Have we already subverted the second amendment?

[mrplunkey]

Our forefathers had a number of concerns when they formed this country. Among them were:

1) A re-invasion by the Brittish (or other country)

2) The formation of a tyranical goverment

To prevent that, they cited the need for an armed public that could rise-up against this threat. The idea was if tyranny resurfaced, an armed citizenship could rise against it as they did in the revolutionary war.

Today, even though americans can own firearms, we are far short of the firepower necessary to overthrow our own goverment. Military equipment has simply progressed too far.

So... have we already subverted the second amendment? Should we take measures to close the "arms gap" between the public and the government?

 

[katdav]

Our forefathers had a number of concerns when they formed this country. Among them were:

1) A re-invasion by the Brittish (or other country)

2) The formation of a tyranical goverment

To prevent that, they cited the need for an armed public that could rise-up against this threat. The idea was if tyranny resurfaced, an armed citizenship could rise against it as they did in the revolutionary war.

Today, even though americans can own firearms, we are far short of the firepower necessary to overthrow our own goverment. Military equipment has simply progressed too far.

So... have we already subverted the second amendment? Should we take measures to close the "arms gap" between the public and the government?

It went well for those guys at Waco, TX. There's a good documentary.....

 

[mrplunkey]

It went well for those guys at Waco, TX. There's a good documentary.....

The Waco guys never had a chance. They were horribly out-gunned.

 

[katdav]

The Waco guys never had a chance. They were horribly out-gunned.

That whole thing was a mess, then the "investigation" afterwards...give me a f*cking break.......

 

[gjohnson5]

I do pretty good with my 20" biceps. Get back in the gym kiddies

 

[gotmilk]

I've posted pics of my guns here. I'm well armed just in case I have to shoot some illuminati ass

 

[bran987]

what do you propose?

 

[gjohnson5]

I think the people here should learn some martial arts before they get disarmed and shot with thier own gun...

what do you propose?

 

[needtogetaas]

who is going to be holding the guns on the govermints side if all of america revolts aganst
it.

 

[mrplunkey]

what do you propose?

A mandate to make military weapons available to the public?

At least small arms, that is.

 

[bran987]

I think the people here should learn some martial arts before they get disarmed and shot with thier own gun...

last time I checked there are only like 100 martial arts teachers in america lolol

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

Brother, we've already lost. There's no way to win that game. Remember people with legally acquired registered guns being forcibly disarmed by the military during the aftermath of Katrina? Any period of great social unrest is going to have the same consequences for us legal gun owners.

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

The only way to combat it is to have an entire community band together. The govt isnt going to try to disarm a few thousand legal gun owners during the next katrina. You have to be willing to die for it, and I dont know that I can right now.

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

it only costs a few dollars to make an AR-15 or AK fully auto, but there's no way the penalties are worth it. I wouldnt do it for anything.


I do pick up my new AR-15 tomorrow though. Going to start stockpiling ammo now.

 

[JumpBallWinner]

A mandate to make military weapons available to the public?

At least small arms, that is.

They are. As long as they, or the part that makes them full auto, was made prior to May 1986. Because of this, what lot of these weapons we have to trade amongst ourselves are considered to be the only ones we will ever have. So the price is outrageously high for such guns, because the demans is high, but the supply is dwindling and unreplaceable. There are very few things in this world that I'd take over a MP5. There is a class3 dealer in my area and he has one in his shop exactly like I want. The price? $15,000. I've seen them much higher than that. And that's not even an actual MP5. It's an HK94 that was modified using a registered flemming auto sear. You won't find a transferrable MP5 that was factory made as an MP5. And let's say that you do have the 15k to lay down for your dream gun. Well, you go to the shop, pay the 15k, plus tax, plus a $200 NFA tax for the gun, then you fill out some paperwork, get a chief law enforcement official in your city to sign off on the forms saying it's ok with them for you to own it, and then you get two passport IDs made and a few other things here and there. Then after you've done all of this, and handed over $15,000, you get to go home, without the gun you just paid for, and wait 2-6 months for the ATF to send the approval and tax stamp back to your dealer. Then he calls you, and then you can go pick up your new toy.

 

[juiceddreadlocks]

They are. As long as they, or the part that makes them full auto, was made prior to May 1986. Because of this, what lot of these weapons we have to trade amongst ourselves are considered to be the only ones we will ever have. So the price is outrageously high for such guns, because the demans is high, but the supply is dwindling and unreplaceable. There are very few things in this world that I'd take over a MP5. There is a class3 dealer in my area and he has one in his shop exactly like I want. The price? $15,000. I've seen them much higher than that. And that's not even an actual MP5. It's an HK94 that was modified using a registered flemming auto sear. You won't find a transferrable MP5 that was factory made as an MP5. And let's say that you do have the 15k to lay down for your dream gun. Well, you go to the shop, pay the 15k, plus tax, plus a $200 NFA tax for the gun, then you fill out some paperwork, get a chief law enforcement official in your city to sign off on the forms saying it's ok with them for you to own it, and then you get two passport IDs made and a few other things here and there. Then after you've done all of this, and handed over $15,000, you get to go home, without the gun you just paid for, and wait 2-6 months for the ATF to send the approval and tax stamp back to your dealer. Then he calls you, and then you can go pick up your new toy.

I thought the tax per weapon was $600??? Either way, you cant have full autos in my home state of MO. It's only like $15 for an autosear for the AR15.

 

[JumpBallWinner]

I thought the tax per weapon was $600??? Either way, you cant have full autos in my home state of MO. It's only like $15 for an autosear for the AR15.

It's $200 per NFA transfer. That goes for silencers and SBR also. So say you bought a gun with a legally chopped barrell and a silencer, then you'd have to pay $400. Or if you bought a full auto and it had a silencer on it, $400. I'm thinking about getting a couple of .22 silencers, because that's about all I can afford when it comes to class3 stuff. I live in MS. I think the full autos have always been legal here, but it's just in the last few years that they legalized the ownership of silencers. You have some states that are both, some states that are either or, and then of course, some states that are neither. What's always bothered me is that you could live in a state in which it has been declared lawfull for you to own such a weapon, and you can fully qualify for that weapon, yet not be able to get one if the chief law enforcement official in your town didn't "feel" like you needed to have it. I always viewed that as letting a law enforcement officer legislate from his position, which of course, isn't the way it's suppossed to be at all. Their job is to enforce the law, not decide which ones they are gonna allow and which ones they aren't.

 

[mrplunkey]

Yeah, but here's another way to look at it.

When the constitution was established, the military used muskets and many citizens had muskets. Now, the military uses very sophisticated firearms and the average citizen is barred (either by law or by cost) from affording either.

 

[Trojan Horse]

A reason to join the N.R.A.

 

[JumpBallWinner]

Yeah, but here's another way to look at it.

When the constitution was established, the military used muskets and many citizens had muskets. Now, the military uses very sophisticated firearms and the average citizen is barred (either by law or by cost) from affording either.

Yep. And even if it was made possible for all of us to obtain the modern small arms that the military has, we'd still be no match for tanks, apache helicopters, fighter jets, bombs etc. With our small arms, we'd be the equivilant of what they are fighting right now in Iraq and Afghanistan. Ground forces with full-auto small arms. We'd actually be at an even greater disadvantage than they are, because the government has tons of information on each and every one of us. They know who we all are, where we all are, we've each been assigned a number, and they have no trouble finding us if they need to. The best thing to do is just hope that the government never turns into a tyranny, because if it does, we are screwed.

 

[bluepeter]

Give more advanced weaponry to a citizenship that has shown a propensity to use it on each other. Great idea.

 

[Testosterone boy]

I wouldn't worry about it unless the GOP runs Guiliano or some such type. He as the ideal history for heavy handed police type operations.

Yes...he lowered clime. The he started going after jaywalkers etc.

 

[Lao Tzu]

I hope so. We liberals get our ideas straight from Hitler and he felt it was good to disarm the populace before you start implementing solutions which are for the good of the nation as a whole.

 

[Lao Tzu]

On another note, why do firearms matter? If Vietnam and Iraq have taught us anything it is explosive devices and booby traps that can turn back a military invasion. Just keep knawing away at the invaders until they get tired and go home. Simple small arms wouldn't accomplish jack shit in a US military invasion. Try shooting a tank with a 380 and see what happens. Then set up 10 pounds of explosives instead.

So a ban on black powder would be far more effective than a ban on handguns. And we can still buy black powder.

Effective tools of an insurgency
-Explosive devices, just mix black powder with some screws.
-Raids on and destruction of important economic, cultural and political centers of the oppressors. Make it impossible to run the country.
-Intimidation of lawmen and those who enforce the government's rules
-A communication infrastructure to connect people. An internet, phone system or cell phone system. This is probably the most important aspect of an insurgency, and you cannot have insurgency w/o people communicating plans and information. The US has a top notch communication infrastructure.

These are all effective tools in case of a serious invasion by the US government (which will probably never happen, this is just hypothetical. Hi ECHELON). I honestly do not get why simple firearms are considered effective tools to hold back an invasion by domestic or foreign forces. In Iraq under Saddam tons of people had AKs but there was no rebellion. Now there is a massive rebellion in Iraq. So guns themselves are not the answer. The answer is explosives, effective communication, and effective speakers and figureheads who can destroy icons, the economy and motivate people.

 

[Lao Tzu]

Not that I've given this issue thought.

 

[bluepeter]

On another note, why do firearms matter? If Vietnam and Iraq have taught us anything it is explosive devices and booby traps that can turn back a military invasion. Just keep knawing away at the invaders until they get tired and go home. Simple small arms wouldn't accomplish jack shit in a US military invasion. Try shooting a tank with a 380 and see what happens. Then set up 10 pounds of explosives instead.

So a ban on black powder would be far more effective than a ban on handguns. And we can still buy black powder.

Effective tools of an insurgency
-Explosive devices, just mix black powder with some screws.
-Raids on and destruction of important economic, cultural and political centers of the oppressors. Make it impossible to run the country.
-Intimidation of lawmen and those who enforce the government's rules
-A communication infrastructure to connect people. An internet, phone system or cell phone system. This is probably the most important aspect of an insurgency, and you cannot have insurgency w/o people communicating plans and information. The US has a top notch communication infrastructure.

These are all effective tools in case of a serious invasion by the US government (which will probably never happen, this is just hypothetical. Hi ECHELON). I honestly do not get why simple firearms are considered effective tools to hold back an invasion by domestic or foreign forces. In Iraq under Saddam tons of people had AKs but there was no rebellion. Now there is a massive rebellion in Iraq. So guns themselves are not the answer. The answer is explosives, effective communication, and effective speakers and figureheads who can destroy icons, the economy and motivate people.

That's because the staunch defenders of the second amendment are still living in 1800

 

[Lao Tzu]

That's because the staunch defenders of the second amendment are still living in 1800

Shhh. If you start telling them that pretty soon they'll figure out the founding fathers were cynical of religion instead of diehard christians. God forbid if they ever find out what Columbus actually did when he came here. let sleeping dogs lie.

 

[mrplunkey]

I hope so. We liberals get our ideas straight from Hitler and he felt it was good to disarm the populace before you start implementing solutions which are for the good of the nation as a whole.

You're not supposed to put it like that though. Stick to talking about how much you care and how good your intentions are. Then with a little media and educational system help you can transform everyone into wards of the state without firing a single shot.

P.S. Nice work on the underclass. All those social programs are doing a great job institutionalizing multiple generations of poverty. Good luck with minimum wage too, as that's our best chance right now to trigger another round of job elimination thus swelling the ranks of welfare recipients.

Not that I've given this issue thought.

 

[hanselthecaretaker]

I hope so. We liberals get our ideas straight from Hitler and he felt it was good to disarm the populace before you start implementing solutions which are for the good of the nation as a whole.

I have read a copy of germany's gun laws during the third reich which state the opposite. Of course, you had to be a german citizen to own a gun.

 

[megamania500]

They are. As long as they, or the part that makes them full auto, was made prior to May 1986. Because of this, what lot of these weapons we have to trade amongst ourselves are considered to be the only ones we will ever have. So the price is outrageously high for such guns, because the demans is high, but the supply is dwindling and unreplaceable. There are very few things in this world that I'd take over a MP5. There is a class3 dealer in my area and he has one in his shop exactly like I want. The price? $15,000. I've seen them much higher than that. And that's not even an actual MP5. It's an HK94 that was modified using a registered flemming auto sear. You won't find a transferrable MP5 that was factory made as an MP5. And let's say that you do have the 15k to lay down for your dream gun. Well, you go to the shop, pay the 15k, plus tax, plus a $200 NFA tax for the gun, then you fill out some paperwork, get a chief law enforcement official in your city to sign off on the forms saying it's ok with them for you to own it, and then you get two passport IDs made and a few other things here and there. Then after you've done all of this, and handed over $15,000, you get to go home, without the gun you just paid for, and wait 2-6 months for the ATF to send the approval and tax stamp back to your dealer. Then he calls you, and then you can go pick up your new toy.

thats what the black market is for

 

[jnevin]

This has convinced me to get myself a nuke and a howitzer on payday.

 

[Testosterone boy]

This has convinced me to get myself a nuke and a howitzer on payday.

Trust me, becoming a nuclear power is not easy.

Even if you obtained a centrifuge with the requisite power, it is hard to find ample voltage for it. So far the utility company has stymied my requests for a personal 600 volt line.

And electricians have proven reluctant to subvert a 600 volt line to my property for $60/hour.

Then you have the heavy water problem. I put some mercury in water but have a bad feeling about the efficacy of this solution.

Yellow ca*e isn't too hard to find but who knows if the quality is up to snuff?

I persist however, I want my own blue star on Colorado.









this story is fiction

 

[Lao Tzu]

You're not supposed to put it like that though. Stick to talking about how much you care and how good your intentions are. Then with a little media and educational system help you can transform everyone into wards of the state without firing a single shot.

The proper way to do it is to talk about the '10,000 kids a year who die of gun violence' and neglect to mention that about 7,000 of them are 16 year old gang members.

http://www.cato.org/dailys/05-13-00.html

1. Thousands of children die annually in gun accidents.

False. Gun accidents involving children are actually at record lows, although you wouldn't know it from listening to the mainstream media. In 1997, the last year for which data are available, only 142 children under 15 years of age died in gun accidents, and the total number of gun-related deaths for this age group was 642. More children die each year in accidents involving bikes, space heaters or drownings. The often repeated claim that 12 children per day die from gun violence includes "children" up to 20 years of age, the great majority of whom are young adult males who die in gang-related violence.

P.S. Nice work on the underclass. All those social programs are doing a great job institutionalizing multiple generations of poverty. Good luck with minimum wage too, as that's our best chance right now to trigger another round of job elimination thus swelling the ranks of welfare recipients.

Not that I've given this issue thought.

Obviously not.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfaretrap.htm

http://blog.aflcio.org/2006/10/11/nobel-winning-economists-minimum-wage-boost-will-help-economy/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15227667/

 

[gotmilk]

I'm all for killing the gang bangers.

 

[gotmilk]

it only costs a few dollars to make an AR-15 or AK fully auto

You can find them fully automatic if you know where to look.


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