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Fiber twitch muscles

C

Cubanito17

New member
OK guys i've been reading lately alot of this fiber twitch muscles i tried looking around to see the difference b/w slow twitch and fast twitch and I don't understand either one. How do you know if you have slow or fast twitch and which one is better for the body if you want nothing but strength?????Is there a way to find this out or change them :confused:
 
slow twitch is better for endurance athletes.. i think i have a lot of slow twitch. fast twitch is better for short bursts of strength, like sprinting and powerlifting.

I heard a way to test to see if you have more of slow or fast twitch, is take 80% of your max and see how many reps you can.. the lower the better.. im not sure on that though
 
Well I know I can't rep out weight like I might be able to do 80% of my max if it's 215 maybe 5 times that's it I know I can do more heavy weight than I can do reps. Does this mean something and is it good. ????
 
if you are better at doing max weights, then you probably have more fast twitch muscle fibers (good thing).

take me for example. I can do 145*10, but barely max out at 190-195. People with fast twitch muscle fibers, may only do 140 * 8, and max out at the same if not greater weights than me.
 
Hey thanks man. This helped alot so I have fast twitch muscle fibers. next week when i get back to training I'm gonna see how many times I can do 80% of my max as a ME day.
 
go for it.. you probably arent all fast twitch, just have more fast twitch then slow twitch (i envy you)...

i wish there was a way you could change it.. but unfortunately you cant
 
It's slow twitch and fast twitch fibers (not muscles).

Slow twitch fibers rely on oxygen for energy (which is why they are often referred to as oxidative fibers), while fast twitch fibers convert ADP immediately instead of ATP (or something like that, the physiology is pretty complex).

Slow twitch fibers allow for more endurance and you can train more often. Like your abs.

Fast twitch fibers are used for maximal burts of energy, like sprinting and powerlifting. Most elite powerlifters can only do 2-3 reps with 80% of their 1RM. Rowers, on the otherhand can do 25 reps with 80% of their 1RM. Both have their advantages, but more fast twitch is more useful for powerlifting.

Muscle fibers are different in every body part. Your chest could be all fast twitch and your biceps all slow twitch. As a general rule your abs, quads, forearms are more slow twitch while your triceps, lower back are more fast twitch.

Find out which is most predominant: Take a 1RM. Rest 10 minutes (as to avoid fatigue. Load the bar to 80% of your 1RM and Go ALL OUT. The amount of your reps determines how fast or slow twitch you are.

8 is the average. 3-4 is very fast twitch, 12+ is very slow twitch.

Hope this helps.

-Zulu

Edit: This is geneticall predetermined. For bodybuilders it may be wise to use more high reps if you're all slow twitch or vice versa. For the Powerlifter, lowe reps are still ideal.

If you're mainly slow twitch you can train more often. Take your abs for existance. You can also have shorter rests between sets (although you may take longer as you'll be panting for oxygen as explained previously).
 
yup i can get like 6 or 7 reps with 80 percent of my max (around there)

zulu, you really whhipped my ass in explaining which each of them were.. good job
 
hey thanks ZZ that helped out alot deciever yours helped out too. next thursday I'll know exactly what type of FIBERS I have.
 
Thanks man. I wish there was a way you can change it.
Click to expand...

You can! Keep lifting explosively and you can convert some slow twitch fibers to fast. At least that's the theory. Studies have shown the opposite to be true. Where long distance runners have had fast twitch fibers converted to slow. I don't know if there have been studies showing the converse to be true but it is assumed to be.
 
" You can! Keep lifting explosively and you can convert some slow twitch fibers to fast. At least that's the theory. Studies have shown the opposite to be true. Where long distance runners have had fast twitch fibers converted to slow. I don't know if there have been studies showing the converse to be true but it is assumed to be.
"


Oh crap...... I want a study, this would be about the most revolutionary news in the world of weightlifting!!

lol Deciever, I did a lot of research on this a few months back and read a couple physiology books (or tried). Glad I could help Cubanito.

-Zulu
 
that would be great if you could convert your muscle fibers.. oh yeah check your PM, im sending you an update on my workout
 
Fast Twitch vs. Slow Twitch

I don't believe it's possible to convert slow twitch muscle fibers to fast twitch muscle fibers and vice versa. I do believe however that each muscle fiber can be maximized dependant upon training technique. George Halbert is one of the all-time best benchers ever and I'm willing to bet he is blessed genetically with an abundance of fast twitch muscle fibers in the pressing muscles (George is explosive as Hell). This is not to say that his ability is solely genetic. He has simple taken his genetics to another level by training intelligently and more intensely than 99% of the lifters competing today. You are what you are; and each has to do the best they can with what they are given. The important thing is to maximize one's own potential.

I can do 80% of my 1-max rep on bench about 5-7 times so I think I'm average.

- Screwball
 
the article had so many big words in it, that i got lost.. i got the basic jist of it, but couldnt really comprehend all the scientific terms about the process
 
In "Power-A Scientific Approach", Dr. Fred Hatfield on page referring to a paper by Armstrong in 1987 states:
"The mechanisms by which power,size, and strength are reduced as a result of endurance training most probably are mechanical destruction of existing white (fast-twitch) fibers, their replacement by red (slow-twitch) fibers, and enzymatic and neuromuscular changes more apropriate for slow, endurance types of movements".
 
perhaps this means that instead of CONVERTING slow twitch fibers to fast twitch fibers, that instead a lifter can manipulate the types of new fibers created through the type of training he or she does. if you create more fast twitch, the ratio of fast to slow rises. but i don't think you can actually convert slow twitch to fast twitch. that's like converting hot dogs to twinkies... or something, hehe. :) just a thought.
 
Maybe, but the point is you can do something about your muscle fibers. Train explosively and you will develop your fast twitch fibers. I think that is a given.
 
Yup.

Even if you're slow twitch it may be better to exploit your fast twitch fibers (with low reps and explosiveness) because they have a bigger potential for growth.

-Zulu
 
I find this thread and debate very interesting. It reminds me that there is a rep calculator over at huskerpower.com, and I have for some time thought that the calculator was off, at least for me. It must be set up for someone with average fast and slow twitch ratios. For example last night for my max effort movement I repped out with 225, and did 17 reps. I knew this was pretty pitiful, but went to the rep calculator just to see what it thought.

According to huskerpower I have about a 330 bench. Well that is all well and good, except for the fact that I went well above that this past Saturday for warmups before my bench meet. So I know for an absolute fact that this rep calculator is grossly off, at least for me.

In order for the rep calculator to give me credit for a weight that I have done in training, raw, and not going to 100 percent, I would have to have done 225 like 25 or 26 times. I know for certain that I could not get close to that even if I trained for reps. Note that I have not done more than 3 reps with a barbell on the bench in over 7 months.

I don't think I could get more than 3 or 4 reps with 80 percent of my max. I may try that for a max effort exercise after my next meet and see for sure.

Good thread.

B
 
actually if that one at husker power is right then i should be benching 203 lbs! 140*15.. i hope thats right wheni test on monday
 
but like discussed in this thread, if your ratios are higher or lower than normal, the calculator will be off. If the calculator is right on, then you probably have the average ratio of fast to slow twitch. If the calculator calculates too high of a max, then you probably have more slow twitch, and if it calculates too low of a max then you probably have more fast twitch.

B
 
its weird, my 15 rep max is 140, my 10 rep max is 145-150.. both both numbers come out with a projected max in the same range.. so im assuming im average
 
I got alot of feedback from this thread it's great... I'll know what I am exactly next thursday for a max effort I'm going to do 185 til failure and see how many I get then check the 1RM calculator and see where I stand.

BRAIN one thing can you do 330 without a shirt. I'm wondering I'm not putting you down or anything but the thing is with the 1RM calc's I don't think they work on shirt weights.
 
Cubanito,

I can walk into a gym without a warmup, still wearing a tie and dress shirt and press well over 330 raw. I don't max out raw, but I regularly take a weight for a single after speed work in the 350+ range.

B
 
brian.. in the calculator that i posted it says your projected max would be about 405 if you did 225*17

does that sound right?
 
Brian benches near 500 If I recall. Or 450+ on a good day.

Deciever if they are accurate for you that means you're fast/slow twitch fibers are about average. The average is about 8 reps with 80% of your 1RM.

Many calculators work differently, but that is the basic formula.

-Zulu
 
You're only average in THAT respect. Your neural efficieny I'd say is very good. At your weight few people are deadlifting 350 pounds and squatting 270.

-Zulu
 
Aigh BRAIN way to go man. is there a carryover from your 3 board presses to your 1RM with a shirt. I know you bombed and all but depending on where you missed do you know. The reason I ask is b/c I would like to know for myself when I start doing them next week what I will do for my meet in JUNE or if I can't make that one then the one in JULY.
 
i am in the upper 400's with a shirt. I have done 475 two different occasions in the gym. I bombed last weekend with 450 wearing a different shirt, that does not fit me well. Raw, i am upper 300's near 400. I have shoulder problems, and I slightly tore my left pec 4 years ago, so I don't get real crazy without a shirt.

cubanito, I can bench more with a good shirt than I can do in the 3 board press. i don't know if everyone is like this or not. I have not found an exercise that is a really good tester for me. I think for a lot of people that their 3 board press is close to their shirt max. But I am not sure. i think that the most I have done in a 3 board press is around 430 or so. but I have been adding chains and bands lately and so it is hard to say how much I have had at the board and at lockout for sure.

For the next training cycle leading up to the May 11 meet, I will be using a lot of board pressing, both 3 and 5 boards, at your suggestion to make sure that I never blow a weight off my chest that I can't lock out regardless of what equipment I am wearing. I am doing this at your suggestion, and if it works, I will give you all the credit, but if it does not, I am going to twist you into a pretzel and dunk you in mustard.

B
 
brianmincher said:
I am going to twist you into a pretzel and dunk you in mustard.

B
Click to expand...

lol brian that has to be one of the oddest threats i've ever read.
cubanito, if i were you, i'd pray that your advice works... you dont want to get dunked in mustard do you??
 
Do not forget that if you wish to truly determine the fiber content of your muscles, the only way to actually do so is via biopsy. This hurts. Trust me. Other factors such as leverage, technique, figuring out which muscle is actually failing can screw up the rep test for fiber type.

And really, who cares? Sure it is nice to know if it is your field or something, but really it is no replacement for simply finding out which assistance exercise work best through trail and error, which will never be determined by biopsy.
 
WELL BRAIN see I'm not by any means david tate or louie simmons but the way i see it is if a shirt does help you with the push off your chest then you really don't have to worry about getting that push in your workout routine,(i've never worn a shirt but if the SOB would arrive then I can tell ya from personal experience) either way from my view if you can 3 board press you said 430 then that means your 4 board press is probably 480 or so and you most likely lockout around 510 or more then you have your 500lb bench right there. See I don't know this from personal experience YET(until I start next week) so i can't really help all that much but if it turns out that i'm wrong and this doesn't work for you then :D when you twist me and turn me into a 176lb pretzel i would like to be dipped in nacho cheez sauce I don't like mustard;) . You personally don't know me that's too bad but the FL crew can vouch, especially GRIMM that I'm a smart ass:p .

Deciever yea dude pray for me too, and if it turns out that I don't post on here after may 11 that means i'm somewhere out there:alien: .
 
Great post little brother,

I think you are really on to something here, and I am really going to focus in the next 7 weeks on board presses and lockouts, while not really worrying about full length presses except on dynamic day.

I will also honor your request regarding the nacho sauce, which I also prefer to mustard, but I sincerely hope for both of our health, (yours physical, and mine mental) that it does not come down to that.

B.
 
Thanks big bro.

I honestly hope these board presses work for me too b/c the least I wanna see at my JUNE meet is 3 caddys on the bar then I'll be happy as fuck. And I sure as hell wouldn't wanna end my training soon this year for (health) reasons.

Hey I was wonderin something say I do bench 3 caddys(315) in a shirt when I start up with my training after that does that mean that my speed bench will be 50-55% of 315??????
 
That is the traditional way of doing it. If you did 315 in a meet you would go with 155 for speed work. However, in recent articles, Dave and Louie are saying to use 45 to 50 percent of your raw max, with chains or bands.

I am currently using between 185 and 205 plus 50 lbs of chain, or sometimes chains and bands. I checked this with Dave and he said I was right on. Dave is only using 205 plus 100 lbs of chain, and his best bench is 585. Louie is using 225 plus 100 lbs of chain, and he has benched 600.

I think that you should use whatever weight allows you to do all 3 reps in under 3 seconds. I had at one time got up to using 245 for speed work, and while I could easily get all 24 (8x3) reps, my speed was not all that great. But I think the more advanced you get the smaller percentage of your max should be used on speed day.

What weight are you using for speed day right now?

B
 
Well since I don't use chains or bands right now I'm using 155lbs for speed bench now I havn't done DE bench in 2 weeks due to meet recovery and all. I'll start up again on monday. But I use this weight and I go by the article I read from TATE it says 3 reps under 3.5 seconds. When I was using 135lbs I could keep the speed under 3 seconds I was getting around 2.65 or so. And I'm better close grip.

So your saying if I do in a shirt 315 then I should use 50%(roughly). As of now I don't bench 315 my best 5 weeks ago touch n go was 270 so I'm using 55% for DE bench. As long as I don't go below 50% for speed and above 60% i'm fine pretty much right?????? It's not gonna screw me if I do 135lbs for about 10 weeks for all 8X3 if my bar speed doesn't increase????
 
The idea is to use the same weight every week while getting faster with that weight. You could probably use 55 percent of your raw max and not hurt anything. Make sure and switch up the grips though, do some narrow and some a bit wider.

The 3 reps in under 3.5 seconds includes unracking and racking. If you are timing from beginning of the first rep to the end of the last rep, make sure it is under 3 seconds.

I was timed using 185 plus green bands plus 50 lbs of chain and I was averaging about 2.65 seconds.

B.
 
no my under 3.5 is from when the weight starts to go down until i lockout on the 3rd rep. OK this is good as long as I'm getting faster it's all good.

Would working on the speed bag(boxing) make my speed go up????
 
I doubt the speed bag would help your bar speed, but it will make you faster with your hands, helps coordination, and would be a very good way to keep in good condition, so i would say go for it. I have never been worth a shit at the speed bag. I prefer the heavy bag, it is easier to make contact with. i swear the speed bag see's me coming and dodges.

B
 
well i asked b/c i did taekwando from age 5-11 competed in tournaments and got up to 2nd degree black belt then i quit altogether and at age 12-13 i did amateur boxing i never competed in fights or anything i just boxed in the gym down in miami then i moved to the town i'm in now(small place compared to miami) so I was wonderin I know i got fast b/c of the speed bag I could work that one pretty good. I have a speed bag and a heavy bag in the garage, it's actually one of those portable boxing bags that you fill up with about 10 gallons of water at the bottom to keep it stable, I doubt this but the owners manual(yes I actually red it for this one) said that the thing stable is about 225lbs solid but i've knocked this thing over quite a few times with about my 3 hit combo(its deadly:rolleyes: ). And about stayin in shape I think i'm in pretty good shape. I mean akatapout thought I was a solid 200lbs when I was 176 at the meet. So i'm not really worried about my gut i just wanted to increase my bar speed, if it really does help.
 
and about the speed bag forgot one thing after about 2 months of trying on my own and not listenin i found out it is all eye coordination I got to the point when I was in the gym and I can still do it at home that I can look away from the bag or even close my eyes and i can stil work the bag. It's all about eye coordination and timing(major factor)
 
i love beatin up the heavy bag for some cardio reasons.. it looks kinda funny cause the bag is almost as big as me lol
 
and about the speed bag forgot one thing after about 2 months of trying on my own and not listenin i found out it is all eye coordination I got to the point when I was in the gym and I can still do it at home that I can look away from the bag or even close my eyes and i can stil work the bag. It's all about eye coordination and timing(major factor)
Click to expand...

No disrespect but, if you can not look at the bag and still hit it, then eye coordination has nothing to do with it.
 
OK you have some truth in what your sayin and I'm not takin it as disrespect but what I meant to say or add to that was you need eye coordination for the speed and too keep the bag goin but once you get the feel of it and you can maintain speed throughout the whole time then you can do it lookin away. I can only look away once I got it goin and I know i'm goin good and at a certain pace.
 
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