Deloading advice? (for a max attempt)

[Jim Ouini]

So, for some reason I'm gearing up for a deadlift PR. Just a personal goal, I guess. I finished a run of 5 x 5 and off of that I started deadlifting 2 x week off a step, and later on added some bands. I started at 55% 1RM and over a period of 4 weeks ended up ~85% 1RM for 5 reps. No rhyme or reason, just a mish-mash of MC2 5 x 5 and throwing in some assistance exercises I've always wanted to try like GM's, pullthrough's and reverse hypers.

I'm going to start doing 3 x 3's, but after that I'm still debating

Option 1 - continue pulling 2 x week for 1/3 x 3

I'm going to keep the GM's, reverse hypers and I'm thinking of adding rack pulls.

Option 2 - pull 1 x week for 1/3 x 3, with the above assistance exercises.

Probably important to add that I'm doing some low intensity/high rep (2 x 12) full body stuff on the other 2 days: 2 chest, 2 back, 2 leg exercises + power shrugs for 5 x 5.

I'm kind of worried I won't deload properly and the only variable I'll have changed is my sets and reps on my deads (from 5 x 5 to 3 x 3).

Right now I'm leaning towards option 2; on the other hand, Korte has 3 x week dead lifting in comp phase pulling singles from 80-100(?)% So maybe I could do this 2 x week as an option 3...As you can see I'm kind of betwixt and between.

Any thoughts from the DF Krew on this? or anybody whose geared up for a big lift?

 

[Guinness5.0]

How many weeks are you going to be doing triples?

I tend to think you're not as "loaded" as you would be from a 5x5 run as you're not using tons of volume/ overall workload on the other big stuff like squats and overheads, but if this posterior chain stuff is kicking your ass like it is mine (literally ) you'll need to recover and supercompensate from the fresh stresses those newer movements have put on that part fo your body.

Just kinda guessing though. I'll be curious to see how it goes for you, especially if the PR attempt comes before mine!

 

[Jim Ouini]

Well I think you're right probably right about not being as loaded as 5 x 5...I wsa doing 3 x 15 for chest, back and shoulders the past 4 weeks, so pretty low intensity.

And front squats for 5 x 5, although those were pretty light for back squats (heavy for fronts though lol)

On the other hand, all that PC stuff 2 x week did leave me feeling beat down a bit...feeling tired and achey, although I didn't miss any lifts per se. Problem is, I find that workout to be pretty fun, I look forward to doing it even if I'm sore.

As far as 3 x 3, I was thinking another 4 weeks. So that's another 8 dead sessions. I was thinking 85-90-95-100% in the next 4 weeks.

Were you thinking maybe shorter would be better? Maybe I should just rest up this week by doing one 3 x 3 session and go for it next week and be done with it, heh.

 

[Guinness5.0]

Were you thinking maybe shorter would be better? Maybe I should just rest up this week by doing one 3 x 3 session and go for it next week and be done with it, heh.

I have no idea. Just as a guess I would say do it like the mc 3x3 intensity part for 4 weeks (MWF w/ dl on W) since systemic fatigue probaly isn't a huge issue for you at the moment. I say run it that way just because it worked before- not because I think something else wouldn't work. Does that make sense?

Hell, it may be worth trying something quite different just to see what happens, ya know? Like a 2 week intensity build up, short deload, then grip 'n' rip. Whatever happens I'm sure it'll be interesting.

 

[Jim Ouini]

I have no idea. Just as a guess I would say do it like the mc 3x3 intensity part for 4 weeks (MWF w/ dl on W) since systemic fatigue probaly isn't a huge issue for you at the moment. I say run it that way just because it worked before- not because I think something else wouldn't work. Does that make sense?

Hell, it may be worth trying something quite different just to see what happens, ya know? Like a 2 week intensity build up, short deload, then grip 'n' rip. Whatever happens I'm sure it'll be interesting.

Yeah it's not like I'm peaking for a comp or anything If it doesn't work I'll just mark it down as a lesson learned...

 

[blut wump]

I think I posted up a suggestion for ramping up/down for a 1RM attempt in G5.0's original 5x5 log. Madcow chimed in with either an affirmation or an improvement. Maybe you can fish it out from there.

The other side to it is whether you spend a month working up to a 1RM or spend a week getting rid of any current loading and then run a full-blown 2 months getting loaded and then working to a 1RM.

If you were planning to spend a couple of weeks working to a 1RM then I'd say go for it but spending a month makes me think that you might as well dive in and take two months on a full DF program.

This might be of interest:
http://www.powerpage.net/coanphildead.html

 

[Jim Ouini]

I remember that post, I'm going to sniff around for it.

Heh I have that Coan/Phillipi routine bookmarked and actually read it the other day.

Just at first glance it seems they share some similarities with Korte in that they work up to 1RM with 1 or 2 reps while maintaining some low intensity speed work. So that must mean something

Anyway thanks for the info. I feel good today so I'm going to go to the gym and see what I have.

 

[blut wump]

I first looked at the Coan/Phillipi routine about six months ago. It struck me as a 'serious' routine back when we thought the 5x5 was barely doable. I also note that the assistance work, well, the power shrugs, increases in intensity rather then staying constant as it does in the Korte.

The thing to note with the Coan/Phillipi routine is that this is just the deadlift routine for one day per week. You have to fill the rest of the week yourself.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Well I decided to do the following (at least for today ). I'll have 2 deadlift days, 1 light and 1 heavy.

On light day I'll use bands and step. Will only go ~60-70% 1RM for 5 x 3. On heavy day I'll ditch the gadgets and just pull regular for 3 x 3. Start at 85% and work up to 100% 1RM.

I'll continue assistance work like GM's and reverse hypers; on GM's I'll try to continue to ramp up the weight for 3 x 3.

I tried the light day today and it went pretty well; I only had 275 on the bar w/blue band and I was able to attack the weight with confidence Then I was able to focus on my GM's since my low back wasn't already blasted.

On a side note I saw a buddy of mine doing rack pulls so I tried them - I like it, but unfortunately the squat rack we have doesn't allow the pins to go lower than knee level

 

[Jim Ouini]

Well I'm not sure what to make of today's dead session. Today was 'heavy day' where I pulled off the floor, no bands.

I was actually in a bit of a quandry about how heavy to go for 3 x 3; I left off last week doing 405 x 4 off a step so I figured 405 for 3 x 3 would be OK. Then I figured that sure seems a long way from trying a 500 attempt in a few weeks

So I decided on 435 for 3 x 3. I got the first set and then only had 2 reps in me for the next 2 sets. As soon as I feel the slightest rounding of my lower back I just stop, so that's what happened.

I really thought it was going to be a lot easier, but it wasn't I rationalizing that the I'd never pulled this weight conventional, though, only semi-sumo. So in that respect I guess it's OK.

I'm going to have to test out my old style next week and see how that feels.

 

[blut wump]

Did you decide yet over what time-frame you are shooting for a new max effort?

I think you should decide on whether you are looking for a semi-sumo max or a conventional max and concentrate on the chosen one. Trying to leap upto 500 conventional might be 'ambitious'.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Yes indeed. 500 certainly felt ambitious yesterday lol...especially since my time frame was 3-4 weeks (well it'll be a total of 8 weeks since I started practicing)

I think you are correct sir. I had always planned on attempting it sumo...was practicing conventional because I thought it would be better overall and heard it transferred well over to sumo.

On a side note I read one of MC2's old posts on deadlift and recovery in the 5 x 5 thread and he said something about managing your workload very carefully if you plan on deadlifting 2 x week. Something I probably haven't done.

I may have to bite the bullet, just ride this out and do my best until I can bring my whole body around for a dedicated DF run.

 

[blut wump]

I'm screwed, then, cruising past 70% intensity at 3x per week for high volume. I think for someone like Tweakle pulling over 700lbs MC's words would be accurate. As you get closer to a max effort it becomes more important to get plenty of recovery time.

I don't really know. I've been in new, uncharted territory ever since I started this DF style of training. The MC gospels haven't led us astray yet, though.

 

[Jim Ouini]

When I read that I thought of B-money and Korte but that's a time honored program so I'd assume no worries.

Ya gotta love that Madcow2. He keeps on giving even when he isn't around.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Just finished up 2nd week of this ad hoc deload. Ad hoc because I'm not even sure I loaded

Anyway, today's workout was 3 x 3 pulling off the floor. I also decided to use semi-sumo stance on these days.

I intended to go to 435 x 3 x 3 since I missed it last week. But I got kind of impatient after one set there and ended up doing 445 x 3 and 455 x 3 too.

So 455 x 3 is a semi PR for me since at the end of my last 5 x 5 I did it for 2 before failing on the 3rd rep (it wouldn't budge). This time it wasn't too bad although I might've had a problem locking out the 3rd rep, couldn't get my shoulders back as far as I wanted.

My lower back has definitely gotten stronger over the past few weeks considering it failed me last time. Plus having done the 2 heavier worksets prior to my final lift and I'm not discouraged about where I am. Not sure I'll reach my goal but I'll keep pushing it as far as I can.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Well I totally bombed today's workout. Haven't had one like this in awhile but I had a feeling this morning as I woke up sore as hell, especially lower/upper back. I've been training posterior chain pretty hard and as I've approached heavier weights it's started to catch up to me. Even light squats were somewhat hard yesterday due to some lower back fatigue.

Actually contemplated skipping today's workout due to sore knee, elbow and aforementioned back, but like the trooper that I am I trudged into the gym. I should've had an inkling when 275 was starting to feel heavy. But I've had warmups like that before so I was hoping for the best. 405 was doable but 435 was sloooowwww. The whole time my upper back was feeling very weak. But in the interests of upping the weight I went to 460 since I did 455 x 3 last week. I got it about 2" off the floor and then bailed out.

Ah well I think it would've been a miracle if I'd gotten it the way I was feeling. Lesson learned and time to move on. I think I'll take it easy next week, no lifting maybe just some light sled dragging and kettlebell swings, maybe another try at a heavy dead next Friday and then start Korte

 

[blut wump]

Good idea to be careful of going into the Korte pre-fatigued most especially if that fatigue lies in your back. Still, Korte has people running back-to-back programs so maybe it's fine and that first week, like in the 5x5, is fairly mild being mostly about acclimatizing.

Have you thought about your targets and percentages for the Korte yet? What are your initial thoughts on how to pitch it? After the first week, I mostly ignored the percentages but it was handy to have that base in place as something I knew I could take as a guideline.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Well my targets are actually more like goals

Bench = 295

Finished my last 5 x 5 @ 280. Been working lots of reps at the 60-70% 1RM range lately, so I may have lost a bit of strength here.

Dead = 500

Despite today's flameout I'm confident I can get this with a more carefully managed program

Squat = 315??

I want to be ATF on this, too many times I've started ATF and ended up at parallel so this might be optimistic. Before my form/knee issues I was ~325 I think below parallel but not ATF. Worst case in volume phase is 64% * 315 = 201 lbs. I've been doing 175 x 12 lately so I think it's in the ballpark.

I'm not sure how much adjusting of %'s I'm going to do. I wonder why Korte has such exact %'s in his program i.e, 58-60-62-64%...I have microplates I can use to hit these but I want to keep pushing it like you guys said.

 

[Guinness5.0]

Bench = 295

Finished my last 5 x 5 @ 280.

Do you mean you finished w/ 280 fora single? If you finished 5x5 w/ 280 then you should be repping 295!

Also, I bet your squat will be better than 315. Something tells me it's all in your head.

 

[Jim Ouini]

Thanks G-diddy. I kind of hope that once I break that mental barrier and get confident in my form the weight will shoot up. I really need to figure out my squat, it's been broken for awhile now although my form is coming along now...

And yeah it was 280 for a single lol. Finished 275 x 3 and then I tried 280 and only got the one.

 

[Guinness5.0]

I must be getting old- my bench is better than yours but I don't care. I'd trade my bench for your DL

 

[Jim Ouini]

Not today you wouldn't!

Seriously though, I don't really care that much about bench either although I probably should...there's lots of guys at my gym who outbench me, at a Bally's no less