Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below
napsgear
genezapharmateuticals
domestic-supply US-PHARMACIES
UGL OZ Raptor Labs UGFREAK
napsgeargenezapharmateuticals domestic-supplyUS-PHARMACIES UGL OZUGFREAKRaptor Labs

HCG/Nolvadex Question 4 Bill Llywellyn

The_Eviscerator

The_Eviscerator

New member
Bill, I always see that you suggest HCG and Nolvadex at the end of a cycle. This time around I used Clomid and Nolvadex and it seemed to help me rebound and stay lean.

My Question IS: What would be the suggested dosing of HCG and Nolvadex after a 10 week cycle?
 
The_Eviscerator said:
Bill, I always see that you suggest HCG and Nolvadex at the end of a cycle. This time around I used Clomid and Nolvadex and it seemed to help me rebound and stay lean.

My Question IS: What would be the suggested dosing of HCG and Nolvadex after a 10 week cycle?
Click to expand...

I would limit the use of HCG to three weeks, usually around 5,000-7,500 iu or so total per week (some guys go to 10,000iu). The first week, week and a half would be during the time steroid levels are still weaning. This is to try an help rebuild a little testicular mass while there is still some exogenous androgen in the body. Nolvadex, 20mg per day, for the whole three weeks, and then at least 3 weeks after.

- Bill Llewellyn
 
Thanks for the response... Should you take 1000 iu of HCG in spaced doses through the week? OR.... Take 5000 or 10000 all at once. I would think it would make more sens to spread them out, but I am not sure.
 
w_llewellyn said:


Now if we can just get you to realize Nolvadex is better than Clomid you'll be in good shape Ulter :)

- Bill Llewellyn
Click to expand...


You are right. This is the case. In Europe some doctors will perscribe Nolvadex to men with low test and in most cases it works to bring it in the normal range, goes to show you something.

I have used Nolvadex and HCG at the end of a cycle and it works wonders. Nolvadex is a really good drug with a lot of benefits but seems to have falled out of fashion lately. I personally use it quite often, even when i do not cycle i put myself on it for 3 months sometimes at a low dosage for it's cardiac benefits and it's sbility to soften arteries and such. Awsome drug in my opinion.



Sincerely :nopity:
 
The_Eviscerator said:
Thanks for the response... Should you take 1000 iu of HCG in spaced doses through the week? OR.... Take 5000 or 10000 all at once. I would think it would make more sens to spread them out, but I am not sure.
Click to expand...

Bump for a response
 
You are right. This is the case. In Europe some doctors will perscribe Nolvadex to men with low test and in most cases it works to bring it in the normal range, goes to show you something.
Click to expand...

The doctors in this country prescribe arimidex and clomid. In Europe they use Nolvadex because that's what they have always used. Here they are a little more advanced in this field.

I have used Nolvadex and HCG at the end of a cycle and it works wonders. Nolvadex is a really good drug with a lot of benefits but seems to have falled out of fashion lately
Click to expand...

Nolvadex fell out of fashion because the company that makes it has a more effective product. It's call arimidex, and using 30 year old drugs in place of newer drugs will always be "out of fashion".
 
Last edited:
ulter said:

Nolvadex fell out of fashion because the company that makes it has a more effective product. It's call arimidex, and using 30 year old drugs in place of newer drugs will always be "out of fashion".
Click to expand...

As was well pointed out by gwl9dta4, there are many benifits to Nolvadex not found in an aromatase inhibitor. Arimidex is excellent if estrogen minimization is your only goal, but I for one would use Nolvadex over it (or at least with it) in most cases.

- Bill Llewellyn
 
ulter said:
I'm sorry I thought we were talking about recovery here not cardiac and artery treatment.

I only have one question for you Bill and then I will get off this. How many times have you personally used nolva/hcg when coming off a cycle?
Click to expand...

In the approximite 10 years I spent on and off juice, many. I'm not going to sit back and count them for you though.

- Bill Llewellyn
 
ulter said:
I don't want you to stroll down memory lane. I am just curious how often you used this and if you have tried using clomid and arimidex to compare. In other words, have you personally done an A/B comparison?
Click to expand...

I have tried Clomid alone a few times, years ago, but typically used Nolvadex and HCG. I have always found it to work very well for me. As for Arimidex, no, I have not tried to use this in a post-cycle recovery program. Years ago I had a scare with EXTREMELY messed up cholesterol (all LDL, almost no HDL), and since have stayed away from aromatase inhibitors altogether. Consider this though:

Both Clomid, which mind you I have always contended works as a T stimulating drug just like Nolvadex (just technically not as good), and Arimidex counter HPTA suppression by blocking the negative feedback caused by estrogens. They support LH release obviously.

Now post cycle it has clearly been shown that LH levels rebound quickly, while T levels are much slower to return to normal. Why? The reason is that the testes, after a period of inactivity, have lost mass and are not able to respond as well to LH in terms of T output. If your recovery program only focuses on LH support it is missing the more important problem, testicular mass. HCG, as you know, can provide an additional bolus dose of LH. It can essentially help shock them back into shape, whereas it will take many weeks relying on heightened endogenous LH alone.

My .02, an effective post cycle recovery program requires both HCG and an anti-estrogen.

- Bill Llewellyn
 
w_llewellyn said:


I have tried Clomid alone a few times, years ago, but typically used Nolvadex and HCG. I have always found it to work very well for me. As for Arimidex, no, I have not tried to use this in a post-cycle recovery program. Years ago I had a scare with EXTREMELY messed up cholesterol (all LDL, almost no HDL), and since have stayed away from aromatase inhibitors altogether. Consider this though:


This is something I have never heard about, the bad effects of armidex on cholesterol. Could you elaborate on this more. I too as of late have bad cholesterol and was blaming it on the winny. I have never had problems in the past but I also have never used armidex as I have never needed it. With the popularity of armidex of late I have had it in the last 4 cycles and now have a cholesterol problem. I get frequent blood work. Any suggestions on controlling the cholesterol while on. I just read the winstrol thread where it is focusing on cholesterol and has answered some of my questions. The fact is I am now 29 and I am worried about my cholesterol levels good+34 bad 15. What would be a good practice to keep cholesterol in line, this is a subject that hardly ever gets touched on.


Thanks


DROID
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
droid said:

This is something I have never heard about, the bad effects of armidex on cholesterol. Could you elaborate on this more. I too as of late have bad cholesterol and was blaming it on the winny. DROID
Click to expand...

The winny is likely a strong contributor. C17aa's in general are very bad for cholesterol. Arimidex is an additional problem because it blocks estrogen conversion (not winny of course), a hormone which plays an important role in the balance of cholesterol. Studies for example have shown that testosterone plus an aromatase inhibitor (Teslac) is much worse than T alone. Nolvadex is an ideal drug for the steroid user because it is intrinsically estrogenic in the liver, and often strongly increases HDL levels, yet is anti-estrogenic in other important areas of the body. I agree with you, this subject is sorely overlooked by most bodybuilders.

When really concerned: I'd stick with aromatizable injectables like T, EQ and even Nandrolone, and always use Nolvadex. I have added it to low dosed T/Deca cycles in the past, even though it was not necessary for the prevention of gyno, just to keep HDL levels up.

- Bill Llewellyn
 
Hey guys- good thread with some really useful information.
What if a person can't get their hands on HCG but has Nolva and Clomid. Nolvadex is being used at 20 mg/day while on the cycle and Clomid therapy is to start after. Would it make sense to stay on Nolva post-cycle while also on Clomid?
Again, thanks and keep up the good work.

BK
 
Broiler said:
Hey guys- good thread with some really useful information.
What if a person can't get their hands on HCG but has Nolva and Clomid. Nolvadex is being used at 20 mg/day while on the cycle and Clomid therapy is to start after. Would it make sense to stay on Nolva post-cycle while also on Clomid?
Click to expand...

This is exactly what I did on my last post cycle. It seemed to work pretty well.
 
yeah, some really interesting stuff being said here !! Mr. llewellyn, how about writing an informative thread on this overlooked cholesterol-issue. I think there is great interest here in such a thread, so pls enlighten us. :) :) :)
 
"The doctors in this country prescribe arimidex and clomid. In Europe they use Nolvadex because that's what they have always used. Here they are a little more advanced in this field"


***And so you would like to think. But nothing would be farthest from the truth. In Europe the science if hormonal supplementation was and still is light years ahead of the US. It is only very recently that the US has started to play catch up with this field. You can thank the European Pharmaceutincal firms for just about 90% of all anabolic compounds used today.***



"Nolvadex fell out of fashion because the company that makes it has a more effective product. It's call arimidex, and using 30 year old drugs in place of newer drugs will always be "out of fashion"."

***Yet the more you will learn about this topic you will come to realize that Nolvadex may fall back into fashion with many BB's. Clomid is nothing special and will delay your total HPTA recovery. You will rebound the quickest on Nolvadex and HCG. As far as using 30year old drugs really means nothing. We still have to find a better drug then test, and it was synthesized in the 1940's.***
 
Funny...both Bill Roberts and Huck do not believe it is best to use H C G post cycle, but during the cycle, or near the end.
Also, Bill Roberts says that Clomid is way better than Nolva post cycle. :(
 
My .02 is that as with roids everyone respond differently to drugs terapy, clomid is a good ancillary drug that do his job but probably also HCG and Nolvadex are a good combo, so some one respond better to Clomid and some one find very good HCG and Nolva.
The only thing to do is try and find what works best 4 u.
Bye
Body
 
I don't know anyone who agrees with Bill on this and that's ok let him have his opinion. You guys should try both and see what works better for you. Just because Bill wrote a book doesn't mean he knows the best way to do these things. It only means he wrote something a publisher thought would sell. I don't want to trivialize what he did but that's the truth.
 
w_llewellyn said:


When really concerned: I'd stick with aromatizable injectables like T, EQ and even Nandrolone, and always use Nolvadex. I have
- Bill Llewellyn
Click to expand...

Nandrolone aromatizes?!?!?
 
Quote from Bill Roberts on the subject

.... but first I would like to say that Bill L has made a good point about Nolva use and HDL. Bill Roberts uses clomid throughout the cycle as it has a positive affect on HDL he also says that Nolva would likely have the same affect.

Bill Robert on Nolva and Clomid......

" Both in practical body building and medically, Clomid has proven superior to Nolvadex at increasing LH and Testosterone, though Nolvadex does also work somewhat fot that." Bill Roberts
t-mag.com

Stay tuned for another quote from Guru Roberts about H C G use.

:)
 
ulter said:
I don't know anyone who agrees with Bill on this and that's ok let him have his opinion. You guys should try both and see what works better for you. Just because Bill wrote a book doesn't mean he knows the best way to do these things. It only means he wrote something a publisher thought would sell. I don't want to trivialize what he did but that's the truth.
Click to expand...

Ulter, I do think I made a very cogent argument for the use of HCG + anti-estrogen post cycle. I'm wondering why you are not addressing my response above concerning the rapid return of LH, and delayed T rebound. Can you explain how anti-estrogens/anti-aromatases alone, as you recommend, deal with this issue?

- Bill Llewellyn
 
Bill I mean no disrespect in bringing up Bill Roberts and his thoughts on the subject. It's just that I see two different sides of the same coin and I for one am a bit confused.

I can see using H C G a week post cycle of longer acting esters, or at the start of clomid, in order to kick start the testes, but I cannot see the logic in using it every for four weeks post cycle, every four days simply because later on in the recovery this would surely have an inhibiting affect on LH. Once the testes are up and running would not additional H C G be like a small shot of test and enough to inhibit LH?
 
Realgains said:
Bill I mean no disrespect in bringing up Bill Roberts and his thoughts on the subject. It's just that I see two different sides of the same coin and I for one am a bit confused.

I can see using H C G a week post cycle of longer acting esters, or at the start of clomid, in order to kick start the testes, but I cannot see the logic in using it every for four weeks post cycle, every four days simply because later on in the recovery this would surely have an inhibiting affect on LH. Once the testes are up and running would not additional H C G be like a small shot of test and enough to inhibit LH?
Click to expand...

I always recommend limiting HCG to three weeks. It is good to get things started, but counterproductive if overused. This is why I am not a big supporter of using it throughout your cycles. I would be worried about desensitizing the testes to LH.

I don't take offense to your posting Bill Roberts' opinions RealGains. It is good to hear all sides, and I welcome it. That is what the boards are all about, open discussions and the sharing of opinions. On a side note I have a lot of respect for BR as a colleague, and wouldn't say anything bad about him personally. He has always been very nice guy to speak with in my experience. I do however disagree with him on some points, this being one of them. Ultimately we must admit that the Nolvadex vs. Clomid issue is an academic one anyway, as they do both accomplish the same thing.

- Bill Llewellyn
 
Thanx Bill L

More about H C G from Bill Roberts at t-mag.com

The question was asked Bill Roberts about the LH inhibiting affect of HCG throughout the cycle and here is what he said.

"At 500iu/day there's no desensitization issue"

The question was asked if it would not be a good idea to use H C G starting on day one with clomid and then every 4 days or so for a few weeks in order to kick start the testes. The following was Bill Roberts reply....

"It's a better policy I think to avoid the problem of testicular shrinkage in the first place, by using (H C G ) DURING the cycle. eg 500 iu/day or if you are cheap, every other day. Post cycle is not optimum because the increased testosterone production from the H C G in turn has an inhibitory effect on LH production. It's like trying to recover while at the same time injecting low dose testosterone like 100mg/week. 500iu's per day is still an appropriate dose but expect it to slow your recovery of LH production somewhat, though not badly.
If cost and availablility are not an issue I would always use it. If they are, then saving for the last few weeks of the cycle itself is the way to save money, as well as throughout the cycle but at lesser dose of 500iu every other day.
Testicular size will return with clomid use post cycle so it's not necessary to use H C G in an 8 week cycle, simply preferred. And it's not just cosmetic: Testosterone production will be better in the weeks after the cycle if testicle size was maintained throughout, or brought back to normal before the off weeks begin"
 
Bill, I understand what you are saying about time on H C G and inhibition of LH but that is not what I was getting at....please bare with me bro...

In your book you give an example ohf H C G use post cycle to "shock" the testes into action, since they can be at least a little insensitive to LH after a cycle. You said to start H C G at the same time as clomid and at 3000iu on day one, followed by 3000 on day6, 1500 on day 11, and 1500 on day 16. Now surely by day 11 the testes have started to rebound due to LH release and the H C G shot, and the shots of H C G from then on would only serve to kick test production up and therfore inhibit LH and prolong the recovery. If one shot of H C G didn't do the trick then perhaps another one five days latter may be called for, but to continue with the shots as mentioned above doesn't make sence Bill...at least it doesn't to my limited intellect.

Now if one wishes to optimize the testes response to LH post cycle wouldn't it be better to use the H C G prior to clomid but before the end of the last steroid injection ....say in the last few weeks before the cycle ends? Won't the testes maintain their size from this approach and then respond quickly to LH in the taper starting with clomid.
 
Realgains said:
Now surely by day 11 the testes have started to rebound due to LH release and the H C G shot, and the shots of H C G from then on would only serve to kick test production up and therfore inhibit LH and prolong the recovery. If one shot of H C G didn't do the trick then perhaps another one five days latter may be called for, but to continue with the shots as mentioned above doesn't make sence Bill...at least it doesn't to my limited intellect.
Click to expand...

You are assuming quite a lot here Realgains. I seriously doubt one or two shots of HCG is all that is needed for full recovery. Remember, HCG only mimics LH, it is not a magic bullet. Studies have shown that with normal post-cycle recovery, it takes many weeks (sometimes months) of elevated LH levels before the testes catch up. The HCG will clearly help, but probably best if taken over a period of a few weeks.

Now if one wishes to optimize the testes response to LH post cycle wouldn't it be better to use the H C G prior to clomid but before the end of the last steroid injection ....say in the last few weeks before the cycle ends? Won't the testes maintain their size from this approach and then respond quickly to LH in the taper starting with clomid.
Click to expand...

There is no detriment to taking Clomid or Nolvadex with HCG, and may be good just in case T levels peak a little too high and you have problems with estrogen (remember HCG upregulates testicular aromatase). But yes, start using it while you still have steroid in you body. If your last injection was Deca or Sustanon though, remember to take into account clearance time.

- Bill Llewellyn
 
Thanx again Bill.
If it takes many weeks or sometimes months for the testes to return to normal then why do we keep any gains at all. would many weeks of low test cause us to loose all our gains?:confused:
 
I had no idea that this question would illicit such a storm of controversy. I have not used Bill's method as of yet, but clomid alone has not impressed me.
 
Eviscerator one thing I am certain on is that clomid will not work properly with an above average androgen level in the system.
Bill Roberts seems to think that HCG post cycle will raise androgen levels too high and delay the recovery, Bill L disagrees with this and thinks that the testes often need to be shocked back into producing test with some H C G post cycle.

It seems funny to me that the testes would need a "kick" with H C G in order to help them start up when the natural hormone that does this(LH) is giving the signal, with clomid use post cycle. If they don't respond well to LH then I can't see them responding to H C G..I could be wrong though.

I tend to agree with Bill Roberts and Huck on this one but who knows for sure.

I got a good reply from a well respected bro at triedia. The bro recommended H C G for the last few weeks of the cycle at 500 per day, but not during the recovery, because he too thinks it will increase androgen levels and prolong the recovery.
I wish we had some abstracts on this issue

:(
 
IMO, HCG followed by Clomid, or Nolvadex, doesn't matter which one, Arimidex, may be Bromocriptin (haven't tryied it myself), nootropics (not nessecery for everyone, so you have to find out for yourself),creatine, glutamine, and multi-vitamins/minerals is the way to go.
It's the mildest approach. You can always add insulin, GH, EPO,etc, but it has nothing to do with original topic.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

T
how to use hcg in pre-pct
Replies
7
Views
963
ceo
ceo
E
Rate my Roid and PCT cycle.
Replies
11
Views
547
Demon_throne
Demon_throne
Z
using hcg for large nuts in pct
Replies
9
Views
1K
s.gentz
s.gentz
C
First cycle advice
Replies
26
Views
732
koba
koba
G
adding hcg to pct help
Replies
12
Views
2K
Quadsweep
Quadsweep
Top Bottom