HGH question....

[ironmaster]

Just a couple personal observations. ALA is a nice anti-oxident. Anything beyond that has not been proven to my satisfaction. As far as I'm concerned, all these ala threads are "infomercials".
The insulin + Avandia is a good idea which I will try.
Glucophage didn't do the trick for me in lieu of insulin.
I don't get fat with insulin, unless I'm careless with my diet. Insulin causes me to get bigger evenly all over, including lagging body parts........that's three 12 week cycles a year, never more than 20iu a day.
How this would relate to an athlete.......not sure, but bigger is better I would think, if it was lean muscle mass.

 

[monkeyballs]

Avandia...
I will have to read up....

You mention the chance of fat gain while using insulin. I read about this as well, and In my mind it negates one of the principle reasons for using GH. While GH and slin might be a potent combo for adding, what advantage does it have over a simple AAS.

Would Avandia have the same possibilty to add fat as slin?

I'm guessing it's probably less likely, but still possible.

IM, your on GH and slin and an AS. Your BF% is obviously very low. Have you ever used Avandia?

 

[ironmaster]

No, MB, but nandi has convinced me to try it WITH insulin.
I still think the fat risk is overstated. Humalog is very fast, so controlling fat intake is easy. I have used 12 hour humulin with humalog in the winter to put on size, and it does smooth me out a little, but never a problem with just humalog.
I get up near 250 at 5'11 in the winter, and still stay at or under 10%.
Have either of you fellas tried EPO?

 

[monkeyballs]

I will have to look at the possibility of adding a small dose of avandia to my upcomming cycle. Provided the mass gain isn't too dramatic, it could be a nice way of controlling insulin sensitivity while on my GH. We'll discuss this further via E-mail if you've got the time.

As for EPO. The effects of EPO are usually so obvious to any coach, that use is hard to get away with unless your coach is east german. Endurance increases dramatically within a few days. Blood work (which I have a question about in another post) usually shows a marked increase in hematocrit%.An increase that is usually well above the possible increase from trainining alone. A typical hematocrit% for a trained athlete in anywhere between 44-50. EPO can get you as high a 58. Needless to say, your blood carries much more oxygen and is therefore a shitload more efficent. Provided that you stay hydrated at all times, you should even be able to stay alive while on EPO. Without adequate hydration, the % can go as high as 60-65, and chances are you won't be around very long with blood that's thicker than pudding.

Anyway...long story short, no, I've never used it, and I probably will never be able. If only I were a pro-cyclist, Or German.

 

[nandi12]

I agree with ironmaster that Humalog really cuts down on the risk of extra fat. When insulin levels are high, lipoprotein lipase, the enzyme that hydrolyzes triglycerides so they can enter fat cells is activated. Similarly, hormone sensitive lipase, which mobilizes triglycerides from adipocytes so they can be used as fuel is turned off. You want to limit these things to the time right after a meal, so the rest of the time you are burning fat for fuel. This is the big plus of Humalog over Humulin.

The thiazolidinediones have been shown to inhibit lipoprotein lipase activity in adipocytes (1), nevertheless they don't inhibit adipogenesis. This is interesting and the authors speculate that it may be a result of increased fat synthesis from glucose in the adipocytes. In humans most fat enters fat cells either directly from fat in the diet, or via fat made in the liver from carbs or amino acids. Very little is made directly in the cells. In this study the increased glucose uptake into the fat cells may have stimulated de novo fat synthesis. Interesting. I don't know how the net change in fat would be affected.

AS stimulate protein synthesis, but do not seem to have an effect on protein breakdown. Insulin on the other hand can both promote protein synthesis and inhibit protein breakdown. This, and its ability to promote amino acid transport into tissue are the advantages of insulin over AS as I see it. Obviously both used together would be best.

There are a lot of conflicting studies on the role of GH in influencing net protein levels. Some research says it promotes protein accretion, while other studies say it reduces proteolysis with no effect on synthesis. All this needs to be considered in the light of the fact that no research shows an increase in skeletal muscle mass in humans. (Recall LBM may not equate with skeletal mass.)


(1) J Biol Chem 1998 Oct 2;273(40):26117-22

Thiazolidinediones inhibit lipoprotein lipase activity in adipocytes.

Ranganathan S, Kern PA.

 

[SUST-MAN]

THIS THREAD IS AMAZING!

THIS SHOULD GO IN BEST OF ELITE!!!!!!

KARMA ALL AROUND!

 

[The Man Child]

You're welcome LOL, I wish I knew more about HGH so I could throw in my 2 pennies...good job though fellas!

 

[nandi12]

I've never used EPO either, Ironmaster. Monkeyballs, I recall from some of our previous exchanges that you are a competitive athlete. That's why I was stressing the benefits of insulin and/or an insulin sensitizer for atheltic performance (increased glycogen storage). Striclty from a cutting perspective insulin would probably not be the drug of choice and GH would be better.

I tried metformin as well recently and was not impressed. I kept the dosage very low because of the reports of serious lactic acidosis in some people. I did not want to become comatose from getting a lactic acid burn while working out!

I am trying ALA right now with Humalog to see if it makes a difference. I did not notice any effect of ALA when I tried it on its own. I know a lot of people do. I guess I already have pretty good insulin sensitivity so I did not notice a difference.

Another reason to use an insulin sensitizer when using insulin is the extensive research showing that chronic exposure to insulin downregulates the insulin receptor. I don't know if this effect extends to the periodic supraphysiologic insulin levels one experiences when using slin, but I figure using an insulin sensitizer can't hurt.


I have read a lot of anecdotal comments about weight change during Avandia (or Actos, another drug in the same class) use on diabetes websites. Some people gain a little weight, others lose weight. I'm sure diet is central to whatever happens. Here are a couple of links to abstracts that talk a little about the changes in adipocyte morphology caused by these drugs.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11412280&dopt=Abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9377645&dopt=Abstract

I'm going to go to the med school library to read the second one in particular. It sounds like there are both adipogenic and antiadipogenic effects of the drug. Those effects 1 through 4 they outline are all changes promoting lipolysis, but the other effects sound like those of fat accumulation. Maybe the paper will say what the net result was.

 

[SUST-MAN]

How are you using the ALA during your insulin cycle?

Are you taking it with meals? or before workout?

Also...what brand are you using? Does it have to be r-ALA?

Thanks!

 

[nandi12]

Sust-man, I'm trying 200mg or R-ALA from AF with my post workout humalog and protein/carb shake. I think the prevailing opinion is that R-ALA is superior than regular. As I said, I noticed no difference before when I tried it without slin. I share ironmaster's view that it might be overrated except for those people who are insulin resistant. I'll keep you posted. I just started on it a few days ago.

That said, bodybuilders take a lot of things that can induce insulin resistance/glucose intolerance: high amino acid intake; GH; caffeine; slin (possibly, as I mentioned above due to insulin receptor downregulation); anabolic steroids; T3 (again possibly; hyperthyroid people are commonly insulin resistant and it goes away when they are treated. The exact mechanism is unknown)