Going into Vale Tudo tournament...what cycle should I do?

[Charles Ray]

Ok, I haven't trained in 6 months because of injuries and reponsibilities that I've had to take care of but the end of this summer I'm planning to go into Vale Tudo Tournament...I need to get in shape quickly and I was planning to do an Eq, Winny, Sus cycle but I don't want to gain too much weight...i'm looking to actually lose some weight but gain strength. I'm 6' 192lbs with 12% bf. I'm looking to get down to about 180 maybe 175.... What would be the best cycle to do that will help my stamina and help me gain some strength. I really don't want any water weight cuz that slows me down.... I was thinking just Sus 250 a week and Winny 50mg eod.... By the way I will DEFINITELY add test to any cycle. If any of you guys have any experience with cutting cycles before any tournaments please tell me how it went and how your stamina was. Thanks!

 

[genarr3]

The Sustenon will cause you to retain water, IMO a bad choice for someone that's trying to loose weight.
You could have cramping problems with Winstrol in addition to possible joint pain.

EQ might be good however.

Most fighters that use gear do it in the off season, at least their personal off season. I don't think it's the best idea for a fighter to put on huge amounts of muscle. Remember what happened to Vitor Belfort when he was all jacked? Can you say gased?

Steroids will do nothing for your stamina, if anything history shows they will hurt it.

 

[osujudoman]

Steroids and endurance

Ok, this has been debated on the fighting forums for years now (mostly regarding Vitor in his fight with Couture and Marc Coleman against a few guys). The consensus is that roids CAN help a fighter if he puts on a few pounds of lean mass and lots of strength.

Where guys run into problems is when they concentrate entirely on getting big and strong and believe that their cardio will be just as good as it was at the lighter weight. More muscle requires higher Vo2 max to provide the muscles with oxygen. Steroids do nothing for this since all they do is make the muscle bigger. That means you have to make sure to focus on trainging for endurance in order to supply those bigger muscles with enough oxygen to survive a NHB fight.

Bottom line is this: the only impact juice will have is on your muscles. The bigger the muscle, the more cardio you need to feed it. That said, a fighter should take the time to train specifically for endurance as well as strength. Especially if he's carrying around more muscle than he's accustomed to having.

- Judoman

 

[genarr3]

Re: Steroids and endurance

Ok, this has been debated on the fighting forums for years now (mostly regarding Vitor in his fight with Couture and Marc Coleman against a few guys). The consensus is that roids CAN help a fighter if he puts on a few pounds of lean mass and lots of strength.

Where guys run into problems is when they concentrate entirely on getting big and strong and believe that their cardio will be just as good as it was at the lighter weight. More muscle requires higher Vo2 max to provide the muscles with oxygen. Steroids do nothing for this since all they do is make the muscle bigger. That means you have to make sure to focus on trainging for endurance in order to supply those bigger muscles with enough oxygen to survive a NHB fight.

Bottom line is this: the only impact juice will have is on your muscles. The bigger the muscle, the more cardio you need to feed it. That said, a fighter should take the time to train specifically for endurance as well as strength. Especially if he's carrying around more muscle than he's accustomed to having.

- Judoman

I agree completely. This is one of the more intelligent replies on the subject I've seen. I still think you're far better off juicing in the off season, giving yourself a better understanding of how your body reacts to the additional muscle.

Prepare yourself for at least a dozen "Take fucking halo and check drops like Mike Tyson - you'll be a raging animal!" replies.

 

[hitmansb]

Hey bro, I've been in your shoes before....a couple of years back, I entered a MMA tournament and needed a cycle to put the 'icing on the cake'. Unfortunately, you make it sound as if you are way out of shape, and are going to depend on 6-7 weeks in the gym w/ juice to get you ready. It's not impossible, but you are definately pushing it.

Personally, I started out kinda out of shape (but pretty strong) in April, and worked my ass off from there on out to be ready for a mid-august tourney. I did an eight-week cycle, consisting of 300mg/week EQ right through and Omnadren during the first five weeks. Let me just say this...after three fights in a sweltering hot arena, I was wishing that I was still on the Omnadren and benefitting from water bloat. I weighed in at 218...and left the building at 207. I was cramped so bad that I couldn't even open my hands (stuck into hooks from holding on to Gi's). I think I would have been better off with some extra test in my system at the end.

Just remember this...you will need even more cardio conditioning than you think if you hope to have anything in the second or third fight. Get in a lot of time on the mat, preferably in the hottest, most miserable dojo you can find to prepare; riding the stationary bike in an air conditioned Gold's Gym is not gonna get it done. Best of luck, man.

 

[nhbgorilla]

i fight nhb bro(like u couldnt tell by my name). I dont know about any special "nhb oriented quick fix cycles" or anything, but a few things:
-Winny is not a good compound for everyday submissions training. It makes em crackle already, before someone crackles em more, if u know what Im saying. Heard plenty of folks bitching about this before.

-Halo/Cheque Drops WILL make u aggressive before a fight, however thats exactly what I (personally, many are different) DONT NEED!! MMA is much more of a chess game than boxing/wrestling/etc. by themselves. Granted Ive got a couple good KO's being pissed off, but I usually fight better when Im calm and thinking more than "raging"

-choice of the pros- I will never say any names or anything, etc, so dont ask, but one of the most common things for nhb fighters to do is the old anavar/creatine cycle. Anavar helps out with strength big time, but doesnt give huge LBM gains, perfect for staying in a weight class, and perfect for having "energy packed" muscle(ATP and whatnot). The creatine is also real synergistic with oxandrolone, just cut it about a week before the fight if u have to make weight as creatine will make u retain some water.

-obviously, the leaner you are, the better, so try some nyc/eca alternated with clen if u can. fuck t3, it makes u feel like shit and fight like a pussy. cant have that shit. I guess if u somehow dont feel like shit on it, whatever. dnp on the other hand, at 200mg a day, doesnt affect my training much at all, but obviously do this as long before your fight as possible. cant come into the ring/cage all depleted and shit from dnp.

"Bottom line is this: the only impact juice will have is on your muscles. The bigger the muscle, the more cardio you need to feed it. That said, a fighter should take the time to train specifically for endurance as well as strength. Especially if he's carrying around more muscle than he's accustomed to having."
- Most definitely true, but there are also different "impacts" the juice can have on your muscle as well. Some gear is more "size" promoting, and less strength promoting than others. Id rather put on a real strong, anavar style 5 lbs of muscle, than a puffy, anadrol style, 10lbs of "puff muscle". You wouldnt fight a guy with an extra 5 lbs of potatoes in your pockets would u?? I also think oxandrolone ups the ATP levels in your muscles, which can aid muscular endurance, which is a huge part of mma/nhb.

- if youre trying to lose weight, i dont know about any test in your cycle, EQ would be the best choice, as it also purportedly ups your endurance through some blood platelet mechanism or some shit. coupled with something to offset the EQ appetite that some people get. Id say do 400mg EQ/week, base your workouts/diet/supplements around cutting and endurance, and maybe trade in the sus and winny for some oxandrolone at about 20-30mg/day with some "liver scrubbers"

all the above is not based on science, I may be wrong about some shit and I may offend some anadrol fans, etc. just tryin to help, peace

 

[Saint7]

fina winny combo. Should increase LBM. saint7 PS easy on the fina heard it leaves you winded if you use to much 75mg/ed fina 50mg/ed winny. Remember to use some l-dex and maybe have bromo and vitex on hand incase of any problems. Most important post cycle recovery too.

 

[Charles Ray]

You know I actually have 2 weeks worth of Oxandrolone and I was planning to start two weeks before the tournament then load up on some creatine a few days before. I think I might just add some test anyway. Thanx for the input!


Anyone else?

 

[hitmansb]

Good point on the Winny, nhbgorilla. Winny has always made my muscles prone to cramping as well, so it's a definate no-no for the type of training you're gonna be doing. Also like gorilla's advice about making sure you're not raging in there; an overly aggressive and impatient fighter is gonna end up tapping out more often than not.

 

[genarr3]

i fight nhb bro(like u couldnt tell by my name). I dont know about any special "nhb oriented quick fix cycles" or anything, but a few things:
-Winny is not a good compound for everyday submissions training. It makes em crackle already, before someone crackles em more, if u know what Im saying. Heard plenty of folks bitching about this before.

-Halo/Cheque Drops WILL make u aggressive before a fight, however thats exactly what I (personally, many are different) DONT NEED!! MMA is much more of a chess game than boxing/wrestling/etc. by themselves. Granted Ive got a couple good KO's being pissed off, but I usually fight better when Im calm and thinking more than "raging"

-choice of the pros- I will never say any names or anything, etc, so dont ask, but one of the most common things for nhb fighters to do is the old anavar/creatine cycle. Anavar helps out with strength big time, but doesnt give huge LBM gains, perfect for staying in a weight class, and perfect for having "energy packed" muscle(ATP and whatnot). The creatine is also real synergistic with oxandrolone, just cut it about a week before the fight if u have to make weight as creatine will make u retain some water.

-obviously, the leaner you are, the better, so try some nyc/eca alternated with clen if u can. fuck t3, it makes u feel like shit and fight like a pussy. cant have that shit. I guess if u somehow dont feel like shit on it, whatever. dnp on the other hand, at 200mg a day, doesnt affect my training much at all, but obviously do this as long before your fight as possible. cant come into the ring/cage all depleted and shit from dnp.

"Bottom line is this: the only impact juice will have is on your muscles. The bigger the muscle, the more cardio you need to feed it. That said, a fighter should take the time to train specifically for endurance as well as strength. Especially if he's carrying around more muscle than he's accustomed to having."
- Most definitely true, but there are also different "impacts" the juice can have on your muscle as well. Some gear is more "size" promoting, and less strength promoting than others. Id rather put on a real strong, anavar style 5 lbs of muscle, than a puffy, anadrol style, 10lbs of "puff muscle". You wouldnt fight a guy with an extra 5 lbs of potatoes in your pockets would u?? I also think oxandrolone ups the ATP levels in your muscles, which can aid muscular endurance, which is a huge part of mma/nhb.

- if youre trying to lose weight, i dont know about any test in your cycle, EQ would be the best choice, as it also purportedly ups your endurance through some blood platelet mechanism or some shit. coupled with something to offset the EQ appetite that some people get. Id say do 400mg EQ/week, base your workouts/diet/supplements around cutting and endurance, and maybe trade in the sus and winny for some oxandrolone at about 20-30mg/day with some "liver scrubbers"

all the above is not based on science, I may be wrong about some shit and I may offend some anadrol fans, etc. just tryin to help, peace

Damn! Where did you guys come from? Two intelligent fighting/steroid posts. Typically there are at least a dozen replies from people that have never stepped into a ring giving bad advice focused on which steroids give you the most aggression, not knowing this is not a plus. It might help if you don't have confidence in your skills, but if that's the case you shouldn't be fighting anyway.

 

[osujudoman]

You hit the nail on the head, genarr3. It helps to have fighters for these kinds of questions in order to get some experience- based answers. I train for nhb as well as Judo and JJ. My first pro fight was last Sept on an Extreme Challenge show. I hadn't looked into doing any drugs then... hell, I was more concerned with how I was gonna cut 12lbs the night before I weighed in! lol

I'm with nhbgorilla on his choice of juice, however. If winny is hard on your joints then any joint manipulation is gonna be pretty rough on you. Personally, I can't afford anavar right now so my upcoming cycle (after I shed the weight I want with dnp) is gonna consist of lower doses of fina @75mg EOD, winny at 50mg ED, and running clen and ECA throughout. I want my strength to increase but I'm running it more like a cutting cycle and luckily tren is pretty versatile like that.

One more word of caution to Charles Ray. Even if this isn't your first cycle, be certain not to neglect proper stretching before, during, and after your training sessions. It's easy to forget about being flexible when you're getting so strong. My roommate from last year was training with me for his NHB debut and he suffered for his inflexability. He'd been hitting test and fina hard and had packed on like 20lbs of hard muscle. We were rolling one day and I caught him in a figure-four footlock... his joints and muscles were so tight that instead of getting pressure on his ankle (like it's supposed to be), his ACL tore instead. Before that, he was always really suceptable to keylocks as well because his shoulders weren't flexible at all and were bulky from all the muscle. All it took was a tiny bit of torque and he'd be tapping like crazy. Just something to keep in mind for both your cycle and your trainging.

- Judoman

 

[nhbgorilla]

osujudoman- so youre a buckeye?? i hear u might be able to find Coleman and Randleman around the OSU wrestling rooms sometimes still. true?? I used to be a spartan by the way, so i hate fucking wolverines too.
(thats a big green spartan eating up a wolverine)

 

[omoplata]

Hey bros, I usually post on the pro sports board, hopefully I can add something usefull to this thread.

I am an active nhb fighter, and will be fighting again in a few weeks in Japan. There have been several outstanding posts on this thread that have a ton of great info.

My suggestion would be not to use anything this close to your fight or competition. It is really important to build a solid foundation with your conditioning, both cardio and strength, and that means busting your ass in the gym and at the track. Its so important to push yourself hard on the mat with your grappling and stand-up to get your specific conditioning . No steroid can do that for you.

Having said that, I'll give you my experiences with some of the AS I have used.

Winstrol always worked great for me, but as mentioned before it can cause joint pain. I found that by using OTC joint pain supplements a few weeks before starting them, drinking alot of water, and using EFA's that I am able to minimize the effects.

Fina/tren: We all know that tren can blow you up better than just abou anything, but that can hurt you as a fighter if your trying to make weight. Can also cause cramping.

Sus and test: Great stuff also, but can give you unwanted bloat. You want to be hydrated, but not bloated.

Anavar and creatine: Probably the best combo out there for a fighter trying to make weight. But be careful with the creatine, large doses can cause cramps.

Its best to experiment with AS in an off-season time period where you have no fights for about six months. That way you can accurately gauge their effects on your body and find the most effective ones for you ... don't experiment for a fight.

Sorry for the long post bros, good luck!

 

[me2dammit]

hey

all I know is that the cramps can be killa. I mean sometimes after rollin my forearms hurt so bad I wish I were dead. Water, water and more water.

Also with tren I have found the added strength is helping alot. Positions that might have been trouble before or moves that might have gotten applied before or easier to get out of. I was already strong before but now, dam. Nothing can beat technique, but it seems like most big guys don't have the same technique as the little guys.

Most the time I found the little guys prefer to wait for us bigger guys to gas out, and with tren and the cramps, it is possible. You have to get used to the difference and get the right mindset!!!

Rollin' when on will get you used to some of the barriers you will face(cramp and conditioning wise). You will learn when to conserve and when not to.

I would go with tren,winny or var. You want functional muscle and strength not "bodybuilder type" of growth. You don't want to pump up with 8-12 reps. Stay with 5 reps and tren,winny, or var. Hit the bag constantly, even more than usual so every ounce of your new strength is transfered into your strikes, otherwise you will hit harder, but not like if you concentrated on transfering that power by mastering technique to. If you were already a good striker this could make you a "heavy hitter" quick. Dont just work on full body punches and kicks, work some "just arm punches" for when you are on the ground. Use every bit of your new strength and get used to the new advantages it will give you, but don't forget technique.

 

[anabolicdragon]

Personally

I wouln't do any juice it is going to kill your endurance which IMO is most important in MMA.
If anything just do so Halo at most for the fight.
I have fought in WEF, IFC and smaller shows, plus alot of submission tourny, never juiced while doing it just for the endurance factor. If you juiced you probably already have enough strength you need to work on your wind.
By the way what show it is? I's like to look at the results on adcc.
Again I would stay off until after the show.

 

[genarr3]

Re: Personally

I wouln't do any juice it is going to kill your endurance which IMO is most important in MMA.
If anything just do so Halo at most for the fight.
I have fought in WEF, IFC and smaller shows, plus alot of submission tourny, never juiced while doing it just for the endurance factor. If you juiced you probably already have enough strength you need to work on your wind.
By the way what show it is? I's like to look at the results on adcc.
Again I would stay off until after the show.

I agree. Unless you are a very experienced fighter that's looking to put on some strength in the off season it shouldn't be used. Stamina is far more important then strength, and you run a risk of hurting that if you don't know what you're doing.

 

[anabolicdragon]

In Addition

Your are much more injury prone while cycling than not. I don't care what people say that is true. Things that would only hurt before have better chances of injuring you while on.
Like genarr3 said Enudrance is much more important, work on increasing your strength between fights.

 

[osujudoman]

Coleman & Randleman are still around

NHBGorilla,

Marc and Kevin still show up around the wrestling room every now and then. They used to train here all the time but now they have a deal going with a local jiu-jitsu guy where he'll let them use his school so long as he can use their names for publicity and he gets a cut of their 'classes'.

I actually think Kevin was helping with a big wrestling camp here last week. I've been injured so I didn't get the chance to check it out but I saw all the highschool wrestlers walking in and out of the rec center where the wrestling room is.

 

[Charles Ray]

thanx for all the replies guys...

though you guys tell me not to ....i might do low doses of test to keep my energy levels up and to keep some muscle...i lose muscle and strength very easily when I train because I am naturally thin. Then I'll take the anavar 2 weeks before and creatine 2 daysbefore the tournament.


I'll keep you guys posted on how it goes. Thanx again guys!

 

[scrappy]

Hey Guys,
Just wanted to put in my 2 cents.
I've tried a lot of combos and doses for MMA fighters going into the ring. What I've seen is EQ and Anavar allows the athlete to stay strong and maintain a good fight pace. I've seen 5 weeks out:
Wk1 EQ 250mg Ana 15-20mg/day
Wk2 EQ 200mg Ana 15-20mg/day
Wk3 EQ 150mg Ana 15-20mg/day
Wk4 EQ 150mg Ana 15-20mg/day
Fight Week EQ 150mg Ana 15-20mg/day

This was for a fighter at 185 who could gain only minimal weight as he was at his limit. He also had tried other combinations which left him gassed in the ring. He and others felt these low doses allowed them to be 5-10 lbs over the weight limit and cut down just for the weigh in but still retain stamina and strength.
Sometimes EQ and Halotestin depending on the fighter. I think there may be something to the EQ endurance thing. I do not think the other steroid is an issue. I honestly think it is a dose issue. 15 mg/day of D or drol would probably be okay but these guys wanted Anavar because of its reputation with athletes.
I would like to see the effect of 15mg/drol/day with the EQ as I believe it can help hemoglobin levels.
Remember, know your events time limits. UFC: 3, 5 minute rounds or 5, 5minute rounds for a title. You have to prepare for your event's specific time requirement. I know the doses are low but keep the goal in mind and you can always experiment and go up. Personally, in the choice between cleaning 30 pounds more than your opponent and finishing the round strong, I'd finigh the round strong.

As a side note if a fighter or any athlete has a lot of time and wants size/strength at the expense of some endurance then a standard 1g/week cycle with test or tren/winny or whatever is okay. However, endurance will suffer a little and this should only be done when there is ample time to regain some cardio. I would NOT do this type of cycle near a competition.