HCG Help!

[chyllaxyn]

I’m reading so much conflicting information about HCG I’m reluctant to even start the debate.
I’ve read “it is as suppressive to the rest of the HPTA as AAS. So it should NOT be used DURING PCT”
But then I read knowledgeable people who say “it’s essential for recovery.”
And the legit HRT clinics seem to use it heavily.
I’m guessing both statement are true but then …. should HCG be used to bridge end of AAS cycle and PCT or during PCT?
Is 500IU twice a week enough? Or is 1000IU about right? For how long?
IM or subq? Is it a pain in the ass to mix and store?

I know this depends on an individual cycles but I’m just trying to get a feel for the general opinion of HCG for say a typical 500mg 10week test cycle.


/flame away

 

[TheAssholeFomerlyKnownAsDBBT]

I’m reading so much conflicting information about HCG I’m reluctant to even start the debate.
I’ve read “it is as suppressive to the rest of the HPTA as AAS. So it should NOT be used DURING PCT”
But then I read knowledgeable people who say “it’s essential for recovery.”
And the legit HRT clinics seem to use it heavily.
I’m guessing both statement are true but then …. should HCG be used to bridge end of AAS cycle and PCT or during PCT?
Is 500IU twice a week enough? Or is 1000IU about right? For how long?
IM or subq? Is it a pain in the ass to mix and store?

I know this depends on an individual cycles but I’m just trying to get a feel for the general opinion of HCG for say a typical 500mg 10week test cycle.


/flame away

Take it 500ius a day mid cycle for then days and then at the end of your cycle last ten days, then take it another 10 days at the end of PCT

 

[nydj66]

Testosterone production is a chain reaction where the hypothalamus produces gonadotropin-releasing hormone (GRH) which signals the pituitary to produce luteinizing hormone (LH) which signals the testes to produce testosterone.

After about 3 weeks of AAS use (at body building dosages) this entire system is shut down. During recovery, the hypothalamus recovers first, then the pituitary, and finally the testes. Basically it takes about 3 weeks for the pituitary to recover and produce the normal amount of LH. If the testes have atrophied, they can take another 3-4 weeks to recover after LH levels have returned.

HCG can mimic LH and stimulate the testes to produce testosterone, but it will suppress the hypothalamus and pituitary just the same as AAS. So there are two proper uses of HCG:

During cycle to keep the testes from atrophying in the first place

or

The last 2 or three weeks that AAS are in your system, to recover testicular function in preparation for clomid/nolvadex to recover the hypothalamus/pituitary.

In this last case, I recommend 1000IU EOD for 2-3 weeks. This amount is enough to be effective and not high enough to cause desensitization. People do use both lower and higher dosages effectively and everyone responds differently. Feel free to determine through trial and error what works effectively for you. Just use common sense make safety your #1 priority.

 

[chyllaxyn]

THANKS nydj66 !

Even I could understand that, well said.

Using HCG the last 2 - 3 weeks in reparation for clomid/nolvadex is what I'm hearing from people that know their gear.

1000IU EOD for severl weeks post cycle is about the same as I've seen promoted at the legit HRT clinics. Not saying the doctors at these places know more than people here. Probably Not which is why I'm here and not standing in that line.

thanks again,,

 

[Thom]

The last 2 or three weeks that AAS are in your system, to recover testicular function in preparation for clomid/nolvadex to recover the hypothalamus/pituitary.

In this last case, I recommend 1000IU EOD for 2-3 weeks. This amount is enough to be effective and not high enough to cause desensitization. People do use both lower and higher dosages effectively and everyone responds differently. Feel free to determine through trial and error what works effectively for you. Just use common sense make safety your #1 priority.

1000iu eod is probably what I'm going to do. If HCG can help just a little to recover than it's worth it.
But I've read somewhere that you have to wait a while after your last shot with hcg before you can start clomid. Is this true?

How would you implement hcg and clomid if you are supposed to start clomid three days after a last injection with propionate/tren, which is 12 hours after the last tabb with winny?

thanks
thom

 

[Phaded]

how much do you take so you can have better sex? I am shut down bad and I am rackin up girls like theres no tommorow! I need help guys. Gettin my hcg tommorow, it is pregnyl hcg I geuss. Karma for any one who helps.

 

[nydj66]

1000iu eod is probably what I'm going to do. If HCG can help just a little to recover than it's worth it.
But I've read somewhere that you have to wait a while after your last shot with hcg before you can start clomid. Is this true?

How would you implement hcg and clomid if you are supposed to start clomid three days after a last injection with propionate/tren, which is 12 hours after the last tabb with winny?

thanks
thom

Mixing HCG and clomid won't hurt you in any way. The only concern is that your hypothalamus/pituitary cannot start recovery while the HCG is still active (about 3 days).

So for your situation here's how I'd handle it:

If you stop the prop, tren and winny all at the same time, the prop will stay in your system the longest and that is the determining factor as to when to start clomid. For prop I recommend starting clomid 1 week after last injection.

I'm guessing that your cycle was less than 10 weeks so 1 week before the last prop injection, start the HCG 1000IU EOD and continue this until 1 week after the last prop injection. This will require 5000IU total of HCG.

Wait a couple of days after the last HCG shot, then begin clomid for 3-4 weeks.

 

[Thom]

Mixing HCG and clomid won't hurt you in any way. The only concern is that your hypothalamus/pituitary cannot start recovery while the HCG is still active (about 3 days).

So for your situation here's how I'd handle it:

If you stop the prop, tren and winny all at the same time, the prop will stay in your system the longest and that is the determining factor as to when to start clomid. For prop I recommend starting clomid 1 week after last injection.

I'm guessing that your cycle was less than 10 weeks so 1 week before the last prop injection, start the HCG 1000IU EOD and continue this until 1 week after the last prop injection. This will require 5000IU total of HCG.

Wait a couple of days after the last HCG shot, then begin clomid for 3-4 weeks.

thanks bro, sounds good. one thing. I've always learned that you should start clomid 3 days after last shot with prop.
for example here: http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/clomid-hcg.asp

 

[Thom]

bump

 

[nydj66]

thanks bro, sounds good. one thing. I've always learned that you should start clomid 3 days after last shot with prop.
for example here: http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/clomid-hcg.asp

You want to start clomid when you drop below 200mg/week of gear being absorbed into your bloodstream so ultimately it depends on how much you are taking.

Really there isn't much difference between 3 days and 7 for this purpose. If you start at 3 days and it's too soon, you didn't waste a whole lot of money for 4 days worth of clomid. And, it you wait to 7 days and it's too late, you won't have lost any significant gains in 4 days.

 

[crfpilot14]

depending on the dose of HCG you are taking you can get some benefit with clomid concurrent with HCG. take 500IU eod along with the clomid (50-100mg ed) 1wk after last injection for 3wks, then continue the clomid therapy. if you are using adex in the cycle, go ahead and continue it through the end of PCT. PCT is not rocket science. as long as you follow some basic principles you will be fine. some with need more therpay than others. good luck.

 

[ninja900]

Good stuff NYDJ, thanks for the help

 

[chyllaxyn]

From what I'm reading starting Clomid depends on AS level.
Found this chart somewhere,
---
Steroid - Time after last administration - Length of Clomid Cycle
Anadrol50/Anapolan50: 8 - 12 hours 3 weeks
Deca durabolan: 3 weeks 4 weeks
Dianabol: 4 - 8 hours 3 weeks
Equipoise: 17 - 21 days 3 weeks
Finajet/Trenbolone: 3 days 3 weeks
Primabolan depot: 10 - 14 days 2 weeks
Sustanon: 3 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Cypionate: 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Enanthate/Testaviron: 2 weeks 3 weeks
Testosterone Propionate: 3 days 3 weeks
Testosterone Suspension: 4 - 8 hours 2-3 weeks
Winstrol 8 - 12 hours 2-3 weeks


----edit---
ps: I'm not claiming expert knowledge so take this at face value but it seemed pretty reasonable

 

[crfpilot14]

the PCT durations are all too short for my taste.

 

[Thom]

the PCT durations are all too short for my taste.

I agree. I can handle clomid pretty well. Accutane and b5 prevents acne. I get a little moody, but no big deal. Therefore I run in for max 6 weeks. Then i get my bloodwork checked 2-3 weeks after. Still not satisifed (which I'm usually are), I run some more.

 

[chyllaxyn]

How does this sound after a 8wk 500mg sust cycle,

day 21 200mg clomid
next 5 days 50mg clomid + 20mb nolva
next 20days 20mb nolva


mixing clom and nolva for no other reason than using what’s at hand

 

[crfpilot14]

after an 8wk test only cycle just do the 300mg clomid day1, 150mg day2-7, then 50mg day8-21. if you have some arimidex, use it ed during PCT. it significantly increases natural test production. but may not be needed in your case. go get your levels checked 3wks after the clomid and make some changes as needed. or just post them up on here...you want to be off for at least 6wks to get accurate values for your blood work depending on what you were using. keep it simple. the PCT forum has so much info about this very thing, and more people willing to help. they just want you to show that you have done some of the work already. some of my colleagues make a pretty penny designing recovery medication/dosages in HRT clinics and these guys give it for free! just have to know how to play the game! good luck.

 

[nydj66]

after an 8wk test only cycle just do the 300mg clomid day1, 150mg day2-7, then 50mg day8-21. if you have some arimidex, use it ed during PCT. it significantly increases natural test production. but may not be needed in your case.

Arimidex is an aromatase inhibitor that prevents testosterone from converting to estrogen. It will raise serum testosterone levels in a man who is already producing testosterone through its ability to prevent aromatization.

However, since your body is not producing testosterone through most of PCT, arimidex does nothing and is a waste of money. A SERM (like clomid or nolvadex) on the other hand has the ability to block estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and increase GRH levels (which increase LH levels which increases testosterone). A SERM works because a man can produce some estrogen directly (as apposed to through aromatization of testosterone) and this estrogen production will be elevated coming off a cycle.

 

[crfpilot14]

Arimidex is an aromatase inhibitor that prevents testosterone from converting to estrogen. It will raise serum testosterone levels in a man who is already producing testosterone through its ability to prevent aromatization.

However, since your body is not producing testosterone through most of PCT, arimidex does nothing and is a waste of money. A SERM (like clomid or nolvadex) on the other hand has the ability to block estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and increase GRH levels (which increase LH levels which increases testosterone). A SERM works because a man can produce some estrogen directly (as apposed to through aromatization of testosterone) and this estrogen production will be elevated coming off a cycle.

pretty bold statement to say that it is useless! is that your theory or have you read studies that say this?
Estrogen is the main inhibitor of restoring HPTA, and AI administration has been shown to increase gonadotrophin concentrations and serum testosterone by up to 50%. In addition, by adding an AI, the inhibition of excess estrogen allows Tamoxifen to work greater at LH stimulation in the begining stages of PCT. AI use will also lessen the increase in the amount of SHBG which allows free testosterone to reach baseline much quicker. This will also have the effect of preventing the decline in libido. so it is not useless for PCT, but actually necessary.

some good reads on the subject..
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jon13.htm
http://forums.anabolicreview.com/showthread.php?t=94545

 

[nydj66]

pretty bold statement to say that it is useless! is that your theory or have you read studies that say this?
Estrogen is the main inhibitor of restoring HPTA, and AI administration has been shown to increase gonadotrophin concentrations and serum testosterone by up to 50%. In addition, by adding an AI, the inhibition of excess estrogen allows Tamoxifen to work greater at LH stimulation in the begining stages of PCT. AI use will also lessen the increase in the amount of SHBG which allows free testosterone to reach baseline much quicker. This will also have the effect of preventing the decline in libido. so it is not useless for PCT, but actually necessary.

some good reads on the subject..
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/jon13.htm
http://forums.anabolicreview.com/showthread.php?t=94545

I am saying that coming off cycle your endogenous testosterone production is zero so once any exogenous AAS has worked out of your system there is nothing to aromatize to estrogen. Thus an AI is useless.

You're right that eventually your body will start to produce testosterone again and the arimidex will have something to inhibit. But at that point you're well on your way to recovery and your SERM is still blocking most of the estrogen from activating receptors at the hypothalamus so arimidex is still not needed.

 

[crfpilot14]

I am saying that coming off cycle your endogenous testosterone production is zero so once any exogenous AAS has worked out of your system there is nothing to aromatize to estrogen. Thus an AI is useless.

You're right that eventually your body will start to produce testosterone again and the arimidex will have something to inhibit. But at that point you're well on your way to recovery and your SERM is still blocking most of the estrogen from activating receptors at the hypothalamus so arimidex is still not needed.

the main reason why it is needed b/c normally coming off a cycle your SHBG will increase which will bind most of the free test that is produced leaving your ratio still off. the AI will prevent this elevation and allow for faster natural test recovery. i am simply stating that the AI will hasten the return to baseline of the natural test level. without it, one would likely return to normal over time. your point is taken, and has been the method most used to date. the use of HCG and an AI along with the SERMs will become the standard if it hasnt already. i did a rotation with an endocrinologist in and HRT clinic when i was in medical school. everyone was given HCG and clomid. most got an AI also. just my experience. AIs have been shown to increase natural test levels by over 50% when used with SERMs compared to SERMs alone. i will try to find that study and post it...

 

[crfpilot14]

but there is a fine line with adex in PCT however...you dont want to suppress the estrogen too low b/c it will make your lipid profile even worse which is a killer for BBers. makes your young body like a 50somethings...as far as atherosclerosis is concerned. so if you use adex it is wise to get bloodwork to monitor progress to optimize dosing.

 

[nydj66]

the main reason why it is needed b/c normally coming off a cycle your SHBG will increase which will bind most of the free test that is produced leaving your ratio still off. the AI will prevent this elevation and allow for faster natural test recovery. i am simply stating that the AI will hasten the return to baseline of the natural test level. without it, one would likely return to normal over time. your point is taken, and has been the method most used to date. the use of HCG and an AI along with the SERMs will become the standard if it hasnt already. i did a rotation with an endocrinologist in and HRT clinic when i was in medical school. everyone was given HCG and clomid. most got an AI also. just my experience. AIs have been shown to increase natural test levels by over 50% when used with SERMs compared to SERMs alone. i will try to find that study and post it...

I see where you are going with this but when I did a google search I was unable to verify that arimidex can lower SHBG independent of it's action as an AI.

If it in fact can lower SHBG, then it would be useful about the 3rd week of PCT.

 

[crfpilot14]

not necessarily lower it, but it will help to lessen the increase in SHBG that comes after the cycle.