HCG help

[ceelo]

Hello, I know this is my first post, but I've been on another forum for 6-7 months before I think that it got shutdown and I learned quite a bit. However I am still learning a lot.

I am currently on a Sust 300 cycle that have been on for 5 weeks. I kick started it with Superdrol and I am going to be starting Dbol next week. I wanted to throw in some hcg and I have a 10,000 iu bottle from my TRT and I wanted to know how much should I take to start getting my testicles back in full stride.

I think that the Doc had me taking 1cc EOD for 3,000 ius, but I don't think that I need that much right now. Any help will be appreciated.

 

[mrribbit]

Hello, I know this is my first post, but I've been on another forum for 6-7 months before I think that it got shutdown and I learned quite a bit. However I am still learning a lot.

I am currently on a Sust 300 cycle that have been on for 5 weeks. I kick started it with Superdrol and I am going to be starting Dbol next week. I wanted to throw in some hcg and I have a 10,000 iu bottle from my TRT and I wanted to know how much should I take to start getting my testicles back in full stride.

I think that the Doc had me taking 1cc EOD for 3,000 ius, but I don't think that I need that much right now. Any help will be appreciated.

Ok bro, the proper dosing for HCG while on cycle should look something like this:

500iu's 2x's a week or 250iu's eod. Its better if you do it eod because it helps keep your nuts from going "on and off" so much.
Considering you have been on the sust for 5 weeks and assuming that you will be on it for 7 more, I would do 500iu's eod for 2 weeks and then resume the normal dosing schedule at 250iu's eod for the remainder of the cycle. You should use it for at least on week after your last inj depending on your pct. Pp can really help here. I love the derma sustain, in fact its what I use after a test cycle. Good luck bro!

Oh and Welcome to EF bro!!

 

[Heath82]

if you do 500 ius 2x a week, your gonna have alot left over. hcg is only good for 30days and by then ud have only used 3 or 4000ius. your best bet if you want to run it during cycle is to get some more, try to get a few 1500iu amps for this. if u wanted to use it strictly for pct, run 1000ius 3x a week for 3 weeks. you will have enough for this.

 

[ceelo]

Thanks a lot guys. For all your help. You have been very helpful.

 

[ceelo]

How are the ampules dosed though? If it is a 2000 iu Ampule would that be 2000 ius per cc. So if I wanted to do 500 ius, I would need to do a little over .2 or .5cc for 1000 ius?

 

[Heath82]

it all depends on how much water you use. you need to throw out the water it came with, and get some bacteriostatic water. 1ml bac water would net you 2000ius per ml. if you did 1ml and used a slin pin, every 25 on the syringe would be 500ius. if doing it this way you need to do subcutanous injections.

 

[Heath82]

if you were to do 250 2x a week, use 2 ml water, and 2000ius will last you a month

 

[ceelo]

Thanks

 

[Big_Joe]

If a doctor has you on 3000 iu eod why do you think a bunch of guys on a forum know better then the doctor that has seen you and knows what your body needs??? If your doctor told you to do 3000 iu of Hcg EOD do 3000 iu EOD. You're stupid if you ignore your doctors advice and do what someone that has never seen you, has no idea what health problems you have or any idea of what your blood test shows.

 

[swole]

If a doctor has you on 3000 iu eod why do you think a bunch of guys on a forum know better then the doctor that has seen you and knows what your body needs??? If your doctor told you to do 3000 iu of Hcg EOD do 3000 iu EOD. You're stupid if you ignore your doctors advice and do what someone that has never seen you, has no idea what health problems you have or any idea of what your blood test shows.

honestly i think some doctors are morons. plain and simple

the doc's probably just reciting some general recommended dose that he came across once during his studies

why risk LH desensitization and a drastic E2 spike with 3000iu EOD when 500iu can serve the purpose?

 

[needsize]

hcg has an active life of around 64 hours, so there is no need to hit it eod, twice a week will keep hcg active in your body basically for the full week....I have been using 500iu 2x weekly for years, on cycles that last for years, and have had two kids on 3000mg a week cycles, without any problems or desensitization....
this approach is the way most hrt docs will prescribe it

 

[hurricane]

250iu 2X a week when on should be fine .. works for me

 

[smtimelevi]

What if someone was on a really low dose cycle? Does user still need 250iu twice per week? HCG will cause aromatization from what I understand. Less with a small cycle?

 

[Big_Joe]

honestly i think some doctors are morons. plain and simple

the doc's probably just reciting some general recommended dose that he came across once during his studies

why risk LH desensitization and a drastic E2 spike with 3000iu EOD when 500iu can serve the purpose?

Well I think some people on this forum are morons for not listening to their doctors!!


The reason that people on the internet say 250 or 500 iu is because of a guy that has his login name as Dr. Swale. He was the first guy that said to use that amount for control of testicular shrinkage. Doctors aren't stupid they are cautious. You have no reason to say that the dose prescribed by his doctor will cause desensitization. And you have no evidence that 500 iu will do the job. You're just repeating what you have seen posted on the forum by people that are repeating what they have read. Exactly what you claim for "moron" doctors.

Here is facts to ponder:
Desensitization of mouse Leydig cells in vivo: evi...[Biol Reprod. 1985] - PubMed Result
And I will save you the trouble of reading it by cut and pasting the conclusion.
"In conclusion, our data indicate that the impaired steroidogenesis in mouse Leydig cells desensitized in vivo by a single injection of hCG is the result of a depletion in cellular cholesterol, rather than of an impaired conversion of cholesterol to testosterone."

This study shows that when the leydig cells stop producing testosterone after a single large injection of Hcg is because they have used up all the available cholesterol. And if you didn't know, and I suspect you didn't, cholesterol is the basic building block of testosterone. The leydig cells convert cholesterol into testosterone.

So there is no desensitization only a reduction of the available cholesterol. The leydig cells are fine they just can't make any more testosterone because they don't have any cholesterol.

There are studies that have looked at low dose Hcg but they only checked intratesticular testosterone. Not bound or free testosterone in the rest of the body. So any information you try to gain from the low dose studies is useless because you have idea how much testosterone is available in the body. And in my opinion it is natural for levels to increase when you check the intracellular area that is right agaisnt the cells producing what you are checking for.

So I say follow your doctors advice he knows more the the "morons" that just repeat what they have read do.

And just for fun here is a link to a study that check on men that were shutdown from 12 weeks of 200mg per week of testosterone enanthate. It took six months of 5000 iu three time a week for SIX MONTHS to get them back to normal sperm production.

Stimulation of sperm production by human chorionic gonadotropin after prolonged gonadotropin suppression in normal men -- Matsumoto and Bremner 6 (3): 137 -- Journal of Andrology

And by the way there was no mention of anybody in the study having desensitization of the leydig cells after the 5000 iu three times a week for six months. SO your your assertion that 3000 iu once will cause desensitization is baseless.

 

[swole]

1 - the control group was ON 200mg of cyp EW throughout their intended recovery period, the fact you emphasize it took them 6 months implies 5000iu 3xEW is a reasonable dose; if they dropped exogenous test altogether it would probably take 1/4 of that amount weekly to achieve the same or better results

then again you would need blood tests so neither of us can confirm

2 - my theory is based on what works for me and how I feel. I am not basing my dose on sperm count or blood tests but rather how shut down I feel and I'm sure as experienced as you sound (not being a dick) I know you KNOW how this feels. I don't regurgitate information I read, I speak only from experience. I'll never give advice on compounds I've never taken.

I am interested in the part where leydig cells stop making test because of lacking available cholesterol. This would counter all arguments stating HCG is suppressive.

 

[Big_Joe]

1 - the control group was ON 200mg of cyp EW throughout their intended recovery period, the fact you emphasize it took them 6 months implies 5000iu 3xEW is a reasonable dose; if they dropped exogenous test altogether it would probably take 1/4 of that amount weekly to achieve the same or better results

then again you would need blood tests so neither of us can confirm

2 - my theory is based on what works for me and how I feel. I am not basing my dose on sperm count or blood tests but rather how shut down I feel and I'm sure as experienced as you sound (not being a dick) I know you KNOW how this feels. I don't regurgitate information I read, I speak only from experience. I'll never give advice on compounds I've never taken.

I am interested in the part where leydig cells stop making test because of lacking available cholesterol. This would counter all arguments stating HCG is suppressive.

I agree with you about the guys that had six months of 5000 iu three times a week. I think that is excessive. But they showed no signs of being desensitized. That's why I placed emphasis on the six months. I see LOTS of people, on many forums, saying that you will desensitize your leydig cells using Hcg. I have been searching the literature looking for anything that would back that up. I have been unable to find anything that would support this. And I have found lots that disputes it. I suspect it was a theory that they leydig cells were desensitized because some people noticed a drop in testosterone production. But it wasn't because of desensitized leydig cells it was because of no cholesterol for the cells to convert to testosterone.

So if your doctor says do 3000 iu maybe he does know what you need. And I'm sure you can tell how your body feels and you are happy with the results you get from doing the low dose. That's great but I hesitate to extend that as a recommendation to everybody. I know for myself I'm not "normal." My body has been through chemo twice and my nervous and endocrine systems are severely effected ( I have neuropathy, from the chemo, that gives me chronic pain and a "gruff" personality ). I tried the low dose of 250 iu three time a week and it did nothing. I then went to 500 iu and it did nothing. I then tried using 2000 iu, the Chinese Hcg dosed at 2000 iu per vial might be bad so it might not have been a good test, and it did nothing. So I used some Hcg from a Swiss company , IBSA, dosed at 5000 iu and that worked for me. I had a noticeable increase in my ejaculate. So I think if a doctor that has done tests, hopefully the correct tests, and has made a diagnosis and treatment plan one should follow that plan. In this case it seems that there really is nothing to lose from doing so and everything to gain.