOR (protein turnover rate) is through the roof.

So depending on your bodytype, lifestyle, activity level, AAS usage, the protein ratio per lb of LBM changes. But every variation on high protein diets are beneficial and are proven. We're made of water and protein and we don't have the digestive systems of cattle. It's not rocket science.

Good reply. This seems to be turning into an interesting debate. I'm not taking a side; I just want to learn. Hopefully, we can all come closer to the truth. So far, prizz is the only one posting actual studies.
 
Tweakle said:
I don't have the reference to hand, but I believe a recent study conducted on internet lifters showed a direct correlation between people saying 'you don't need a lot of protein to grow' and being under 200lbs.

I hear they're currently researching 'you don't need to lift big to get big' and coming to the same conclusions.

seriously, 400-500gs a day works if you're a decent size. Some people have great genetics (vince taylor's 50gs a day anyone?) but if you don't and you're using anabolics then why be lazy.. get the damn food in. If you have digestive problems then those need to be fixed but that's a whole other thread.

Tweakle, do you seriously eat 400-500gs of protein a day?
What is your height and weight?

I can say from experience that I can eat less then 300g a day and can weight alot more then my current 235. This is simply because of the quality of the protein and a combination of eating times and the macronutrients consumed.

I would think that at that level of protein consumption
1. A blood urea nitrogen test would show that they are urinating much of that 400-500g of protein out
http://www.webmd.com/hw/kidney_failure/aa36271.asp
2. Lowered body ph due to eating a lack of alkaline foods
http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/salivaphtest.htm
3. Elevated liver enzyme enzymes http://www.medhelp.org/forums/gastro/messages/37841.html
4. Kidney disease http://www.nwkidney.org/home/protein.html
5. the chemical reaction of synthesizing protein leads to ammonia buildup in the body http://www.webmd.com/hw/lab_tests/hw1768.asp


I won't get into the other because they can be lessened and stopped due to supplementation.

But I think that building muscle won't be as effective if we're poisoning our body with excess nutrints that won't be used anyway...
 
gjohnson5 said:
Tweakle, do you seriously eat 400-500gs of protein a day?
What is your height and weight?

I can say from experience that I can eat less then 300g a day and can weight alot more then my current 235. This is simply because of the quality of the protein and a combination of eating times and the macronutrients consumed.

I would think that at that level of protein consumption
1. A blood urea nitrogen test would show that they are urinating much of that 400-500g of protein out
http://www.webmd.com/hw/kidney_failure/aa36271.asp
2. Lowered body ph due to eating a lack of alkaline foods
http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/salivaphtest.htm
3. Elevated liver enzyme enzymes http://www.medhelp.org/forums/gastro/messages/37841.html
4. Kidney disease http://www.nwkidney.org/home/protein.html
5. the chemical reaction of synthesizing protein leads to ammonia buildup in the body http://www.webmd.com/hw/lab_tests/hw1768.asp


I won't get into the other because they can be lessened and stopped due to supplementation.

But I think that building muscle won't be as effective if we're poisoning our body with excess nutrints that won't be used anyway...

Good reply bro.
 
krishna said:
Good reply. This seems to be turning into an interesting debate. I'm not taking a side; I just want to learn. Hopefully, we can all come closer to the truth. So far, prizz is the only one posting actual studies.

Studies for the purpose of what? Plain and simple, you need protein to induce anabolism if you lift. If you don't ingest the correct ratio of proteins as you tear muscle fibers, how can the muscles repair itself, let alone grow? That will result in Catabolism. It's simple physiology. If you want to be a long distance runner, eat pasta all day so you have glycogen overloading your muscles to prevent fatigue and weigh 94 lbs. More muscle will be self-defeating for a runner because more muscle requires more oxygen and increased cardiac output. Every study gets flushed down the toilet because it doesnt use AAS users as subjects. AAS has a profound increase on protein synthesis. That's why Tren is great while cutting because you get increased protein synthesis and a positive nitrogen balance even on a LOW CALORIE DIET. 100 grams of protein can reult in a 15-20lb muscle gain. If you don't think you need adequate protein to build muscle, be my guest. You will lose the battle against nature.

I still don't know what answer youre looking for. Your comment "In fact, their studies show that people did better with a balanced ratio of carbs/fats/protein (45/30/25)" means what? Did better how? To just lose weight? Cut calories, simple. And different ratios effect ppl in different ways just like some gear is phenomonal for one person, but is average for the next. If you ingest an excess amount of calories over your maintenence, even if theyre all proteins, you're body will still convert them to.....fat. Unless you utilze those proteins to build muscle, and if youre on gear, a little goes a long way.

Protein spares and builds LBM no matter how you cut it and that's common knowledge. How much and where you get it is dependent on your needs. Just FYI so you know I'm not some fkn shumuck talking out my ass, I double majored in Respiratory Therapy and English, so I've been though my share of Anatomy/Physiology/Organic Chem/ and Microbiology, etc. Studies are very specific conditions to a certain group of individuals in a specific context, looking for a specific result. So you have to decipher the info correctly.
 
toxicsambo said:
Studies for the purpose of what? Plain and simple, you need protein to induce anabolism if you lift. If you don't ingest the correct ratio of proteins as you tear muscle fibers, how can the muscles repair itself, let alone grow? That will result in Catabolism. It's simple physiology. If you want to be a long distance runner, eat pasta all day so you have glycogen overloading your muscles to prevent fatigue and weigh 94 lbs. More muscle will be self-defeating for a runner because more muscle requires more oxygen and increased cardiac output. Every study gets flushed down the toilet because it doesnt use AAS users as subjects. AAS has a profound increase on protein synthesis. That's why Tren is great while cutting because you get increased protein synthesis and a positive nitrogen balance even on a LOW CALORIE DIET. 100 grams of protein can reult in a 15-20lb muscle gain. If you don't think you need adequate protein to build muscle, be my guest. You will lose the battle against nature.

I still don't know what answer youre looking for. Your comment "In fact, their studies show that people did better with a balanced ratio of carbs/fats/protein (45/30/25)" means what? Did better how? To just lose weight? Cut calories, simple. And different ratios effect ppl in different ways just like some gear is phenomonal for one person, but is average for the next. If you ingest an excess amount of calories over your maintenence, even if theyre all proteins, you're body will still convert them to.....fat. Unless you utilze those proteins to build muscle, and if youre on gear, a little goes a long way.

Protein spares and builds LBM no matter how you cut it and that's common knowledge. How much and where you get it is dependent on your needs. Just FYI so you know I'm not some fkn shumuck talking out my ass, I double majored in Respiratory Therapy and English, so I've been though my share of Anatomy/Physiology/Organic Chem/ and Microbiology, etc. Studies are very specific conditions to a certain group of individuals in a specific context, looking for a specific result. So you have to decipher the info correctly.

The point is that you may not need as much protein as you think to build and preserve lbm. Another point is that protein overload can cause health problems as gjohnson pointed out. Your body can only use so much protein, and if you're not getting the other macronutrients necessary for energy/protein synthesis, your body uses the protein as energy and gets used to destroying the protein instead of utilizing it properly. Basically, your body can only use so much protein properly to build muscle anyway, so why overload it if all it's going to do is cause health problems?
 
GJ, 5'10" and low 230's.

eat 3 solid meals with 12 oz meat and 3 shakes (each with 75g's whey & whole eggs) its pretty easy to get 400g's a day.

Is it all being utilized every day? Probably not. Is that better than having a deficit? Hell yes, my body wants me to be a skinny-fat 170lbs and I don't intend on letting it have it's way, no matter how many studies on obese women and marathon runners 'prove' protien isn't as necessary as pasta :)
 
Lemme help you guys out. On top of steroid to increase protein synthesis. I have went through pubmed and various other studies to find out which supplements have actually been studied to increase people muscle synthesis of protein. These are the 5 main recommendations I have read through as of now in terms of supplementation


1. HMB http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0103.htm
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0103.htm
Nine studies involving HMB supplementation qualified for the meta-analysis; all of these studies involved the supplementation of three grams of HMB per day (the apparent "gold standard" for HMB intake). In these nine studies, the net increase in lean-mass gain for HMB was a statistically significant .28% per week (.49% for HMB vs. .21% for placebo), and the net increase in strength was 1.4% weekly (about 5% against 3.6% for placebo). A 5-percent weekly uptick in bench-press max strength would have you pressing - from a baseline of 60 kg - around 85 kg (187 pounds) in eight weeks.

2. Amino Acids Lysine , Orthinine, and Arginine.

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cach...sine+supplementation&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

Single Amino Acid Supplements In addition to amino acid mixture and whole protein supplements, a number of single amino acid supplements are touted as being pro-anabolic and deserve mention. β-hydroxy-β-methylbutarate (HMB) is a leucine metabolite that is believed to be anti-catabolic, and thus to stimulate a net muscle anabolic state following resistance exercise. HMB has been found to cause significant gains in fat free mass and strength, and to decrease markers of protein catabolism such as plasma creatine phosphokinase and urinary 3-methyhistidine in a dose-response relationship with the amount of HMB ingested per day (12, 13). Glutamine is considered a “conditionally essential” amino acid because it is the most abundant amino acid in muscle and the body’s rate of glutamine synthesis can easily fall below the level required to maintain homeostasis in states ofphysiologic stress (14). It has also been proposed that glutamine can increase intramuscular glycogen levels by serving as a substrate for hepatic gluconeogenesis (14), thus, glutamine is commonly used as a resistance training supplement. Glutamine has 3Dodson: Protein and Amino Acid SupplementationProduced by eScholarship Repository, 2006
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been shown, however, to have no significant benefits versus placebo in terms of increasing fat free mass or strength, or decreasing muscle catabolism over the course of a resistance training program (14). Finally, a number of amino acids including arginine, lysine, and ornithine are touted for their ability to increase plasma levels of growth hormone. Because resistance training itself is a potent stimulus for growth hormone release, however, supplementation with these amino acids has not been conclusively shown to raise growth hormone

3. Colustrum particularly New Life Colustrum Products
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9338422&dopt=Abstract

and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11312068&dopt=Abstract

4. The BCAA Leucine
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16365105&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=12501002&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_docsum

5. Rest!!! Muscles don't grow when being exersized
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=15194677&query_hl=7&itool=pubmed_docsum


Surprisingly glutamine and Creatine were NOT found to increase human muscle protein sythesis in any study that I have currently read through.
 
krishna said:
The point is that you may not need as much protein as you think to build and preserve lbm. Another point is that protein overload can cause health problems as gjohnson pointed out. Your body can only use so much protein, and if you're not getting the other macronutrients necessary for energy/protein synthesis, your body uses the protein as energy and gets used to destroying the protein instead of utilizing it properly. Basically, your body can only use so much protein properly to build muscle anyway, so why overload it if all it's going to do is cause health problems?

Not to be rude but the "points" you are making arent from actual knowledge. Youre guessing what's right and still trying to figure out what the body actually does. Did you actually READ those links? Those links dont even relate to NORMAL HEALTHY humans, let alone AAS users and BB. All those links are under the context of EXTREME PROLONGED KETOSIS and PREEXISTING DISEASE. gjohnson posted these links without any info explaining what they mean. Probably because he doesnt know either. He irresponsibly posted links by doing some half assed google search through his own ignorance on the matter. Sorry gjohnson, but the truth is the truth bro.

.

1) From WebMD:"Heart failure, dehydration, or a diet high in protein can also increase your BUN level." Note the word "can". It's very different than "will". It speaks of "factors" that "can" effect a test. And these are under the context of EXTREME PROLONGED KETOSIS and PREEXISTING DISEASE, more specifically the latter.

2) From alkalize for health, which is nothing but a ph test, talks about high acidity. Well, how does one neutralize blood ph? Through a Daily Multi Vitamin and mineral supplements. DuH...

3) From MedHelp- "It is possible that the diet may be affecting the liver enzymes. One way to tell would be to recheck the enzymes off the diet.
However, I would ensure there isn't anything more serious present."

Again notice the word choice " possible", "may be" and then followed by " I would ensure there ISNT ANYTHING more serious present" lol. THe poster on the forum didnt know how to interpret liver enzymes, yet he thinks he's diseased. Duh...

4) From NWKidney- "If you have kidney disease, physicians caution against eating high levels of protein, which can cause further damage to your kidneys, possibly leading to kidney failure"

The first sentence says it all. A preexisting disease. It doesnt even relate to the majority of living human beings. And also the word choice again " can cause further damage", not "will cause further damage". But I guarantee this patient is still advised to take in at least 1 gr of protein per lb of LBM or else thier body will catabolize itslef. Kidneys are made of protein arent they?

5) WEbMD again- I wont even comment of the stupidity of this link. Again its a test regarding ammonia in cases of disease.


My best advice for you is to get a physiology book or something that explains the actual science behind the body if you want to be a responsible trainer to your clients. Don't relate the rarest of circumstances to everyday life. And don't think the company that certified you are experts. THey run a business and put up safeguards against liability so they dont get sued for some clients bullshit claim. THe fact is very few ppl are admitted into the ER because of ketoacidosis, and disease involving the kidneys and liver can strike anyone regardless of diet. High carbs and saturated fats bare more responsiblility for obesity and heart disease than protein does, besides overeating in general. The body is way more resilient than you think, and a surplus of protein doesnt result in health problems unless the body is subjected to the most extreme and prolonged conditions. Which is rare. Believe me. I hope you can learn something out of this bro. It will help you immensely when you understand what actually goes on in the body.
 
Um, the whole reason I posted this thread is because of knowledge I gained from my Apex certification. I started it to get opinions and have a debate, not a war. I'm not taking sides here buddy. In fact, I usually do take in high levels of protein, but was confused by the Apex stuff. I just want to get both sides of the story and make sure I'm doing things right. I have taken anatomy and physiology classes, and I'm not ignorant to how the body works. That same physiology book that you're saying I should read will tell you that the body will break down excessive amounts of protein for energy in the absence of other essential macronutrients. There are legitimate points to both sides. The reason protein is has less potential for obesity is because it is not readily stored as potential energy. It takes energy to break it down into amino acids and so forth. Some of what GJ was pointing out is that having to break down excessive amounts of protein can have negative health effects. I believe there were links to studies that at least in theory were applied to bb's and steroid users. Again, lets keep this a debate, not a war. I appreciate your knowledge, but not the fact that you treat the other side as ignorant with no knowledge of physiology. Do you have more credentials than the rest of us?
 
krishna said:
Um, the whole reason I posted this thread is because of knowledge I gained from my Apex certification. I started it to get opinions and have a debate, not a war. I'm not taking sides here buddy. In fact, I usually do take in high levels of protein, but was confused by the Apex stuff. I just want to get both sides of the story and make sure I'm doing things right. I have taken anatomy and physiology classes, and I'm not ignorant to how the body works. That same physiology book that you're saying I should read will tell you that the body will break down excessive amounts of protein for energy in the absence of other essential macronutrients. There are legitimate points to both sides. The reason protein is has less potential for obesity is because it is not readily stored as potential energy. It takes energy to break it down into amino acids and so forth. Some of what GJ was pointing out is that having to break down excessive amounts of protein can have negative health effects. I believe there were links to studies that at least in theory were applied to bb's and steroid users. Again, lets keep this a debate, not a war. I appreciate your knowledge, but not the fact that you treat the other side as ignorant with no knowledge of physiology. Do you have more credentials than the rest of us?

gluconeogenesis = the creation of glucose form other nutrients such as amino acids. If this happens your hard earned money just got converted to sugar by your liver and costs ATP in the process. Instead of making your liver work and expending ATP in the process, why not just swallow some glucose and save the ATP for the gym???
 
toxicsambo said:
gjohnson posted these links without any info explaining what they mean. Probably because he doesnt know either. He irresponsibly posted links by doing some half assed google search through his own ignorance on the matter. Sorry gjohnson, but the truth is the truth bro.

*misinformation removed*
.

Wow I didn't even read this but we need to clear some things up. I think you are absolute wrong on most all cases. The point of posting the links was not to follow them to the letter or for them to be 100% scientific. They were intoned as general information. Much of the information on those links was not needed. The point of what I was getting at may have been only a paragraph or so of the noted link. Anyway they were just general information and not getting too scientific. But since I was attacked for posting general knowledge then here goes...

1. BUN test is to determine ones ability to remove urea for your body. There are lots of factors for once BUN to increase but there is good evidence to suggest that a diet 400-500g a day when the person is only utilizing say 300 will cause an increased BUN. An existing disease or dehydration is not the only causes. The main disease the link talked about is liver disease. I will get to that below. But liver disease is a general term. It is not a specific condition of the liver such as Hepatitis. Most any damage to the liver can be categorized as liver disease.

2. No, a vitamin will not do it. This is just silly. A vitamin and mineral THERAPY can help. Not the word therapy as this will take time. In order to re alkalize you need to add high alkaline foods back into your diet and to decrease the acidic one such as many protein sources. Lemon is a good way of doing this. I generally drink coconut milk as it once of the most alkaline foods out there. Another drink is aloe vera juice. But anyway calcium and magnesium are removed from bones to neutralize acid thus our reserves are lowered. Excess acid also reduces the ability of the blood to deliver oxygen to tissues. A low oxygen environment allows viruses and bacteria to thrive and also promotes the growth of cancer. Excess acids cause disease!
This is a systemic problem that a vitamin alone will not fix

3. Can I ask you do you know how to interpret liver enzymes? Do you know what AST (SGOT) or ALT (SGPT) is? Anyway liver problems are generally not acute. For instance cirrhosis takes years to develop. The liver is responsible for filtering chemicals but it also converts chemicals into other chemicals so that they can be disposed of. Many prescription drugs are liver toxic. Many of the foods we eat such as proteins can cause increased liver values of the above 2 enzymes. Alcohol can increase it. Not to mention an acute condition as you have pointed out. Aside from the acute disease or condition, a few of these factors can contribute to liver values being elevated. The link I posted has a person's liver enzymes 5 times above normal just from what they ate. Then why not add some drugs to that. Then add some jack daniels added to the mix of factors elevating liver values...
With elevated enzymes for several factors, do you think a person will start seeing symptoms????

4. This is also another silly comment from you. Renal disease is used as a general term. Any abnormality in kidney function and your doctor can (and probably will) say you have renal disease. Many Americans are classified as having renal disease simply because of how the term is used. Early stage renal damage can go unnoticed for years. There may be no symptoms and can be completely manageable. It generally is not until advanced renal disease or severely lowered renal function that the issue becomes a major problem. Just out of curiosity do you even know how kidney damage is measured? Once again back at ya if you are going to attack me....

5. There's nothing stupid comment about that. There have been posts here where folks actually smelled like ammonia due to their diet. Ammonia is a poison and will need to be cleansed by the above point. What if that person is already having lower renal function??

Please read before commenting further
http://www.disability.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Protein?OpenDocument

I would advice you to do the same. Get a book and read what happens in the body before attacking folks giving suggestions
 
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krishna said:
I am a personal trainor who is certified in Apex and NASM. None of their stuff or research shows that you need anywhere near 1.5 grams of protein per body weight to lose fat and build muscle. In fact, their studies show that people did better with a balanced ratio of carbs/fats/protein (45/30/25). I did hear from an apex instructor once that high amounts of protein are only necessary for extreme bodybuilding because they weigh more and have higher muscle content. Anybody have any knowledge or science on the matter?


i have a degree in exercise physiology, and one in exercise science. also certified trainer.... and through my own research and personal expierienc i find your ratio about right... but ive seen so many different ones i just find one that works best for me since everyones metabolism is different.

ksbst9mm
 
the avg person can absorb 35-40 grams of protein in one hour, but AAS increase the rate of protein synthesis, which is what causes our mussles 2 grow, think of it like a go kart, take off the governor
 
krishna said:
The point is that you may not need as much protein as you think to build and preserve lbm. Another point is that protein overload can cause health problems as gjohnson pointed out. Your body can only use so much protein, and if you're not getting the other macronutrients necessary for energy/protein synthesis, your body uses the protein as energy and gets used to destroying the protein instead of utilizing it properly. Basically, your body can only use so much protein properly to build muscle anyway, so why overload it if all it's going to do is cause health problems?


Krishna you are right about the health problems. Actually consuming too much protein, enough at one time when your body cannot break it all completely down causes ammonia poisoning. When protein is broke down it creates ammonia, i believe when it goes through the liver, and too much protein will cause too much ammonia therefore poisoning your body. Learned about that while working at GNC.

so you can have too much protein for sure.
 
Very few of the personal trainers in my gym look anything like body builders nor do their clients ,Nor do they eat like body builders .On the other hand Charles glass trains body builders and recommends 2 grams of protien per lbm lbs.Id rather take advice from a body builder training others body builders that has the body of a body builder .Also charles glass was a pro at one time and knows what it takes to be a pro.

Its like the old saying in the gym.If you want to big boy eat like a big boy.If you want to look like a tiny little girl eat what a tiny little girl eats.
 
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Well this is news to me. All I know is that competetive bodybuilders eat somewhere between 400 and 600g of protein per day and they have the muscle to prove it works.
 
From Trial and error i personally need to at least 1 - 1.5g's protein to grow or maintain muscle..... anything less and i just shrink
 
I think the point is BB's who use AAS NEED more protein then the average athlete, if they wanna build muscle..... I think the golden question is: Exactly how much protein do they need??? The answer is elusive to say the least..... This is why you have guys eating 600gms per day, which is WAY OVER KILL NO MATTER HOW MUCH GEAR YOURE USING..... Sticking with 200-250gms per day is more like it, and still safe on the body, which is pretty important too..... I think this is the point and topic Krishna was trying to talk about here.....

rizz
 
One of the trainors I work with just got his natural pro card and steps on stage at about 220. He has a master's in exercise and nutrition, and he agrees with the ratio's I originally posted. ksbst9mm,who posted a few threads before this, also has a master's and agrees with the ratios. Seems like the ones with higher educations agree with lower protein intake.
 
There is no one diet that will work for everyone. Obviously, people with higher b/f have different needs than those with single digit. It is difficult to argue against the fact that genetics makes up the majority of your body composition.
The prision weight room is a perfect example of this. Why is it that some people can go to prision and become jacked out of their mind, while others lift the same and don't. They have the same nutrition and training...... it's genetics my friend. "You can feed a bulldog like a greyhound and it will still have the build of a bulldog, and vise-versa."
 
krishna said:
I am a personal trainor who is certified in Apex and NASM. None of their stuff or research shows that you need anywhere near 1.5 grams of protein per body weight to lose fat and build muscle. In fact, their studies show that people did better with a balanced ratio of carbs/fats/protein (45/30/25). I did hear from an apex instructor once that high amounts of protein are only necessary for extreme bodybuilding because they weigh more and have higher muscle content. Anybody have any knowledge or science on the matter?

First, being "Apex and NASM" certified doesn't mean much to me. I used to train with a guy who had about 5 cirtifications and couldn't tell a chicken breast from a turkeys ass - he used to rant about stuff all the time.

Second, you do have some valid points here but they are variable at best. From my experience, size and muscle mass tends to be one of the major factors in protein intake. When I started working with clients, I had this mad idea about 2grams of protein/lb. of bodyweight or else; well seeing how proteins like whey convert to glucose at a 50-54% ratio - this was not a good idea. :chomp: I started using CKD/TKD and Bodyopus as a base, highfat/mod. protein and isocaloric (40/30/30 - dan duchaines layout) for most of my average clients. The bigger guys went on a 50%p/30%c/20%f or turn it to 30f/20c - depending on goals. I found that best results for cutting came from a very controlled bodyopus, naturally I had men lose 1-2lbs. of bodyfat per week and gain about 0.25lbs of muslce mass/week (+/- of course). Keep in mind, NO anabolics involved. Women did much better on an isocaloric with a 30%p/40%f/30%c doing a p/f switch with less training, for women tend to overtrain a lot more then men, that's why most women hit starvation faster in their diets and get no results. BMR for both men and women floated from wx12 , wx10 , wx15-18 - depending on size and refeed needs.

Conclusion, I would never call a high protein diet "BS", but I think every diet has it's place. As a trainer, your 'friend' should know about customization and tailoring regiments to specific clients.
 
Ya you're right X. I'm not using my certs as a reason to say I have all the knowledge. In fact, my training is what confused me. I don't pretend to know it all, that's why I asked for opinions. Thanks for chiming in with some knowledge:)
 
krishna said:
Do you have more credentials than the rest of us?

Not an expert, but as I mentioned before a double major, B.S Respiratory Care/B.A English. It's not a war. Don't get flustered. I just think you're getting confused over an issue with tons of variables and diseased persons dont have any relevance here.

.8-1 gram for sedentary persons per lb of LBM is a CLINICAL ratio so the body spares itself from catabolizing and causing deficiencies. So how can an AAS user/BB/Athelete not need at least 2 grams per lb of LBM? Include the effects of the drugs, the immense muscularity, the amount of force used per day of weight trainng, thier goals...etc. A woman sitting at a typewriter will not get kidney failure from from eating 2.0 gr of protein per/lb of LBM unless she does nothing but eat protein ONLY for a prolonged period. ANd the fact is, that rarely happens in real life.

Studies mean absolutely squat, and APEX teaches you what they want you to know so you stick to thier philosophy. Diet is as relative to a single person as training is. Every person has varying needs/bodytypes/activity levels/endocrine functions..etc. But protein is needed at a minimal ratio to prevent wasting. And if you train hard, take aas, and are looking to grow, that much more is needed to create protein anabolism. Look at some of the posts on this forum of about how someone is taking 1-2 grams of gear for like 10-12 weeks and only gain 10lbs. The first thing everyone asks is " How much protein did you take in per day?" Usually the answer is not enough.
 
I appreciate your input bro! I don't pretend to have all the answers. I like discussions like these to help me get more info and closer to the truth of the matter. When someone asks, it's usually because they are unclear or don't know, not because they do know; otherwise they wouldn't need to ask.
 
If I followed your .05 grams per pound of body weight in a 40-30-30 ratio
at 5'8 195lbs 15%bf my weight is 165 lbm .

40 % .05 grams of protien per pound lbm is 82.5 =@ 330 calories.
30% 75 carbs = @300 calories
30% fat 34 grams of fat = @300 calories

So your apex "higher education" Suggest I should take in less than 1000 calories .To gain muscle and burn fat.
Are you trying to send me to a fucking death camp?Lets be serious here.
Apex is telling people to stay in shape on this diet?They are fucking idiots then.You should take your certificate shred it and mail it back to them.
As far as your buddy on stage agrees with your diet i doubt he built his body off 1500 calories a day lets be real and do the math.
 
toxicsambo said:
Studies mean absolutely squat, and APEX teaches you what they want you to know so you stick to thier philosophy. Diet is as relative to a single person as training is.



See, now this is just not true bro..... Studies are the only controlled way we can learn about what works for MOST humans..... Yeah, there are gonna be varying results, and those variables might not be seen in the studies' results, but you can't dismiss studies all together...... My body might not react EXACTLY like yours, but we're both still Humans, and results will be SIMILAR..... I'm a Respiratory guy too btw.... It's a decent field to get into.....

rizz
 
If you do a search on the women's board a few years back under the member name MS, there will be a lot of awesome info regarding this topic in many debates. There was 1 or 2 really good heated debates that were a couple of pages long. If I have time i'll see if I can pull them up and post a link to them.

BMJ
 
toxicsambo said:
Not an expert, but as I mentioned before a double major, B.S Respiratory Care/B.A English. It's not a war. Don't get flustered. I just think you're getting confused over an issue with tons of variables and diseased persons dont have any relevance here.

.8-1 gram for sedentary persons per lb of LBM is a CLINICAL ratio so the body spares itself from catabolizing and causing deficiencies. So how can an AAS user/BB/Athelete not need at least 2 grams per lb of LBM? Include the effects of the drugs, the immense muscularity, the amount of force used per day of weight trainng, thier goals...etc. A woman sitting at a typewriter will not get kidney failure from from eating 2.0 gr of protein per/lb of LBM unless she does nothing but eat protein ONLY for a prolonged period. ANd the fact is, that rarely happens in real life.

Studies mean absolutely squat, and APEX teaches you what they want you to know so you stick to thier philosophy. Diet is as relative to a single person as training is. Every person has varying needs/bodytypes/activity levels/endocrine functions..etc. But protein is needed at a minimal ratio to prevent wasting. And if you train hard, take aas, and are looking to grow, that much more is needed to create protein anabolism. Look at some of the posts on this forum of about how someone is taking 1-2 grams of gear for like 10-12 weeks and only gain 10lbs. The first thing everyone asks is " How much protein did you take in per day?" Usually the answer is not enough.

I think it is you who is getting confused. In terms of liver and kidneys, what is a "diseased" person??? Since you attacked me with that point, I would like you to come up with the answer. People have been diagnosed with both and may report no trouble passing urine or getting liver enzyme values back to normal. Even if one has impaired liver function, isn’t that why we take NAC, glutathione, milk thistle? Why not drink more water to help renal function???

Anyway, liver disease and kidney (renal) disease basically mean "we don't know". You have a reduced ability to pass urine through your kidneys, but the specific cause is unknown... That label is renal disease.... Your liver enzyme ALT is 8 times normal??? What is the first thing your doctor asks you? What hard liquor do you drink, Right? Let's overlook that statin drug he prescribed you... You look on your medical records and it says "liver disease” Why?? Because you have elevated enzymes and they really don't know why. It does not mean you are diseased!!! Where in the word did you get that idea??? He did not diagnose you with Hepatitis C...

As far as studies meaning squat, I think Mr. X said something similar, and I will disagree again. This is the reason I posted the medical tests. The BUN test can give an indication as to the liver and kidney function of the user, not a statistical average of a group of people. Put that in combination with how that user consumes food and we can start to get a better idea. Take that same lifestyle information and put a ph strip on that person’s saliva or urine... This will reveal more information whether helpful or not. Add a blood test and check white cell count and blood protein concentrations... The studies were just general information...

As far as anabolism during training, I listed some supps that will help if not completely stop this. Some aminos (powder or liquid) with your protein drink mixed with some glutamine peptides. Take some Methoxy isoflavone to block the hormone cortisol. Swallow some HMB before training. Swallow some high quality bovine colostrums first thing on an empty stomach such as New Life Colostrum. Then followed by some glucose/dextrose so that proteins will be spared and sugars will be utilized to reduce catabolism and body functions. Proteins absorb in the presence of carbs... There's more to it then just swallowing more protein


Anyway, enough
 
Prizz said:
See, now this is just not true bro..... Studies are the only controlled way we can learn about what works for MOST humans..... Yeah, there are gonna be varying results, and those variables might not be seen in the studies' results, but you can't dismiss studies all together...... My body might not react EXACTLY like yours, but we're both still Humans, and results will be SIMILAR..... I'm a Respiratory guy too btw.... It's a decent field to get into.....

rizz

they are not totally useless!!!
 
I think that it depends on the person.....I have heard if you stay at 1g per lbs of protein you will maintain your avg muscle weight...if you increase to to 1.5 you will build muscle....i think protein if more for muscle then fat loss.....now if you want to loose fat and increase muscle size and strength, i have heard and done this my self that eating unsaturated fats should be your balenched fats(like you were talking about)...no saturated fats (or few)....for carbs i have heard that the high carbs should be in the morning...to energize your day....and about 30 grams of dietary fibers(flax, omega 3,6,9 ect...)......i have done this for about 7 months and have droped at least 10 % body fat and increased muscle size big time(went from 225lbs to 163lbs)......i have also created a program like that for my fat friend 3 week ago and he has lost 20 lbs of fat.......but i still think it depends on the person.
 
I am by no means an expert on the matter: I am simply attempting to add depth to this interesting thread. From http://www.apexfitness.com/html/nutrition/articles/protein_reqs/

Rationale for Protein Supplementation

Because of protein's structure and function, this may be the easiest supplement to rationalize. But in a healthy population, protein supplementation is difficult to defend, at least in its general use among athletes. The concept that "more is better" is the conventional thinking of many users of protein supplements, especially in the bodybuilding community. Athletes tend to base their diet decisions on nutritional advice from their peers, nonscientific mentors, heroes, or idols-rather than peer-reviewed, scientific literature.

No evidence has shown a constant, linear increase in muscle mass or performance, related to protein intake. Thus, there is a physiological threshold for incorporating dietary protein into fat-free mass (FFM), or for using protein as an immediate energy substrate.

Fat-free mass (FFM) includes all portions of body tissues that do not contain fat: skeletal bones and muscles, skin, organs, and body water, as well as hair, blood, and lymph. In clinical studies, an increase in FFM usually equals an increase in skeletal muscle. Energy is the capacity to do work. The energy in food is chemical energy, which can be converted to mechanical, electrical, or heat energy.

Exercise intensity and mode, goals, type of protein and total energy intake-singularly or in any combination-influence the individual requirements for optimal protein intake. There are several reasons for ingesting supplemental protein.

To enhance recovery after exercise. One defensible reason to ingest supplemental protein is to get amino acids quickly into the blood following exercise. Research using protein and carbohydrate supplements before and after weight training has shown an enhancement of anabolic hormones compared to a non-supplemented state. Theoretically, this would enhance recovery, allowing the body to spend more time on building muscle rather than repair.

In weight reduction programs. Protein supplements replace whole food proteins to eliminate unwanted calories in order to maintain equal or positive nitrogen balance during body fat reduction as cosmetic athletes must do to compete.

Convenience. Protein supplements are used in situations when whole food is not available or not an option as with early morning workouts.

Cost. Marketers often purport lower cost per gram of nitrogen when compared to foods.

Effect of exercise on protein needs. As early as 1981, scientists Lemon and Nagle studied the effect of exercise on protein requirements. Following this review, scientists began to recommend protein intakes for athletes above the RDA. While the effect of exercise on protein metabolism was found to vary by exercise type, protein can supply from 4% to 10% of exercise energy needs. Exercise increases the oxidation of amino acids and the rate of protein turnover in lean body mass during recovery.

Furthermore, cardiorespiratory exercise alone contributes to an increase in protein requirements, 594-605 as does resistance training. Since endurance and strength training modes of exercise elicit different morphological adaptations-protein needs, when participating in both activities, may be greater than the highest recommendation for strength training. 609,610

Metabolism refers to the utilization of nutrients in the body-the process, by which substances come into the body and the rate that they are utilized. Lean body mass (LBM) includes all skeletal bones and muscles, skin, organs, and body water, as well as hair, blood, and lymph.

Effect of negative energy balance on protein requirements. For athletes and others pursuing body fat reduction, body fat loss goals require that a caloric deficit be maintained until the goal is reached. These individuals seek to modify their body composition. During a negative energy balance, amino acids are used to assist in energy production.

Body composition is the percentage of the body composed of fat vs. lean body mass. Body composition consists of specific categories, such as the percentage of bone mineral, body water, and hair.

In athletes, anaerobic or aerobic exercise depletes glycogen, causing an increase in gluconeogenesis. Glycogen is the principal storage form of carbohydrate energy (glucose), which is reserved in muscles and in the liver. Gluconeogenesis is the formation of glucose from fatty acids and proteins rather than from carbohydrates.

The increase in gluconeogenesis is supported by the release of branched chain and other amino acids from structural proteins in order to maintain glucose homeostasis during exercise. The hypocaloric diet establishes less than optimal glycogen stores-and when combined with increased glycogen demand during exercise-protein's energy utilization is increased. The loss of lean body mass in sedentary persons during a negative energy balance can be reduced by increasing the amount of protein in the diet, leading to a more rapid return to nitrogen balance.

Collectively, these studies show an increase in protein utilization during a hypocaloric diet, with effects that can be exacerbated by exercise.

Protein and the bodybuilder. Bodybuilders during energy balance (off-season) should follow the same protein recommendations as strength athletes. However, during negative energy balance enroute to competition-level body fat, protein requirements may dramatically increase.

To reach competitive levels of body fat, calorie intake is continually lowered while exercise-including cardiorespiratory, weight training and posing-is increased. (Competitive levels of body fat are generally unhealthy and impossible to maintain for prolonged periods.)

Each component of this regime may have additive effects on protein requirements. The body's survival mechanisms, related to increases in energy expenditure and decreases in food supply, are probably highly active during this period, forcing a continued reduction in food intake to achieve the goal. However, because of protein's anabolic requirements, protein cannot be lowered. In fact, protein intake may have to be increased in the final few weeks before competition.

During this period, the body must have an option in the use of available food for energy or muscle support. The body does not have a choice with dietary carbohydrates or fats, making them the only dispensable calories. Therefore, protein intake could be dramatically increased to theoretically lessen the obligatory loss of lean tissue during these drastic measures. It is quite common to see these athletes consuming the majority of their calories from protein in the final weeks before competition. However, during the off season, when athletes returned to normal food intake (protein at anabolic requirements and energy needs met primarily with carbohydrate and fats) and energy balance-a better anabolic environment would exist compared to maintaining this high protein intake all year.

Effect of protein on satiety. Protein's role in satiety is an important consideration. As with all macronutrients, protein activates specific satiety mechanisms and may be more satiating than fats and carbohydrates. Protein-induced suppression of food intake in animals and humans is greater than its energy content alone. This suggests that protein has a direct effect on satiety. In studies of rats and humans, a pre-load of protein suppressed their food intake for several hours, and to a greater extent, a similar energy load of fat and carbohydrate.

Athletes seeking fat loss may benefit from the satiating properties of protein. Individual digestive physiology may help determine comfort with different percentages of the macronutrients. Macronutrients are nutrients that are ingested in large quantities on a regular basis. They include proteins, carbohydrates, fats, and water. All the macronutrients are necessary to normal functions.

Macronutrient intake may include protein intake above recommendations (but within healthful guidelines) in order to feel satiated and energized daily. This would assist athletes in program adherence. In summary, protein's effects on well being and satiety may assist athletes in complying with the energy intake needed for their goals.

Whey Protein Products

Research on Specialized Protein Formulas

In recent years, marketers' focus on protein products has been to build "the perfect protein". Their objective has been an enhancement of protein synthesis, compared to food protein or standard protein supplements.

Whey protein hydrolysates are the in-vogue protein product. Special processing of whey protein-which has the highest biological value of any protein-yields small peptides that are absorbed faster into the blood stream than free-form amino acids. 644 In addition, these special blends have been found to provide greater nitrogen retention and protein synthesis in starved animals, 645,646 burn patients, 647 and during enteral feeding of hospitalized patients, 648 when compared to other proteins. The amino acid profile of whey protein (very high in branched-chain amino acids)-combined with a manufacturing process that yields the ideal peptide lengths for rapid absorption-probably gives this special blend its benefits to injured, diseased, or starved recipients. The relevance of this to well-fed, healthy athletes is probably non-existent. However, for bodybuilders, wrestlers, or other weight-conscious athletes preparing for competition (these athletes are generally underfed and overtrained at this point), these formulas offer a viable way to meet requirements with fewer calories.

Summary

Exercise mode and intensity, current athletic condition, energy intake, goals, and type of protein can affect protein requirements additively. The timing of available amino acids (pre- and post-training), reduction of calories (while sparing nitrogen losses), convenience, and possibly cost-they are all defensible conditions for protein supplements to be a benefit. On the other hand, if athletes meet their requirements (as shown on Table 1) with food, and they maintain their desired body fat levels-no substantial evidence exists that (1) using protein supplements to replace food or (2) increasing protein intake above requirements-will enhance performance or adult skeletal muscle hypertrophy.

Recommendations of Specific Protein Dosages

Recommendations are based on intake extrapolated from studies that suggest efficacy and safety.

* As assessed from the variety of protein recommendations from the top experts, there are no set guidelines, on which to make concrete recommendations for all athletes.

* In addition, if energy intake (fats and carbohydrates) is reduced, and more protein is used for energy as with fitness athletes (such as bodybuilders and fitness competitors)-the need for this dual-purpose macronutrient increases. Requirements for weight and body-fat conscious athletes who maintain a negative energy balance for extended periods are unknown. Acute bouts with very high protein intakes seem to be nontoxic to these athletes. Protein is usually the majority of the macronutrient intake for this population during this period, but athletes should return to recommended dosages when energy intake can increase following competition.

In considering all research, not including the aforementioned condition of body fat-conscious athletes, Table 14 lists the appropriate recommendations for most athletes and exercisers. The recommendations are based on the majority of energy requirements being met by dietary carbohydrates and fats.

I DELETED THE TABLE DUE TO FORMATING ERRORS so please FEEL FREE TO CHECK THE SITE


The active recreational athletes category also includes other competitive athletes, not attempting body composition changes. The adaptation period is defined as significant physiological changes occurring due to participation in a new regime, progressive intensity, or high-intensity training. The adaptation period presumes that factors affecting protein requirements may be additive. Athletes participating in aerobic and anaerobic (mainly strength training) activities may need intakes at the upper end of the ranges.
 
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