Havoc!!!!!!!!!!

[The Shadow]

You using an alias????



http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=142802

 

[havoc]

No, but the man has some good words. peace

 

[The Shadow]

 

[casavant]

No, but the man has some good words. peace

The hot-headed, name calling nature of his post detracts validity from his argument, as do his blanket statements concerning steroids and steroid users.

 

[MrMuscle]

that approach doesnt work. ive tried it.

 

[Frackal]

No, but the man has some good words. peace

\

You know havoc there is as much and actually quite a bit more misinformation and histeria about steroid dangers then there are about marijuana....I would expect you to recognize that. I'm not saying of course that there is anything at all wrong with not using them, it IS probably the healthier choice, at least until you get old enough to benefit from hormone replacement therapy, but I fail to understand why YOU are against steroid use...most naturals who are are normally 'haters' but you are not in that situation....

 

[Frackal]

BTW- In my case of use, I only use testostrone(+liquidex+proscar), oxandrolone (anavar), equipoise in the future and possibly 1 or 2 additional compounds if needed after that. If you know enough about steroids to condemn them havoc than you should also know that using these drugs is a safer route than most take.

 

[havoc]

\

You know havoc there is as much and actually quite a bit more misinformation and histeria about steroid dangers then there are about marijuana....I would expect you to recognize that. I'm not saying of course that there is anything at all wrong with not using them, it IS probably the healthier choice, at least until you get old enough to benefit from hormone replacement therapy, but I fail to understand why YOU are against steroid use...most naturals who are are normally 'haters' but you are not in that situation....

Man , I have typed like 3 different answers to your statement, but none do any justice, my thoughts are quite scattered on this topic.I'm not sure if I can explain myself on a computer screen in regards to this subject. I honestly believe through proper diet, training and consistency one can achieve a respectable physique naturally. What happens when a pro gets off gear? They shrink, look at sloppy ol Dorian Yates or any pro in the offseason. A pro from Texas did a guest pose at a show in Texas last year, I was there, well it so happend he was changing in the bathroom where I was changing (it was hot as hell and I had dressed improperly, so I was changing my long sleeve to a Tshirt), to be honest, I was hype, like "lets see what this fucker has", man I was disgusted, this fool is a pro and looked like some sloppy ass shit, he asks "damn , what are you putting in your gumbo?", I'm like "nothing man, never fucked with gear", then walked out due to his silence. Gear is garbage, your body takes you back to where you were supposed to be when your off, use what you were born with, not synthetics or veterinary medicines. Gear is a shortcut. I have almost done something but never went through with it, even went as far as asking some mods for advice and a source but asked myself "whats the point". Sure guys who use train hard, exert full effort, etc. but do that shit without it. Motherfuckers on here that have done cycle after cycle after cycle and so on looking like a pile of shit, having no clue what lifting is about. I must say that this is my opinion and in no way really displays my all out feelings on this subject, I cant convey it on a computer screen. peace

 

[casavant]

Havoc, I hear you. Like I said in my post a week or so ago, I probably won't do another run for quite a while based on some of the same issues that you listed above. I could see how someone without our genetics to make good gains naturally could be more gung ho about it though (this isn't directed toward you, Frack my man.)

 

[havoc]

Havoc, I hear you. Like I said in my post a week or so ago, I probably won't do another run for quite a while based on some of the same issues that you listed above. I could see how someone without our genetics to make good gains naturally could be more gung ho about it though (this isn't directed toward you, Frack my man.)

I hear that, but don't buy it, how does one know his/her genetics in true fashion without giving it a good 4 - 5 years of consistent training/diet? They don't, they say "its gear time", poop.

 

[The Shadow]

Guys like Cass and especially Havoc should not have to explain their beliefs to anyone.

I may not agree with the specifics but I repsect the decision they have made and the way in which they defend it.

 

[casavant]

I hear that, but don't buy it, how does one know his/her genetics in true fashion without giving it a good 4 - 5 years of consistent training/diet? They don't, they say "its gear time", poop.

I agree on that. They haven't developed the physical base nor the knowledge to do the stuff justice, and they end up looking pathetically average like so many who've posted on the board. You're right on about the diet and training. All the gear in the world can't make up for neglect in those areas. The power of food is pretty amazing.

 

[casavant]

Guys like Cass and especially Havoc should not have to explain their beliefs to anyone.

I may not agree with the specifics but I repsect the decision they have made and the way in which they defend it.

Don't get me wrong- I'm definitely not anti-AAS. In the end, it does all come down to a personal decision.

 

[The Shadow]

Don't get me wrong- I'm definitely not anti-AAS. In the end, it does all come down to a personal decision.

Exactly.

 

[Frackal]

Corn, why shouldnt havoc 'have to' explain his beliefs...it's not like I'm calling him out or something, just discussing....

Havoc, you make some good points in your preceeding paragraph...however, first of all steroids were not responsible in any fashion to that guy looking like garbage..that is all based on diet and training, if he were not 'on' then he would certainly look worse than he did provided he had the same habits...also remember pro bodybuilders are all about food....many of them consume massive amounts of calories at any cost in an effort to put on more muscle even if they look like a lop of shit in the offseason, Lee Priest is of course the best example.

As far as keeping gains, that is hard to say. AAS (contrary to decem's unresearched and vastly incorrect opinions on this) has the potential to actually increase your genetic potential for permanent mass.[size=-999]1[/size]

"Hello, Im new here but old to the game. Four years ago I was 195 lbs and started juicing, heavily. I wont like, I was using a shitload. I did this for two years, two years later I weighed over 300 lbs. Remember, my natural weight was only around 185 lbs if I didn't train. Now after two years of no juice, im 240 at about seven percent bodyfat. The only way to justify this is a modification in my genetics. I know for a fact they changed my genetics.

Cage"

Just one example.

Now, your view on steroids (IMO) is akin to many people's views on marijuana. For example, you look at steroid users, many of whom on this board literally do not even look like they train at all, and you think, WTF, this is garbage. Then you look at the other end, the pros, who basically are a total mess of gh, insulin, synthol, heavy androgens, possibly cytokines like (IL-15), etc etc etc and you say to yourself..."yes, definitely garbage, this is a fucking circus."

Now let's take the same approach to marijuana. I look at the average irresponsible marijuana user. He is scruffy, dirty, unhealthy, quite braindead, prone to conversational interjections such as "fuck yeah dude, fuckin i went to the store today and fuckin " blah blah.... I say "wow, marijuana causes people to be stupid, this stuff is garbage.

Then Ilook at the hardcore drug users who smoke weed, snort up toilet chemist powder, shoot heroin and say, "oh yeah, it's true, marijuna is a gateway drug, definitely garbage, this shit is a fucking circus."

Do you see the similiarites? The point is, steroids are simply a tool. For one who has experience with them, it becomes more clear that they are nothing mystical and using them should not be akin to crossing some huge canyon of moral choice.

It's all about the user....proper AAS use (dosage-wise) was prevelant back in Arnold's day and beyond, it is simply ridiculous to blame steroids for the current state of the pros, insulin, gh etc are responsible for these cro magnum asthmatics.

As far as the people on this board looking like shit, it should only reaffirm your knowledge that AAS is far from magic, it is simply a catalyst, nothing more. An extra booster engine to your rocket ship to planet muscle.. (ha ha ) Without the rest of the rocket in proper order the rocket booster isn't going to do a damn thing...

Hope that cleared some things up and made some sense. One reason I am very pro-AAS is because after 13 months of pure hell and no healing progress with my back, I not only made great leaps recovery but also gained back that which I had lost from the injury....it literally saved me by strengtheing my back without me having to strain it first.


1. http://209.11.101.244/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=129470&highlight=genetic

 

[Lord_Suston]

Now this is one fine argument with thought out statements and open minds. My own opinion my not count much to everyone but here it is. There is use and abuse. Abuse is pure ignorance and reckless endangerment of one or other's lives. use is responsible taking that does not endanger any one.

I don't condone streoid use but I don't condem it either I have done mine after hard years of training, and yes I was not up to my genetic potential. But it did show where this point was and I learned how to train properly and get my diet down. I belive steroids to be like any other tool, a benefit or a hazard depending on the weilder. Sometimes people who are natural complain about juicers and the vice versus, but in the end we are trying to better are bodies.

I applaud anyone with a good physique and the determination it took to get there, no matter what path. But I despise those who hate because of the path someone took, it still took effort and dedication...

 

[havoc]

Excellent replies from Frackal and Lord Suston, I hear both of you and agree, I have ran the exact scenarios in my head that have been laid out in this thread, considered every angle, yet I still cannot be convinced that AS is an answer in any way possible, unless used for disease or a debilitating purposes. No matter what genetics one has AS is still not the answer in my opinion. If one has shitty genes then AS will not help, if one has great genes then AS will not help, Why? Because you go back to where you were if not worse due to psychological issues associated and lack of mental strength. Now I know there are folks out there that prove my statement incorrect, however, they are few and far between. If you are one of the few and far between then a big congrats goes out to you. If AS has helped you I think that is great. But for most, AS, has done nothing but waste your money and give you gains that were not kept. Gear heads automatically think since they are on that they know whats going on in the gym, that they know what lifting is about, lifting is pure, its not to be altered through a needle, and especially not to be used to boast and brag about a lift or gains when some injection is doing the work, that gets no respect, and if I have offended anyone then so be it. peace

 

[casavant]

...lifting is pure, its not to be altered through a needle, and especially not to be used to boast and brag about a lift or gains when some injection is doing the work, that gets no respect, and if I have offended anyone then so be it. peace

But this statement leads to the argument of what is considered "pure" and what is not. My veiw is that everything is on a continuum, and the difference in any supplement, either legal or illegal, is quantitative and not qualitative. Which again leads us back to the matter of personal choice.

 

[havoc]

But this statement leads to the argument of what is considered "pure" and what is not. My veiw is that everything is on a continuum, and the difference in any supplement, either legal or illegal, is quantitative and not qualitative. Which again leads us back to the matter of personal choice.

Exactly, my thoughts are my opinion. peace