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Fina - ed VS eod - the numbers

Zyglamail

Zyglamail

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Ok, I had a little time so I ran some numbers (thanks to andy for the formula). We know that pure tren has a half life of approx 24 hours and the acetate ester further delays release by another 48 so for the math I used a half life of 72 hours.

The graphs show a short 20 day cycle(just for purposes of creating a graph, I wouldnt do fina less than 6 weeks myself).

75mg ed injection:

fina75ed.jpg


150mg eod injection:
fina150eod.jpg
 
So roughly the same overall level, just slightly more constant dose by about 50mg EOD. Looks like ED is the way to go, but EOD still works well. Is that about right. I'm only a computer nerd, not a mathster.
 
Peak blood levels only vary slightly, but from the charts, one would surmize that the additional benefits of the ED injection many report are likely due to the smoother more constant blood levels.
 
Zyglamail said:
Ok, I had a little time so I ran some numbers (thanks to andy for the formula). We know that pure tren has a half life of approx 24 hours and the acetate ester further delays release by another 48 so for the math I used a half life of 72 hours.

The graphs show a short 20 day cycle(just for purposes of creating a graph, I wouldnt do fina less than 6 weeks myself).

75mg ed injection:

fina75ed.jpg


150mg eod injection:
fina150eod.jpg
Click to expand...

Nice job bro. Ya beat me to it...
 
Hey Zyg,

Thats a big difference in blood concentration consistency. I was wondering if u could run the numbers for twice a day injections, as I have heard they are even more effective.
 
Good stuff.
What should be noted is that the first chart is 75 ED and the second is 150 EOD. At a quick glance you would think the second one is 75EOD. So its better to do ED, but if you choose EOD better increase the dosage.

bbd.
 
Yes, BigBootyDaddy, thats correct. I wanted to basically show what difference the ed VS eod injections made comparing the same amount of product. EOD = 150mg and ED = 75mg day x 2 days equals the same dose of 150mg over a 2 day period.

In addition, here is a chart showing 37.5mg, 2x a day, 12 hour intervals.

fina37twiceday.jpg


The 2x day injections peak a tad higher and rise a tad slower than ED injections. 2x day may offer a slight advantage, but at the same time I think the scare tissue form 2x day injections is not worth it.
 
Thanks for your effort Zyglamail!!!!! Great post!!! Im going to try the ed series once I get 25g needles. I can't wait to test the difference real world...
 
BUMPO! **shameless plug**
 
Some great info on this board (as usual)...

just curious...why is the 75 mg ED injection a smooth disbursement of the chemical, while the 150 mg EOD is staggered?
 
Trenbolone acetate has a pretty short half life, only 3 days, which means that after an initial inj, 3 days later you have half of that amount left in you. When you inject, blood levels fall rapidly, then spike again after next injection. With an ed injection you get another administration of the drug before the previous administration drops too far. Therefor you get a smoother increase without the drops.

Keep in mind, the timeline on the above graphs is days. If I were to calculate blood levels on an hourly basis and plot 24 hours in a day for 20 days, the ed injection would also show peaks and valleys which are not seen only plotting blood levels daily. These peaks and valleys of course would still be much much smaller that the eod injections though.
 
Bump for the night crew. :)
 
Zyglamail.......you rock bro.......taking a scientific approach to it. Thanks.
 
Im currently planning on setting up a site that will get all the required info, allow for front loading, multiple AAS etc and plot various colored lines for the AS in a given cycle. Im just not sure if I should have the ouput to pdf or just use a jpg though. I will have to toss around my scripting options.
 
Keep use posted on your web site. It sounds like a great tool for us to use.
 
The work is well done but i think you've highly over estimated teh half life of tren it is no where near 72 hours.
 
E2, please elaborate. Just so you know why I calim 72 hours, here is a report shoing pure tren(no ester) and then my research indicated that the acetate ester further delays release by approx 48 hours.

Disposition of 17 beta-trenbolone in humans.

Spranger B, Metzler M.

Department of Food Chemistry and Environmental Toxicology, University of Kaiserslautern, Germany.

The urinary excretion and metabolic pattern of 17 beta-trenbolone, a synthetic anabolic @#%$ hormone used as a growth promotor for beef cattle in several countries, has been studied in a human subject. For the separation of the metabolites of 17 beta-trenbolone, a
reversed-phase high-performance liquid chromatographic method was established. The method was tested with metabolites obtained from incubation of 17 beta-trenbolone with rat liver microsomes. Fifteen metabolites could be well separated in one run by using a concave acetonitrile-water-methanol gradient. After ingestion of the tracer-labelled hormone at a dose of 0.04 mg/kg body weight 54% of the administered radioactivity was found in the urine after 26 h and 63% after 72 h. Of the urinary material 54% was present as glucuronides, which contained mostly 17 alpha-trenbolone, 17 beta-trenbolone and trendione. At least five other polar metabolites, presumably hydroxylated products, were found in smaller amounts, mostly in the unconjugated and sulphated fractions. Thus, the disposition of 17 beta-trenbolone in humans differs significantly from that in rats, which may have a bearing on the toxicological evaluation of the hormone.
Click to expand...

If you have any more info to shed light on an actual half life for tren acetate, please let us know.
 
Hey Zyg what about 75mg eod and 50mg ed?
Click to expand...

I could do more charts, but I would rather spend my time working on my scripts that will do it more efficiently as well as plot multiple times in one day etc. Once I get them up, everyone will be able to use it and get blood levels charts for multiple AAS cycles, with frontloading and everything.
 
E2 said:
The work is well done but i think you've highly over estimated teh half life of tren it is no where near 72 hours.
Click to expand...

I agree..

ZYG- I don't think parent trenbolone has a half life of 24 hrs.. If you read the last line of the study you posted, "Thus, the disposition of 17 beta-trenbolone in humans
differs significantly from that in rats, which may have a bearing on the
toxicological evaluation of the hormone."

Parent androgens ususally have half lives of only a few hours. If the androgen has a 17 methyl group, the half life is further extended.. Example: Dbol half life is between 4-6hrs.. un-esterified Eq half life is only about 2hrs. (dbol is eq plus a 17aa). I belive the study indicates that rats do not pocess all of the androgen metabolism enzymes that humans do. Usually half-lives are shorter in rats, but androgens often undergo chemical alteration before excretion. That was the purpose for the radio-labeled trenbolone.

Anyway, if you re-made the graphs giving trenbolone acetate the proper half life of 24-36hrs, you will see over 100% jumps in blood concentration from ED to EOD injections! Incedentally, the values on the graph (300mg) are inactive, esterified TA.. You would need to subtract one day from the next for active androgen released.


I might also add... twice daily injections have a benefit that is not fully reflected in the mathematical (theoretical model). This is because home-made preparations are usually more concentrated and have a good portion of benzyl alcohol. First, the larger the concentration of the AAS in oil, the faster the diffusion rate. Second, if BA was used to make an unusually high concentration of AAS in oil, once injected, water in the body will extract out the BA leaving a large amount of steroid precipitated, and remaining steroid dissolved in oil.


This all means that 1) using BA to make a solution in oil that normally would not fit and/or 2) Making a high concentration of steroid in oil, can markedly accellerate the release rate. This really cannot be taken into account with a theoretical model since it would be quite difficult to quantify the in vivo effects of such preparations. If there were graphs made with this taken into accound, there would be even greater jumps in blood concentrations from ED to EOD injections.


This is the precise reason why I advocate making no more than 50mg/ml trenbolone acetate.


Great job on the graphs!! I would like to see you do another set, giving TA a half of 24-36hrs!

Andy
 
Tren acetate half/life

<<The work is well done but i think you've highly over estimated teh half life of tren it is no where near 72 hours. >>

Yep Andy and E2 are correct. The half life of injectable Tren is only about 24 hous. No where near 72 hours. I was watching and wondering why it took so long for someone to bring this up.
 
A number of guys on the Fina board have been researching Trenbolone. As it turns out, there are a number of misconceptions about Tren.

One of these misconceptions is the half-life of Trenbolone Acetate which has commonly been believed to be 24-36 hours. Here is an abstract, posted by Zyg, on one study that indicates that Tren has a longer half-life than what has been assumed:

Disposition of 17 beta-trenbolone in humans.

Spranger B, Metzler M.

Department of Food Chemistry and Environmental Toxicology, University of Kaiserslautern, Germany.

The urinary excretion and metabolic pattern of 17 beta-trenbolone, a synthetic anabolic Steroid hormone used as a growth promotor for beef cattle in several countries, has been studied in a human subject. For the separation of the metabolites of 17 beta-trenbolone, a reversed-phase high-performance liquid chromatographic method was established. The method was tested with metabolites obtained from incubation of 17 beta-trenbolone with rat liver microsomes. Fifteen metabolites could be well separated in one run by using a concave acetonitrile-water-methanol gradient. After ingestion of the tracer-labelled hormone at a dose of 0.04 mg/kg body weight 54% of the administered radioactivity was found in the urine after 26 h and 63% after 72 h. Of the urinary material 54% was present as glucuronides, which contained mostly 17 alpha-trenbolone, 17 beta-trenbolone and trendione. At least five other polar metabolites, presumably hydroxylated products, were found in smaller amounts, mostly in the unconjugated and sulphated fractions. Thus, the disposition of 17 beta-trenbolone in humans differs significantly from that in rats, which may have a bearing on the toxicological evaluation of the hormone.
 
Bump

Well that adds some interesting food for thought. ANd I am practically sporting wood for the thought of a website that has the proposed features.
 
so what's your bro's take on adding fina to a first cycle? I've seen some people say it's not advisable for a newbie to take one their first few cycles, but from what everyone is saying and then these results, why not?
 
Zen42:

The metabolite 17 beta-trenbolone isn't the same that trenbolone. Your study is worthless.

Regards.
 
Good post!

Zyglamail, great post man! I am planning on throwing in some Tren the last six weeks of my upcoming cycle at 150mgs/ed I take it you wouldn't recommend that Andy......:confused:
 
Re: Good post!

WannaImpress said:
I am planning on throwing in some Tren the last six weeks of my upcoming cycle at 150mgs/ed I take it you wouldn't recommend that Andy......
Click to expand...


:confused:
 
Goering said:
Zen42:

The metabolite 17 beta-trenbolone isn't the same that trenbolone. Your study is worthless.

Regards.
Click to expand...

:FRlol: :FRlol: :FRlol: :FRlol: :FRlol: :FRlol:

Where do these arrogant, ignorant assholes come from?

17 beta trenbolone is the same thing as trenbolone.

:FRlol: :FRlol:
 
Andy

This is the precise reason why I advocate making no more than 50mg/ml trenbolone acetate.

From the statement above you pretty much wouldn't recommend the dosage which i plan on taking correct?
 
Re: Andy

WannaImpress said:
This is the precise reason why I advocate making no more than 50mg/ml trenbolone acetate.

From the statement above you pretty much wouldn't recommend the dosage which i plan on taking correct?
Click to expand...


Um....... NO..... I recomend making fina 50mg/ml.. I said nothing about daily dose. There's no law that I can think of that says you can only shoot one ml of fina/day.. You can shoot 3 @ 50mg/ml if you like. -Or- you can just make yours 150mg/ml and take one ml/day. Whatever pulls your trigger.

Andy
 
Andy, great point about the BA. High concentrations of fina have almost 50%oil/50% magic. Thats one aspect I overlooked. Also, regarding your quote from the above report, you quoted "Thus, the disposition of 17 beta-trenbolone in humans differs significantly from that in rats, which may have a bearing on the toxicological evaluation of the hormone." but at the beginning, you will notice the following
The urinary excretion and metabolic pattern of 17 beta-trenbolone, a synthetic anabolic Steroid hormone used as a growth promotor for beef cattle in several countries, has been studied in a human subject. For the separation of the metabolites of 17 beta-trenbolone, a reversed-phase high-performance liquid chromatographic method was established.
Click to expand...
and the title of the paper was " Disposition of 17 beta-trenbolone in humans.. ALl of which leads me to believe that the parent 17 beta-trenbolone, was tested in humans and the numbers in the report are those from humans and not rats.

And of course all your other points carry significant weight as well. I have read the many reports talking of not only the amount of injected AAS but its location also having a drastic effect on the rate of release. In our position however and our limited access to actual studies, my goal with the chart was not show any carved in stone specifics, but just a visual representation at the most basic level of the difference between ed and eod injections.
 
I cannot prove that the half life of parent trenbolone is not 24 hrs.. But if it was, EOD dosing would have little difference between ED dosing, furthermore, 2xED dosing would mean nothing.. and guys swear by 2xED dosing.

Really, though, try the graphs again giving it a 24hr half life (as reported by Bill Roberts and Brock Strasser)..

If you posted those graphs, NOBODY would do EOD dosing ever again.. there would be HUGE (well over 100%) spikes in blood concnetrations.

I think that study indicates that tren in rats may have a half life of 24hrs.. However, I am certain this is not the case with humans... If it were, this would be some kind of record for a non 17AA steroid.. It would surpass the half life of any other parent AAS by about 1200%

Andy
 
Frontloading fina?

If this graph is even remotely correct, could you get your blood levels to peak on day one by making your first injection 300mg, then continuing with daily 75mg injections? Would this even be worth doing? Thanks.
 
How does this compare to the dmso method? Does anyone know what the half life is for transdermal, specifically dmso? Is it any different than inject?

:angel:
 
How does this compare to the dmso method? Does anyone know what the half life is for transdermal, specifically dmso? Is it any different than inject?
Click to expand...

These charts only take into account the half life of a given product(I have done others for EQ as well). The half life is the half life regardless of how its administered. However, there are many factors that are not taken into account such as injection site and volume of injection. There is also evedence that we are only able to metabolize so much so fast. The thing is the studies are not super easy to apply to the real world. Because of that we cant really be certain of anything. My graphs are just a simple formula to calculate half lives and does not take into account the multitude of other variables. But none the less, they do seem to support the effects reported by those who have tried the ed VS eod methods. They are simply a tool to help people decide on the best means to inject. DMSO is a whole other story and likely gets into the blood stream much faster that an IM inj. Which is also likely why its not nerly as effective. Blood levels likely peak fast but drop fast as well, thats one reason 2x day application is recommended for the transdermal routes.
 
I have been a newly converted fina freak for the past several months. I noticed immediately, however, the conflicting reports of efficacy in relation to administration frequency and AAS concentration. This conflict of data compelled me to examine the situation myself, and I did so from a research standpoint as well as an emperical one.

The half life of tren, while debatable, is certainly no longer than thirty hours. Even so, this is not the only factor in determining efficacy/efficiency of delivery. Indeed, there are resulting processes from the introduction of the substance as a foreign one in and of itself that are unrelated to the direct utilization of the drug.

I wondered after my first trial with fina why I crashed so hard and fast after the cycle ended. Theorizing that it was partly due to a rapid depletion of the source molecule's bioavailability I then retrofitted my delivery to compensate by diluting my existing fina from the supposed 75mg/ml into a solution of 60mg/ml, which I then administered twice per day, twelve hours apart. While I noticed better results while 'on', the crash at the end was still immediate and severe. I have now decided that I will mix my fina into two seperate batches. One will be at 75, and one at 33.

I would mix a batch at 100 or greater, but I do not believe that this is even possible with the offered kits as they exist. In fact, I now believe that 75mg/ml is EXTREMELY OPTIMISTIC, even if following 'A's directions to the letter. The reason is simply that the solubility of the steroid in oil is poor. True, excessive BA can modify this, but the efficacy of absorption is so negatively altered that the endeavor is counterproductive.

I will do my next fina cycle as follows:

The first inject will be two cc's of 75mg/ml solution in the morning, followed by three cc's of 33mg/ml that night.

From that point on, I will inject one cc of 75 each morning and evening for the seven weeks.

On week eight, I will replace the morning inject with 1 cc of 33.

For week nine, I will replace the evening inject of 75 with a two cc inject of 33.

I will finish the cycle with dual 2cc injects of 33, once in the a.m. and once twelve hours later.

Will this work?

I'll let you know.

Oh, BTW, I think there may be a solvent other than BA that could be utilized in conjunction with the BA in order to reduce injection pain and further aid in the esterification of the steroid...

Any ideas on this?
 
Fukkenshredded,
This might be a dumb question but are you using clomid starting 3-4 days after and if so what dose? I thought that clomid was supposed to help keep you from crashing.:confused:

Chuck
 
So, basically, FShredded, you are going to taper Fina down, hoping to prevent the crush.
I think, HCG for 10 days, with Arimidex and Clomid, following Arimidex and Clomid for another 3 weeks, following Arimidex only for another week should do a better job.
 
Has anyone done real word comparisons of doing 75mg ED and 75 mg EOD? I mean is there that big of a difference in results you get from Fina by poking yourself EDnstead of EOD?
 
Has anyone done real word comparisons of doing 75mg ED and 75 mg EOD? I mean is there that big of a difference in results you get from Fina by poking yourself EDnstead of EOD?
Click to expand...
Not sure if thats a typo or not, but doing 75mg/ed VS 75mg/eod is not a fair comparison because 75mg/ed uses twice as much juice. The thrust of this post was to use the same amount of tren in a two day period of time. So a proper comparison would be 75mg/eod VS 37.5mg/ed.

I have not done the comparison myself since last cycle I ran tren at 75mg/eod and now using 75mg/ed. However quite a few have reported better gains by splitting thier eod dose in half and taking it ed.
 
Zyglamail said:
Not sure if thats a typo or not, but doing 75mg/ed VS 75mg/eod is not a fair comparison because 75mg/ed uses twice as much juice. The thrust of this post was to use the same amount of tren in a two day period of time. So a proper comparison would be 75mg/eod VS 37.5mg/ed.

I have not done the comparison myself since last cycle I ran tren at 75mg/eod and now using 75mg/ed. However quite a few have reported better gains by splitting thier eod dose in half and taking it ed.
Click to expand...

Ok I think I meant 37.5mg Ed vs. 75mg EOD. I used 75mg EOD myself and got excellent results.
 
wtg zyg

good info but some of us cant reach our ass and im not ready for site inj. that just leaves quads ,every day would shred 2 quads[pincushions]:bawling: oh well
 
How many of you guys have used 75mg ED with great results and minimal sides?
Click to expand...
Last cycle was 75ed tren, 600mg/wk eq and 600mg/wk test enth. At about week 2 I got oily skin which faded by week 4, thats it for sides.
 
its also makes more sense to take it everyday to get full benefit of the fast acting gear soak your system everyday
 
Zyg.. so it's better to to do 37.5/ed over 75mg/eod? Did I read that right?

I was going to run it 75mg/eod.. I wanted to test it out, also due to lack of $$ at this time so i couldn't go 75/ed... I dont mind ed injections.. it wont kill me. I would just like to know which is more beneficial?
 
Zyg.. so it's better to to do 37.5/ed over 75mg/eod? Did I read that right?
Click to expand...
Yep, it should give more consistant blood levels. But EOD will work.
 
I was thinking about this just yesterday , thanks for bringing it up to where it would be found easly SK*

One question for you Fina gurus though , woulden't the chances for "fina cough" be increased by the 150mg/eod does due to the higher mg at one injection , I know if I inject just 75mg to fast I get a little tight chested and weezy

maybe I should be injecting it into the viens a little further from the heart , the two in my arms tend to get sore.
(J/J)
 
ZYG, since we all know that bolus size has a significant effect on half-life, how about correcting the 150mg eod(100% increase in bolus size) for the extended half-life and graphing that for us? thanks,
===========================================


Zyglamail said:
Trenbolone acetate has a pretty short half life, only 3 days, which means that after an initial inj, 3 days later you have half of that amount left in you. When you inject, blood levels fall rapidly, then spike again after next injection. With an ed injection you get another administration of the drug before the previous administration drops too far. Therefor you get a smoother increase without the drops.

Keep in mind, the timeline on the above graphs is days. If I were to calculate blood levels on an hourly basis and plot 24 hours in a day for 20 days, the ed injection would also show peaks and valleys which are not seen only plotting blood levels daily. These peaks and valleys of course would still be much much smaller that the eod injections though.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
ZYG, since we all know that bolus size has a significant effect on half-life, how about correcting the 150mg eod(100% increase in bolus size) for the extended half-life and graphing that for us? thanks,
Click to expand...
I dont think it would offer all that much in additional info. People have been shooting long esters once a week for years and having good results. These numbers are just to help people meek out a little extra from thier cycle. In addition to depot size, depot location also plays a role in absorbtion, so does oil used as well as other factors. There are simply too many factors to take into account to really make that much of a difference and too little data on the various AAS absobtions times based on oil used, depot size and inj location to provide a graphical representation with any accuracy.
 
Damn I wish we had more people like Zyg here...i just rememebred this thread...brings back memories of the good old gang....I had just arived at Elite not too long then. Realy helped me. Zyg is a great guy....i wish he would post more! The guy actually took the time to make nice graphs...thats dedication!
 
Zyglamail said:
Trenbolone acetate has a pretty short half life, only 3 days, which means that after an initial inj, 3 days later you have half of that amount left in you. When you inject, blood levels fall rapidly, then spike again after next injection. With an ed injection you get another administration of the drug before the previous administration drops too far. Therefor you get a smoother increase without the drops.

Keep in mind, the timeline on the above graphs is days. If I were to calculate blood levels on an hourly basis and plot 24 hours in a day for 20 days, the ed injection would also show peaks and valleys which are not seen only plotting blood levels daily. These peaks and valleys of course would still be much much smaller that the eod injections though.
Click to expand...

this applies to test prop as well right? I just did a similar chart using a 48 hour half life for prop- instead of levels spiking up and down, there is a smooth curve upwards
 
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