had an Interesting discussion today......Squat material

[bigstve12]

So I talked with a Doc at my school. This guy is amazing, been working with mostly athletes, and he is a biomechanical expert! So we were talking squats and I basically learned 3 new things from him

1) If you could develop more dorsi flexion in your ankle, your quads will benefit more from the squat....allows you to maintain lumbar lordosis deeper into the movement so you don't have to transfer the load to your glutes.

2) Squatting ATF is actually safer for your knees than stopping at paralell

3) It is ok for your knees to go beyond your toes.....now i had a hard time believing this one..but he said there is no extra stretch on ligaments or any damaging forces applied if the knees go beyond the toes. HE said that this is some old thing that personal trainers came up with but there is no biomechanical evidence that its any safer.

Anyone have any thoughts on this??

 

[wtlftr]

How would your toes go beyond your feet?

 

[bigstve12]

its been a long day...i meant knees beyond toes..i edited it

 

[wtlftr]

ok

 

[Clean]

How would your toes go beyond your feet?

lol

 

[super_rice]

so getting more dorsiflexion as in working the tibialis? or as in stretching the gastonemius/soleus?

 

[wtlftr]

you do both with dorsiflexion. Explain how you would work the tibialis without plantarflexsion. I would like to try it.

 

[majutsu]

1) If you could develop more dorsi flexion in your ankle, your quads will benefit more from the squat....allows you to maintain lumbar lordosis deeper into the movement so you don't have to transfer the load to your glutes.

2) Squatting ATF is actually safer for your knees than stopping at paralell

3) It is ok for your knees to go beyond your toes.....now i had a hard time believing this one..but he said there is no extra stretch on ligaments or any damaging forces applied if the knees go beyond the toes. HE said that this is some old thing that personal trainers came up with but there is no biomechanical evidence that its any safer.

yep, yep, and yep. Same stuff I learned in orthopedics. Powerlifters knew all this when doctors were still spouting nonsense about the squat. We doctors decided to start listening to the people who LIFT WELL about 10-15 years ago, and lo and behold, we now have accurate information about squat biomechanics.

 

[super_rice]

maybe you guys could help me out a bit on my knee predicament?
http://boards.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=306010

 

[bigstve12]

another way to increase dorsiflexion besides stretching the gastroc/soleus is to stretch the hammys. The bicep femoris inserts on the head of the fibula. During dorsiflexion the fib drops and spreads over the ankle joint...so without that dropping you lose some dorsilexion

 

[supreme]

Awesome!

You found a doc that actually knows something!! Everything he said is true! But if you have good squat form & flexibilty, the knee really dosen't go very far past toes. It's when we have crappy flex, poor core strength & form that the body pitches forward & the knees pass over the toes.

The Dorsi flex is extremely important to be able to squat flat foot, rock solid. I am getting ART to fix mine. I have limited dorsi flex due to spraining my ankle 3X playing soccer.

To work the anterior tib in dorsi flex use a D.A.R.D - they work great!

S

 

[Sebass67]

However the further your knee goes past your toes the harder the movement becomes if your aim is to do a half squat to parallel...The joint angle if form is perfect is 90 degrees but the further your knees go over your toes the deeper your squat has to be from a joint angle perspective.

 

[Lililston]

How would your toes go beyond your feet?

lol

sorry I found that funny

 

[Lililston]

Awesome!


To work the anterior tib in dorsi flex use a D.A.R.D - they work great!

S

What is a D.A.R.D?

 

[Lililston]

Right now I think my knee may be injured, not sure though, but squatting with my knees going over my toes hurts my knees even more... My knees could take squats better if they remain vertical.

 

[bigstve12]

hey supreme can you explain DARD? 10-12 degrees of dorsiflexion is normal, but more is ok...i have about 8degrees. I really need to work on this

 

[wtlftr]

DARD= dynamic axial resistance device. An ankle rehab device. Is this what you were referring to? When reading the directions, it also suggest plantarflexion to begin the exercise.

 

[supreme]

Yep!

D.A.R.D is dynamic axial resistance device, used in rehab but strength training. Dan Duchaine and Charles Poliquin came up with some ides on muscle imbalnce and calf growth. The calves sometimes don't respond to prevent a jont imbalance. The Dard allowes you to work the ant. tib, also great for shin spints.

Here's the original tip from Dan D (courtesy of QFAC.com)

Training Tip #6 - "Some body parts, usually calves, may not respond to traditional training. There are plenty of great calves on people who don't weight train. Runners, ice skaters, skiers, bicyclists, even dancers can have great calf development. Here are the two secrets for getting calf development. Include unstable movements. The only movement in the gym that qualifies is the one-legged freestanding calf raise (holding a dumbbell). Outside of the gym, be creative. Short sprints on a gravely, slippery hillside might be an ideal exercise. The other secret? The body guards against joint instability by never allowing a muscle to overwhelm an opposing muscle. If you have weak tibialis, the muscles on each of the shinbone, the body won't want to make your calves strong or big. So include tibialis exercises with your calf workouts. Most gyms don't have a hammer tibialis machine, but you can pay the $80 to buy a D.A.R.D, the piece of equipment that pronates the foot under tension with weight plates."

Some more DARD info:

D.A.R.D. Dynamic Axial Resistance Device (ideal for calf exercises)

The DARD is a safe, convenient and portable alternative to barbells and dumbbells. It strengthens the arms and lower body, trains dorsi-flexion of the foot, develops strength and stability in the ankles, knees and the major and minor muscles of the upper leg, and increases lower leg strength and stability, while it ensures against injury. Except for the DARD and the CMF, all other exercise devices have resistance placed above the ankle. This does not permit the proper kinetic linkage, and therefore, the ability to work muscles that span the ankle joint are under developed.

The DARD enables you to tense muscles in forward contraction, inversion and eversion. This is done with one foot inverted and the other foot everted in synchrony. The versatile DARD is easily adjusted for the lowest level beginner to the strongest powerlifter. Resistance is varied in small increments by changing the size of the plates commonly used for weight training (sold separately). Moving the weight disc toward or away from the feet in any of five preset levels also decreases or increases resistance.

The DARD is an ideal conditioning appliance for athletes and anyone involved in training and conditioning. Because it can isolate the tibialis anterior muscles at the front of the lower legs, the DARD prevents or helps re-habilitate painful shin splints. It has been endorsed by the American Aerobics Association, which found the DARD to be the cure for this problem in 90% of its test patients.

This product is very versatile, but possibly the single most important aspect of the product is that with proper use it can virtually eliminate shin splints. This is truly a major breakthrough for coaches, trainers and athletes alike. It is a must for bodybuilders who experience difficulty in getting their calves to grow!


S

 

[wtlftr]

yes, but my point was, you need plantarflexion as weel for a well developedtibialis. Just being picky.

 

[supreme]

I agree 100%, to have full development you need full ROM from plantar to dorsi flexion. I was just answering what the DARD was

S

 

[wtlftr]

We both know what D.A.R.E is now. We are better informed. But, why not just run to get both?

 

[Lililston]

Yep!

D.A.R.D is dynamic axial resistance device, used in rehab but strength training. Dan Duchaine and Charles Poliquin came up with some ides on muscle imbalnce and calf growth. The calves sometimes don't respond to prevent a jont imbalance. The Dard allowes you to work the ant. tib, also great for shin spints.

Here's the original tip from Dan D (courtesy of QFAC.com)

Training Tip #6 - "Some body parts, usually calves, may not respond to traditional training. There are plenty of great calves on people who don't weight train. Runners, ice skaters, skiers, bicyclists, even dancers can have great calf development. Here are the two secrets for getting calf development. Include unstable movements. The only movement in the gym that qualifies is the one-legged freestanding calf raise (holding a dumbbell). Outside of the gym, be creative. Short sprints on a gravely, slippery hillside might be an ideal exercise. The other secret? The body guards against joint instability by never allowing a muscle to overwhelm an opposing muscle. If you have weak tibialis, the muscles on each of the shinbone, the body won't want to make your calves strong or big. So include tibialis exercises with your calf workouts. Most gyms don't have a hammer tibialis machine, but you can pay the $80 to buy a D.A.R.D, the piece of equipment that pronates the foot under tension with weight plates."

Some more DARD info:

D.A.R.D. Dynamic Axial Resistance Device (ideal for calf exercises)

The DARD is a safe, convenient and portable alternative to barbells and dumbbells. It strengthens the arms and lower body, trains dorsi-flexion of the foot, develops strength and stability in the ankles, knees and the major and minor muscles of the upper leg, and increases lower leg strength and stability, while it ensures against injury. Except for the DARD and the CMF, all other exercise devices have resistance placed above the ankle. This does not permit the proper kinetic linkage, and therefore, the ability to work muscles that span the ankle joint are under developed.

The DARD enables you to tense muscles in forward contraction, inversion and eversion. This is done with one foot inverted and the other foot everted in synchrony. The versatile DARD is easily adjusted for the lowest level beginner to the strongest powerlifter. Resistance is varied in small increments by changing the size of the plates commonly used for weight training (sold separately). Moving the weight disc toward or away from the feet in any of five preset levels also decreases or increases resistance.

The DARD is an ideal conditioning appliance for athletes and anyone involved in training and conditioning. Because it can isolate the tibialis anterior muscles at the front of the lower legs, the DARD prevents or helps re-habilitate painful shin splints. It has been endorsed by the American Aerobics Association, which found the DARD to be the cure for this problem in 90% of its test patients.

This product is very versatile, but possibly the single most important aspect of the product is that with proper use it can virtually eliminate shin splints. This is truly a major breakthrough for coaches, trainers and athletes alike. It is a must for bodybuilders who experience difficulty in getting their calves to grow!


S

Isn't exercising with this Dard the same thing as doing standing calf raises?

 

[bignate73]

no, its the flexing the heel, not extending it.

 

[wtlftr]

thanks

 

[Nonerz]

Right now I think my knee may be injured, not sure though, but squatting with my knees going over my toes hurts my knees even more... My knees could take squats better if they remain vertical.

I'm thinking this is because it's more like a "Powerlifting" style squat--incorporating more hips. I really like this style of squat...easier on my post catcher knees! I also go fairly wide as well.

 

[bigstve12]

We both know what D.A.R.E is now. We are better informed. But, why not just run to get both?

I know a lot of runners who have severly limited ROM in the ankles b/c of overuse.

What do you guys think about wobble boards?? Ive been using them for balance reasons(mostly on legged stuff) , but man when i get off that thing, my whole lower leg is on fire...front and back