GH and The Athlete - is there a point to it???

[needsize]

I've been on gh since the beginning of oct, and have definitely come to the opinion its a synergistic thing, same as with anything else; it works better in conjunction with other things like AAS. Last year I really plateaued and couldnt add any more size, no matter how heavy my cycles were. This year i added gh, and insulin off and on, and have added at least another 15lbs to my frame. On an annecdotal level, I get tons of comments about how much my physique has changed all over.
Its hard to tell if the extra mass comes from the syngergistic effects of everything i am running, or it could simply be that the gh allows me to eat hyper amounts of very high calorie and high fat foods, along with the insulin, but keep bodyfat gains to a minimum

 

[Whiskey]

Very good article that you found JA. I have read this all twice now and it is starting to sink in a little deeper.
I don't have any experience on this subject, but I was wondering if insulin, when used with GH would provide "near same" results as "GH and AAS," but not with insulin?

Also, would the frequency of insulin use differ when using it with GH. I once read that you should use it at X and X times, but I don't know if that was for bodybuilding purposes or not.

Once again, I don't have any experience with GH or insulin but have thought about it and doubt I will anytime soon, so if these are dumb questions I appologize ahead of time ;-)

Whiskey

 

[Juice Authority]

Very good article that you found JA. I have read this all twice now and it is starting to sink in a little deeper.
I don't have any experience on this subject, but I was wondering if insulin, when used with GH would provide "near same" results as "GH and AAS," but not with insulin?

Also, would the frequency of insulin use differ when using it with GH. I once read that you should use it at X and X times, but I don't know if that was for bodybuilding purposes or not.

Once again, I don't have any experience with GH or insulin but have thought about it and doubt I will anytime soon, so if these are dumb questions I appologize ahead of time ;-)

Whiskey

From what I understand from ironmaster and others, exogenous GH alone suppresses insulin sensitivity to the extent that the use of exogenous insulin is almost essential if your goal is to get bigger AND leaner at the same time. This is evidently due to the insulin like action of IGF-1 in skeletal muscle. Insulin seems to be one of, if not the most anabolic hormones in the body. By blunting its action, GH impairs the anabolic effect of insulin.

This study highlights the effect "normal" dosing of GH has on insulin sensitivity however low doses of GH don't seem to effect IGFBP-1 levels that much. Maybe the idea of taken 2IU's/ed holds merit.

1: J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2002 May;87(5):1989-95. Related Articles, Links


The effects of short-term administration of two low doses versus the standard GH replacement dose on insulin sensitivity and fasting glucose levels in young healthy adults.

Yuen K, Ong K, Husbands S, Chatelain P, Fryklund L, Gluckman P, Ranke M, Cook D, Rosenfeld R, Wass J, Dunger D.

University Department of Pediatrics, Addenbrooke's Hospital, Cambridge CB2 2QQ, United Kingdom.

GH has both diabetogenic and insulin-like actions. Supraphysiological GH doses are known to reduce insulin sensitivity (S(I)), but lower doses are less well studied. We therefore compared the effects of two physiological GH doses (intermediate, 0.0033 mg/kg x d; low, 0.0017 mg/kg x d) with the standard adult GH deficiency replacement dose (standard, 0.008 mg/kg x d) on S(I), beta-cell function, IGF-I, and IGF binding proteins (IGFBPs)-1 and -3 in healthy adults. Eleven healthy nonobese volunteers (4 males and 7 females, aged 21-38 yr) received 7 daily injections of the standard and intermediate GH doses, and 10 (5 males and 5 females, aged 21-38 yr) received the low dose. Fasting blood samples were collected daily (days 1-8). S(I) and beta-cell function were calculated using the Homeostasis model assessment. All GH doses increased IGF-I and IGFBP-3 levels, with the standard dose inducing the greatest rise (P < 0.001). At day 2 vs. baseline, all three doses increased the IGF-I/IGFBP-3 ratio, but only the standard dose lowered IGFBP-1 levels (P = 0.03). The standard dose reduced S(I) (P = 0.01), whereas the intermediate dose increased S(I) (P < 0.005) and lowered fasting insulin levels (P < 0.01). The low dose did not modify S(I), but reduced fasting glucose levels (P < 0.0001) and increased beta-cell function (P = 0.001). Males demonstrated higher IGF-I and IGFBP-3 responsiveness to the standard dose than females. Males also showed greater increase in S(I) and decrease in fasting glucose levels on both intermediate and low doses. In conclusion, the metabolic effects of GH are dose- and gender-dependent. The standard adult GH deficiency replacement dose induced insulin resistance, whereas lower doses improved S(I), especially in males. The low GH dose lowered fasting glucose levels and could represent the optimal dose to stimulate beta-cell function without compromising S(I) in insulin-resistant GH-deficient adults.

PMID: 11994330 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[majutsu]

Great thread BTW JA well done. I'd k ya, but have done it too recently.

 

[DrJMW]

And here is the dilemma that I have been facing: HGH-induced insulin resistance. This is why HGH alone is a lousy "muscle builder" compared to AAS. As it has been stated, we need insulin to get carbs into the muscle tissue for OPTIMAL growth. Adding more insulin doesn't necessarily improve insulin sensitivity..many deaths are the proof. I have tried using metformin and avandia to overcome HGH-induced insulin resistance. Users of Avandia actually gained fat, while users of metformin either had no effect or their test levels dropped and their appetites were diminished. I can see the Ronnie Coleman's of the world using insulin, for their pancreases cannot secrete enough insulin to cover their muscle mass..but I don't see improvement of insulin resistance.

When I have athletes changes their diets to include only clean carbs (green veggies, oatmeal, rice, beans), they did not show signs of insulin resistance--most notable fat gain. Another point for HGH being a good fat burner. While glucose is the optimal fuel, the body can also use free fatty acids and ketone bodies for fuel as well. HGH's fat burning properties include "converting" the body from a glucose/glycogen system to a free fatty acid/ketone body system. This is simplied, but true.

 

[Ulter]

drjmw, AAS causes insulin resistance just as quickly as GH does. And since the vast majority of the American population is insulin resistant anyways, particularly those who might look to GH for fat loss, you may be fighting a losing battle. Diet changes can help some people but since the reason people become insulin resistant is still unknown you may be better off treating the symptoms. Glucorell R is our answer to it.

 

[Juice Authority]

And here is the dilemma that I have been facing: HGH-induced insulin resistance. This is why HGH alone is a lousy "muscle builder" compared to AAS. As it has been stated, we need insulin to get carbs into the muscle tissue for OPTIMAL growth. Adding more insulin doesn't necessarily improve insulin sensitivity..many deaths are the proof. I have tried using metformin and avandia to overcome HGH-induced insulin resistance. Users of Avandia actually gained fat, while users of metformin either had no effect or their test levels dropped and their appetites were diminished. I can see the Ronnie Coleman's of the world using insulin, for their pancreases cannot secrete enough insulin to cover their muscle mass..but I don't see improvement of insulin resistance.

When I have athletes changes their diets to include only clean carbs (green veggies, oatmeal, rice, beans), they did not show signs of insulin resistance--most notable fat gain. Another point for HGH being a good fat burner. While glucose is the optimal fuel, the body can also use free fatty acids and ketone bodies for fuel as well. HGH's fat burning properties include "converting" the body from a glucose/glycogen system to a free fatty acid/ketone body system. This is simplied, but true.

Besides changing one's diet, which has been shown to not be that effective in combatting insulin resistance, what are some other proven methods/drugs to use to overcome insulin resistance? I would have thought exogenous insulin would help. I think we all agree that GH suppresses insulin sensitivity. I guess I had to wrong understanding of exogenous insulin's role with GH.

 

[KA-BAR]

ok, I have read all pro's and cons on this stuff for 2 years and said the hell with it I am just going to try it out for myself. I did not do it the way you where supposed to. I started to take it in the middle of a 12 week cycle @ 2 iu ED. I finished my cycle Feb 29 and All i can say is WOW! I can definitly tell even at the low doseage. It has helped me keep all my gains and I am actually stronger on a few lifts. I cant expalin it. I have plenty of jin and plan on staying on it untill the end of summer. I start another cycle may1 and this time i plan on useing t3 and slin along with prop, eq and winny. I cant wait to see what happens. I dont care what all these studies say the shit works for me.

 

[DrJMW]

Ulter makes some good comments. It isn't necessarily true that AAS causes insulin resistance. I have seen improvement in glucose utilization in clients using moderate dosing of AAS (400-600mg weekly total AAS). I have also seen improvement in lipid profiles. On the other hand, I have seen poor glucose utilization and poor lipid profiles with excessive dosing. I still think that diet (partition of protein, carbs, fat) is important. Lastly, if Glucorell R actually improves HGH-induced insulin resistance, then this compound may be the answer. I haven't found any meds that will do it. The easiest way to check the effectiveness of Glucorell R with HGH is to watch for fat gain and increased blood glucose levels.

JA--increasing insulin does not improve insulin resistance--just makes it worse. My previous point about using exogenous insulin again: If you have a 300lb BB with 5% BF, his pancreas is not able to secrete enough insulin to shuttle his carb intake to his musculature. The pancreas is only able to secrete so much insulin. On a relative basis, this athlete appears to suffer from hypoinsulinism. This athlete's problem is not insulin resistance; it is a lack of insulin

 

[BLACKDOOG]

Why can't you Elite Members just discuss these issues in Layman Terms. Most of You are talking as If your Bio Chemist from Harvard or something. Just get to the point of what your trying to say. Most of us do not care about all the complex wording and terminology and your probably just copying it out of a damn book or magazine any way. Post info we can interpret with out a science manual.