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Death Penalty Opponents

MattTheSkywalker said:


We will not determine absolute certainty, we will convict to a standard of beyond a reasonable doubt.

You're letting your emotions take control of your brain, which, when applied to legislation, is never a good thing.

We have the abduction on tape. If he confesses (see post #1), we have absolute certainty.

I think you are allowing legislative and legalistic concerns displace your common sense of justice, which is not good either.
 
To disagree with Matt, there is nothing inherently wrong with capital punishment, IF PROPERLY ENFORCED. When the evidence is virtually absolute, the execution of a murderer is justice, it is the removal of an individual who has no regard for the life of others, it is the removal of a "wrong".

In regards to the problem of costs, this is not directly related to the act of execution, but the extensive appeals process allowed. Definately there should be strict safeguards to ensure that an innocent person is not executed. ALL evidence should be allowed, nothing withheld. Some pro-death penalty advocates have argued that 10 years should be granted from the time of conviction to the time of execution, to allow for evidence to be discovered and presented.

This is a difficult issue, since it does allow for the elimination of one person's life. Although there is the possibility for error, we don't use this argument to justify abolishing the police system, which we know is rampant with abuse.

Here is a somewhat related issue:

A Politically Correct Nobel Peace Prize for Murder
by Michelle Malkin (November 24, 2000)

Stanley "Tookie" Williams was nominated for the 2001 Nobel Peace Prize this week. His supporters call him "wise," "compassionate," "well-read," and "wide-eyed like a child."

So just what are Tookie Williams' qualifications for one of the most prestigious honors in the world -- an award reserved for such eminent figures as Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., the Quakers, and the Red Cross? Williams is a hulking body-builder, recovering drug addict, co-founder of the violent Crips street gang in South Central Los Angeles, and resident of death row in San Quentin, Calif.

Never mind his blood-soaked resume. Williams is a leader and a great man, say his blind admirers. A do-gooder in the Swiss Parliament nominated Williams for his "extraordinary" work writing "gritty" children's books and organizing an "international nonviolence effort for at-risk youth."

The "Tookie Speaks Out" series targets readers from kindergarten up to high school-age. The books purportedly discourage kids from joining gangs. But their ultimate effect is to glamorize the criminal life. Each installment is illustrated with glossy photos of Williams in various stages of thuggery. The books also provide handy pronunciation guides to teach children the gang lexicon ("homeboy," "mobbing," "set-tripping," and "gangbanging," for starters).

San Quentin prison officials report that juvenile delinquents idolize Williams. His propaganda has been endorsed by the Congressional Black Caucus.

As part of an ongoing public relations campaign to soften his image while he ties up the courts with specious legal appeals, Williams has been profiled sympathetically by People magazine, Time, the Los Angeles Times, and the ethnic press. He even appeared on a TV special introduced by President Clinton. Barbara Becnel, a crusading journalist who "edits" Williams' writings, once gushed that if the death-row inmate had "been raised in Brentwood instead of South Central, he'd be head of the state Democratic party."

Williams' groupies would have us believe that their Nobel Peace Prize nominee is a helpless victim of his environment, addled by low self-esteem, forced to turn to violence by racist oppressors, and now apologetic "for the atrocities which I and others committed against our race through gang violence."

Spare us the sob story. Here are the cold-blooded facts missing from Williams' Nobel Peace Prize application:

Williams was convicted of murdering four innocent bystanders with a sawed-off shotgun in 1979. There was nothing peaceful or compassionate about the way Alvin Owen, Thsai-Shai Yang, Yen-I Yang and Yee Chen Lin died. Owen was a white teenage clerk at a 7-11 convenience store, shot twice in the back of the head -- execution-style -- as he lay unarmed on the floor during a hold-up. A witness testified that Williams mocked the gurgling sounds Owen made as he lay dying. "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him," the witness quoted Williams.

The Yangs were Taiwanese immigrants who, along with their daughter Yee Chen Lin, were gunned down during a motel robbery two weeks after Owen died. Half of the daughter's face was blown off by the shotgun blasts, former L.A. County Deputy District Attorney Robert Martin told me in an interview this week. Williams called them "Buddhaheads," Martin recounted, and robbed them of petty cash.

Williams has yet to apologize to the victims' families. When the trial ended, Martin told me, Williams muttered to the prosecution team, "I'll get every one of you m -- -- -f -- -- -s."

Spoken like a Nobel laureate.

Tookie Williams was sentenced to die for these brutal crimes in 1981. But at the end of this year, he will have celebrated 19 more Thanksgivings, 19 more Christmases, and 19 more birthdays. That's 6,935 days more than Alvin Owen, Thsai-Shai Yang, Yen-I Yang and Yee Chen Lin were allowed to enjoy on this earth. We can only hope the Nobel committee sees through the soft-on-crime lobby's phony makeover of an unrepentant killer disguised as a death row Elmo doll.
 
ttlpkg said:


We have the abduction on tape. If he confesses (see post #1), we have absolute certainty.

I think you are allowing legislative and legalistic concerns displace your common sense of justice, which is not good either.

Yep, no one ever gives a false confession, do they? No such thing as coercion? Cops with associate's degrees are skilled interrogators who never default to abuse....

OK I'll stop.

I don't really know what your second sentence means. You live in Northern VA now - go look at the inscription on the Supreme Court building. Nevermind, I'll save you the time. It reads "Equal Justice Under Law".

My 'common sense of justice' is deeply rooted in legal concerns. So is our country's.

Equal Justice Under Law means a conviction will meet a certain punishment no matter who you are. (Got that Martha? :) )

Consistency is the heart of 'equal justice under law' and given the flaws of our system, the DP has no role here.
 
atlantabiolab said:
To disagree with Matt, there is nothing inherently wrong with capital punishment, IF PROPERLY ENFORCED. When the evidence is virtually absolute, the execution of a murderer is justice, it is the removal of an individual who has no regard for the life of others, it is the removal of a "wrong".

In regards to the problem of costs, this is not directly related to the act of execution, but the extensive appeals process allowed. Definately there should be strict safeguards to ensure that an innocent person is not executed. ALL evidence should be allowed, nothing withheld. Some pro-death penalty advocates have argued that 10 years should be granted from the time of conviction to the time of execution, to allow for evidence to be discovered and presented.

This is a difficult issue, since it does allow for the elimination of one person's life. Although there is the possibility for error, we don't use this argument to justify abolishing the police system, which we know is rampant with abuse.

Here is a somewhat related issue:


There is nothing inherently wrong with capital punishment . However, implementation in our current system fails.

The only way I imagine capital punishment to be justifiable is a system in which *all* convictions are absolutely certain.

In our present justice system, quite flawed, the death penalty is wrong.

If a peson were sentenced to 10 years for, let's say, armed robbery, but irrefutable evidence was presented that he was innocent, would anyone say that he should continue to sit in jail? Of course not - we'd all demand his immediate release.

In this scenario, the prisoner can be released and compensated. With the DP, obviously there is no return and no compensation. Yet we convict with the same standard and same risks. This is wrong.

The logical answer is "make the standard absolute certainty". Well, OK. But how do you reconcile the fact that in courtroom A, someone is getting life without parole for "beyond a reasonable doubt", but in Courtroom B, someone is getting less than the max sentence because a different standard was not met.

Thus while capital punishment is not inherently flawed, in our current system, it cannot be implemented in keeping with "other" punishments. There is no 'equal justice under law'.
 
ttlpkg said:


Yes, please. Please remember the case we are discussing. There is no manipulation at work here.

I was responding in relationship to the point of expidited judicial systems that matt commented on. You know that you just like to try and play the divergence game.
 
MattTheSkywalker said:
I don't really know what your second sentence means.

It was an attempt (unsuccessful apparently) to state the converse to your statement:

"You're letting your emotions take control of your brain, which, when applied to legislation, is never a good thing."
 
WODIN said:


It cost 10x as much to execute someone as it does to give them a life sentance.

Really?!? :confused:

I guess that just seems surprizing to me...

Or is that just figuring in the cost of room & Board...and not figuring in the cost of facilities, including utlities, maintenaince and upkeep. And then there are also the court costs, medical costs, psychological evaluations, etc.

I didn't do a search on this...no time right now, so that is why I am asking why the cost of an execution is so high?
 
Re: Re: Re: Death Penalty Opponents

ttlpkg said:


Ultimate penalty by society rendered. Message to would-be criminals. Elimination of a threat to society.

Does not work, never has, never will, next answer that makes no sense please
 
toga22 said:


Really?!? :confused:

I guess that just seems surprizing to me...

Or is that just figuring in the cost of room & Board...and not figuring in the cost of facilities, including utlities, maintenaince and upkeep. And then there are also the court costs, medical costs, psychological evaluations, etc.

I didn't do a search on this...no time right now, so that is why I am asking why the cost of an execution is so high?

It's not 10x - that's an exaggeration. But it is a multiple.

The costs are becasue of legal defense - many death row inmates weer being spared the DP because there was evidence of shittyl egal erpresentation.

States decided to opena version of a public defender's office ion order to makesure that the accused got fair representation.

This carries on through thr appeals process as well - the state is basically footing both sides of the bill.

If you're hungry for knowldege, eat the book "Among the Lowest of the Dead". A little bit of an agenda in there, but good facts.

The easy answer is "reduce the appeals" but that gets into the "absolute certainty" issue again, and many have been freed from death row years after conviction. So that isn't really fair either.

make sense?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Death Penalty Opponents

havoc said:


Does not work, never has, never will, next answer that makes no sense please

Why don't you ask the family of this girl who was snatched if it makes sense.
 
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