Front-end loading revisited...

[Andy13]

I don't think taking dbol in the beginning of a cycle is nearly as effective as font end loading injectables..

Here's why. Dbol is a poor AR agonist. It's primary mode of action is unknown... Everyone agrees that a "dbol only" cycle is near worthless, right? That's because the 'unknown' muscle building affects of dbol allegedly occur outside the AR and are supposedly "synergystic" with strong AR binders. So using dbol early in the cycle until injectables are built up to maximal theraputic blood concentration is a lot like doing a dbol only cycle for the first few weeks. So, in all actuality, the dbol is not really "kick starting" your cycle. To really kick start your cycle, you need to load your injectables.

My original thoughts on front-end loading of injectables still stand, and IMO this is far superior than dbol early. But for those who love dbol, I suggest getting some armidex and front-end loading injectables as well as taking your dbol in the beginning of the cycle.

Andy

 

[MUSTANG_18]

Very good post bro.... I did front loading this cycle and will do it every cycle from now on

M18

 

[thegame65_ve]

I understand what you're saying Andy and I do agree that d-bol's effects are via a non AR mechanism (I think Bill Roberts theorized that d-bol was activated in the skin and scalp hence acne and hairloss) but I am not sure that I would call a d-bol only cycle worthless. I think that its simply a matter of an individual's response to the drug. I gained 32lbs. total on my first two cycles which were d-bol only. I did 20mg/ED for 6 weeks. I kept all but 3 lbs. But I do agree that stacking d-bol with an AS that binds well to the AR receptor (such as Deca Durabolin) and front loading such will help to maximize gains. Also, I read somewhere that testosterone does not bind that well to the AR receptor and actually imparts some of its effects through non-AR binding routes.What do you think?

 

[apbt549]

what is front loading .

 

[Andy13]

. Also, I read somewhere that testosterone does not bind that well to the AR receptor and actually imparts some of its effects through non-AR binding routes.What do you think?

This is true.. Keep in mind though that "non-AR mediated anabolism" from AAS does not exist as far documentation in research is concerned.

This does not mean it does not exist.. Just that it has never been proven. There are some studies that indicate that some androgens such as anadrol that have poor affinity for the AR are able to elict some sexual differentiation whereas some potent AR agonists fail.

It is my opinion that "non-AR anabolism" from AAS very, very small compared with anabolism that occurs through the AR.

Keep in mind that the "anabolism effects" from AR activation is not the same as alleged "non-AR effects" meaning, the proteins translated as a result of AR activation are not the same proteins that might result from non-AR anabolism. This is the precise reason why front-end loading with injectables starts the engine of well documented anabolism where as dbol does not start this same engine since modes of action are allegedly different.

Andy

 

[basskiller]

what is front loading .

Taking 2x or even 3x the normal dose your going to be taking throughout your cycle

 

[panerai]

Anabolic steroids--action on cellular level.

Wien Med Wochenschr 1993;143(14-15):363-6 (ISSN: 0043-5341)

Bartsch W [Find other articles with this Author]
Fraunhofer Institute of Toxicology and Aerosol-Research, Hannover, Germany.

Although the nature of actions of anabolic steroids is principally that of androgens, it still remains difficult to relate the effects observed to specific cellular processes and to describe them clearly as related to specific mechanisms of action. The dissociation between "anabolic" and "androgenic" actions of a steroid can in part be explained by organ specific patterns of steroid-metabolizing enzymes, which lead to the formation of more or less active compounds in different organs. Some actions of anabolic steroids, particularly that in skeletal muscle are obviously also mediated by interaction of the parent compound or a metabolite with receptors of other steroid classes than androgens, e.g. that of glucocorticoids and/or estrogens

 

[panerai]

Evidence for sex-dependent anabolic response to androgenic steroids mediated by muscle glucocorticoid receptors in the rat.

J Steroid Biochem 1988 Jun;29(6):575-81 (ISSN: 0022-4731)

Danhaive PA; Rousseau GG [Find other articles with these Authors]
Faculte de Medecine Veterinaire, Universite de Liege, Belgium.

The muscle anabolic/anti-catabolic activity of the androgenic steroids testosterone and trenbolone was studied in rats to investigate whether such steroids act as agonists via muscle androgen receptors, or as antagonists that oppose the catabolic effects of endogenous glucocorticoids via their interaction with muscle glucocorticoid receptors. For comparison, the effects of the potent glucocorticoid antagonist RU486 were also examined. The parameters measured included growth rate, muscle weight, serum growth hormone and corticosterone levels, and receptor binding parameters in muscle cytosol. Females responded better than males to anabolic treatment with the androgenic steroids. Ovariectomy or adrenalectomy abolished this response. Neither the sex difference nor the requirement for ovaries or adrenals could be explained in terms of muscle receptor parameters or serum growth hormone levels. The muscle anabolic activity of androgenic steroids was restored when castrated males were treated with oestradiol and when adrenalectomized females were treated with corticosterone. RU486 also prevented the catabolic/anti-anabolic activity of exogenous corticosterone in adrenalectomized rats. Testosterone and RU486 behaved as anti-glucocorticoids in vivo since they inhibited glucocorticoid-induced liver tyrosine aminotransferase activity. The results suggest that anabolic steroids can act via muscle glucocorticoid receptors, thereby antagonizing the catabolic activity of endogenous glucocorticoids, rather than via muscle androgen receptors.

 

[panerai]

Pharmacological action of anabolic steroids]

Nippon Rinsho 1994 Mar;52(3):606-10 (ISSN: 0047-1852)

Takada M [Find other articles with this Author]
Faculty of Pharmaceutical Sciences (Pharmaceutics), Higashi-Nippon-Gakuen University.

Anabolic steroids (AS) are derivatives of androgen (testosterone and its close relatives). AS have been primarily developed for clinical use as anabolic agents with the expectation that they would be relatively less androgenic than testosterone and its close relatives. Various AS are applied to clinical use, but none is free from androgenic activity. Relation between chemical structure and anabolic-androgenic potency of various AS is summarized. AS action in erythropoiesis operates through increased porphyrin formation and production of erythropoietin. Mechanism of AS action in bone formation is suggested that AS potentiate intestinal 1.25(OH)2D receptors. Identification of androgen receptors in normal human osteoblast-like cells suggest that AS act directly on receptor-mediated mechanism.(not nessecery AR - Panerai) The other action of AS is briefly summarized. (Don't want to pay for the whole article, but if anyone wants to know about "other action" it is available on Medscape-Panerai)

 

[Rhinoceros]

So if your cycle is 500 mg. test and 400 mg. deca per week, you would take between 1,000 - 1,500 mg. test and 800 - 1,200 mg. deca per week to front load, right? How long would the front load period last, just the first week, or longer than that?

Rhino

 

[The Iron Game]

Those doing their first few cycles do not need to front load. It is very good on paper but it must also be realised that side effects come much faster, quicker and harder with front loading. Test sides can mainly be controlled and is probably the safest aas at such doses. I dont think even anavar can be taken at 1500mgs/wk with very little sides let alone 2000-3000mgs. I can not imagine someone front loading with deca and after my experience eq is not so easy either but it may be that im just sensitive.

Peace

 

[basskiller]

So if your cycle is 500 mg. test and 400 mg. deca per week, you would take between 1,000 - 1,500 mg. test and 800 - 1,200 mg. deca per week to front load, right? How long would the front load period last, just the first week, or longer than that?

Rhino

Rhino, here is the thread all about front loading...

http://209.11.101.244/forum/showthread.php?threadid=42630&highlight=front+loading

I did it just the first week... but my next cyc. I'm going for 2 wks.

as for the rest ...your are correct

 

[panerai]

I have to agree, frontloading applies mainly to Testosteron, it's kind of risky with Deca, and doesn't make sense with orals or fast acting steroids. Besides Test, EQ is a very good candidate for frontloading, what else?....I don't know.
Back to non AR mediated action of AS, one more study:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Glucocorticoid-mediated induction of glutamine synthetase in skeletal muscle.

Med Sci Sports Exerc 1990 Jun;22(3):325-30 (ISSN: 0195-9131)

Max SR [Find other articles with this Author]
Department of Neurology, University of Maryland School of Medicine, Baltimore 21201.

We studied the effect of glucocorticoids on glutamine synthetase in rat skeletal muscle in culture and in vivo. Dexamethasone, a synthetic glucocorticoid, caused striking, receptor-mediated increases in both glutamine synthetase activity and the steady-state glutamine synthetase mRNA level. This effect was observed in rat skeletal muscle cells in culture, as well as in rat muscles in vivo. Glucocorticoid-mediated induction of glutamine synthetase was blocked by androgenic/anabolic steroids at high doses, suggesting that anabolic steroids might have an anticatabolic mode of action in enhancing skeletal muscle mass in athletes. Further studies of the control of glutamine synthetase expression may shed light on mechanisms of muscle atrophy and hypertrophy.

 

[panerai]

Biochemistry and physiology of anabolic hormones used for improvement of meat production [In Process Citation]

APMIS Suppl 2001;(103):S336-43; discussion S344 (ISSN: 0903-465X)

Meyer HH [Find other articles with this Author]
Institute of Physiology, Technical University Munich, Weihenstephaner Berg 3, D-85350 Freising-Weihenstephan, Germany. [email protected].

A number of hormones are involved in endocrine regulation of growth. In general, these hormones enhance body protein accretion and metabolise fat stores resulting in increased lean growth rates. Most practical importance was obtained by sex hormones (oestrogens and androgens), beta-agonists and growth hormone--whether legally or illegally. Efficiency of growth promotion ranges between 0% and +20% depending on the prerequisites such as species, breed, gender, age, reproductive status, body score or feeding of the animals. Oestrogens and androgens mediate their activity via intracellular receptors--directly in muscular tissue as well as indirectly via stimulation of growth hormone from the hypophysis and other growth factors from liver plus several further organs. In addition, mineral absorption in the gut is improved. The outstanding efficiency of trenbolone is based on its androgenic plus antiglucocorticoid activity. Melengestrolacetate is thought to act indirectly via stimulation of endogenous ovarian oestradiol in non-pregnant heifers. The necessary dosages and residue formations depend on the pharmacokinetic parameters of each substance and extrapolations between compounds are hardly possible. Growth hormone and beta 2-agonists use independent pathways for growth promotion not related to steroid biochemistry.

 

[Andy13]

Panerai- The article about increased GH output from androgens in the liver is also AR mediated.. It just says that androgens are able to elict anabolism not only directly on muscle cells, but indirectly through the liver as well.

Thanks for posting those articles! However, this doesn't prove non-AR anabolism from AAS exists.. Just that androgens can be anti-catabolic by binding glucocorticoid receptors. "Anti-catabolic" does not mean "anabolic." Bill Roberts himself, who believes non-AR anabolism from AAS exists, could not point me to a study that proved such. He just assumes it exists b/c androgens that have poor AR affinity are sometimes more potent than higher AR affinity androgens-- example, primobolan has a higher affinity for the AR than does testosterone.

Andy

 

[Andy13]

Those doing their first few cycles do not need to front load. It is very good on paper but it must also be realised that side effects come much faster, quicker and harder with front loading. Test sides can mainly be controlled and is probably the safest aas at such doses. I can not imagine someone front loading with deca and after my experience eq is not so easy either but it may be that im just sensitive.

Peace

This is true-- but you have to realize that if someone has already done a deca cycle at 500mg/week, loading causes no higher blood androgen concentrations than what are seen by week 5 or so if a straight 500mg/week. Loading just enables the person to be at the max theraputic level immediately. If loading is done correctly, blood concentrations after the load should be no higher than mid-cycle concentrations.

Andy

 

[Andy13]

"Loading" is very analagous to using, say, nandrolone phenylpropionate to jump start a nandrolone deconate cycle..



In the event that the person does not have nandrolone phenylpropionate to jump start his deca cycle, loading with deca accomplishes essentially the same thing.


Andy

 

[The Iron Game]

This is true-- but you have to realize that if someone has already done a deca cycle at 500mg/week, loading causes no higher blood androgen concentrations than what are seen by week 5 or so if a straight 500mg/week. Loading just enables the person to be at the max theraputic level immediately. If loading is done correctly, blood concentrations after the load should be no higher than mid-cycle concentrations.

Andy

This is true, but the real question is can your body handle the surge within a relatively short period of time.

I did 1200mgs of eq over 2 days and I have never felt so bad on aas before in my life. I recommend to front load but over the week rather than a massive surge in one or two doses.

I have seen many guys lately injecting 1250mgs - 1500mgs of test on their first or second cycle. I used to think more is better but this is taking it out of proportion. Test is perhaps a bad example because I think the only positive thing that you can front load with is test in such high doses. I know primo at high doses can cause some problems and as can deca. I have yet to hear this about eq but I will be sure to find out

Peace

 

[Andy13]

This is true, but the real question is can your body handle the surge within a relatively short period of time.

I did 1200mgs of eq over 2 days and I have never felt so bad on aas before in my life. I recommend to front load but over the week rather than a massive surge in one or two doses.

I have seen many guys lately injecting 1250mgs - 1500mgs of test on their first or second cycle. I used to think more is better but this is taking it out of proportion. Test is perhaps a bad example because I think the only positive thing that you can front load with is test in such high doses. I know primo at high doses can cause some problems and as can deca. I have yet to hear this about eq but I will be sure to find out

Peace

I've been away from the board for a while.. So you had a bad expirience loading eq? That's too bad.. Sorry to hear that. What's the most eq you have used before in a cycle?

Andy

 

[The Iron Game]

cheers ears

http://209.11.101.244/forum/showthread.php?threadid=46805

In all honesty I can say I properly ran 800mgs for sufficient time to call it a cycle.

I must say in my opinion this can work with test very well if done correctly, it is something that is very natural in the body. But perhaps there is a purpose in tapering. Maybe to give our bodies time to adjust to the changes we are putting upon it.

Peace

 

[panerai]

I believe, anti-catabolic may not mean "anabolic" strictly as you would take it from dictionary, but for bodybuilders, and especially ones who trains very hard and heavy it does.
That's one of the big differences that steroids make for users, comparing to natural athletes. After hard workout, person puts himself into catabolic state, and has to rely on natural ability to restore positive netrogen balance and progress, wich is very hard, especially for older guys(after 21-24y.o.), for steroid users it is, actually opposite, the more, supposedly catabolic they get, the better results are, because of presence of AS, they have suppressed glucocorticoid activity, meaning growth can occure immediatly.
Also, estrogen and progesteron receptors play large role in muscle atrophy, especially with Deca and Tren. Besides Deca and Tren, aromatisation itself was shown being important, to certain degree.
What about CNS stimulation? Is it mediated through AR also? I don't think so.
Who's Bill Roberts, BTW? Another Julia Roberts brother?

Iron Game, you can't possibly blame EQ, on how you felt. It has very long ester, you know that, and simply because you injected 1200mg over two days don't mean nothing, some guys inject that much or almost as much of Test on regular basis. It was just your personal bad experience with bad food, or bacteria or stomach problem or who knows what...

 

[Audio8]

i'll bump up this thread..good info..

and by the way, i've heard from a few people that frontloading EQ at more than 1g/week can get pretty rough...at that high of doses, sides of extreme anxiety, increased heart rate, and increased BP become very aparent. I haven't frontloaded EQ yet, but I will certainly keep it under 1g based on the experiences others have had with it.

 

[Andy13]

i'll bump up this thread..good info..

and by the way, i've heard from a few people that frontloading EQ at more than 1g/week can get pretty rough...at that high of doses, sides of extreme anxiety, increased heart rate, and increased BP become very aparent. I haven't frontloaded EQ yet, but I will certainly keep it under 1g based on the experiences others have had with it.

I'll have to say that the sides have more to do with the additives in the injectible formula than the steroid itself...

Many have taken an insane amount of orals without such problems..

Andy

 

[Audio8]

what sort of additives are we talking about?

 

[NFG123]

Panerai- The article about increased GH output from androgens in the liver is also AR mediated.. It just says that androgens are able to elict anabolism not only directly on muscle cells, but indirectly through the liver as well.

Thanks for posting those articles! However, this doesn't prove non-AR anabolism from AAS exists.. Just that androgens can be anti-catabolic by binding glucocorticoid receptors. "Anti-catabolic" does not mean "anabolic." Bill Roberts himself, who believes non-AR anabolism from AAS exists, could not point me to a study that proved such. He just assumes it exists b/c androgens that have poor AR affinity are sometimes more potent than higher AR affinity androgens-- example, primobolan has a higher affinity for the AR than does testosterone.

Andy

Ok, I disagree with this. The study stated says that AAS can and do contribute to anti-catabolic effects. ANABOLISM as measured by bodybuilders is not really anabolism but the NET difference between muscle building and muscle wasting. Growth can be accomplished, which is all ANABOLIC by two ways.

1) Increase muscle building
2) Decrease muscle wasting

Both are ANABOLIC, and this paper DOES give preliminary evidence of the existence of non-AR mediated ANABOLIC functions.

-------------

Secondly, I don't doubt that frontloading increases the efficacy of the cycle. Hell, 1 g of test a week is better than 500 mg test a week for growth, no one disputes that. But the function of frontloading is only to increase the amount of test you use, therefore you will get better results in the long run, and probably at first since more is being released (more initial amount.) IMHO this is all frontloading does ...

ADDING Dbol, however since it has been SHOWN in vitro to have poor AR binding, perhaps a metabolite of it binds to the AR, but this is unlikely since it is oxidized in the liver for a "second pass" metabolism ... probably occurs via NON AR mechanisms, if T added occurs via AR mechanism, stacking them makes sense!

Now most people using Sustanon or Deca have to wait for four weeks until they notice huge gains ... why? Blood levels? Maybe ... even probably.

So at some point these atheletes achieve what I will call "critical mass." They achieve a high enough serum steroid concentration to elicit an anabolic response. Now the first four weeks you must understand the esters are STILL BEING RELEASED.

What does adding DBOL do? Well, since a DBOL ONLY cycle is "worthless" -- why dont we ask Mike Mentzer and Arnold how stupid they were for ever THINKING about doing that-and look where they got ...

Dbol with the serum nandrolone or testosterone seems to achieve critical mass EARLIER. Relating it akin to a DBOL only cycle for the first four weeks is simply a poor analogy. There are steroids in the serum from your other drugs at that TIME! Dbol may help them achieve critical mass earlier by ANOTHER mechanism ... preventing catabolism? im not sure, but if a catabolicf response is a BOTTLE NECK preventing T or Deca from eliciting and ANABOLIC response (muscle building/wasting again) then adding dbol is SYNERGISTIC and will allow a T or Deca ellicited response EARLIER and is NOTHING like a "dbol only cycle"

Now im willing to bet that many people have experienced this for themselves and maybe it makes sense now ... maybe this isnt the case, but this is just my .02.

NFG

 

[NFG123]

bump

 

[Audio8]

interesting point NFG...so what is anti-catabolic is thus pro-anabolic?

 

[NFG123]

Essentially yes.

This is a point that Bill Roberts echoes. Here is the link. Read the article, its a ways down but details it well.

http://www.meso-rx.com/articles/pharmacology/androgen-receptor-regulation.htm

Muscle building, or what we define as ANABOLISM is measured as the NET gain in muscle. This can be net muscle gain in negative or positive (negative = muscle lost).

While there are mechanisms BUILDING muscle, there are simultaneously mechanisms BREAKING DOWN muscle. This can be seen in two ways.

When you workout, muscle breakdown is higher than muscle building, and this only switches, and becomes a net positive usually after 24 hours ... so it turns from CATABOLIC to ANABOLIC, but is really only a balance of the two.

You can also look at it like sugar crystals, for anyone who remembers chemistry, when you make sugar crystals, and they looks stagnate (not forming) they are still being formed yet broken down at equal rates, and so the NET gain = 0.

Consequently if you ACCELERATE muscle building or DECELERATE muscle wasting, the net gain is GROWTH. One way AAS exert their effects, according to Bill Roberts and the posted studies is through an anti catabolic effect!

Hope that helps to clarify ...

NFG

 

[Audio8]

right on...good info guys...

 

[NFG123]

bump!

 

[solidspine]

Andy you are as usual technically correct,

But D-BOL does give a nice psychological boost to your cycle in the first 2-4 weeks,

at least if that d-bol comes from Russia.