Cycle and Eating Question

[Slyder190]

Blkout

First of all, I am not the biggest guy around. However, I am constantly working on improving the size and shape of my body, one meal at a time, one work out at a time, one night's rest at a time. I have completed a couple cycles, but my first time around a few years back was but as effective as it could've been, had I had more knowledge of the game. Looking back, I know A LOT more now about juice and diet then I did then and am now starting to examine my routines and routines in general to keep moving forward. I will post stats if you like. I don't know them off hand, but just say the word and I will measure them, they are not anywhere where I want them to be yet, but I'm not ashamed. I'm 5'8, 185lbs. 34'waist. Arms are a terrible (lagging) 16 and 1/2' You are much bigger than me and for that, I give you due props. As far as your smart ass return comments to my post and others - Maybe the guy who started the thread with his question isn't tryin to get on a stage one day and near 250 or 300lbs in ripped condition. My advice was quite simple and aimed at helping him put on some weight. I beleive it will help get him going. I never said avoid Mc D's or KFC like they were the fuckin anti-christ. Many of the guys around here are juicin to try and get bigger and look better. They are not trying to be the most massive guy on a stage. At a different level, a see-food diet I'm sure is a must. I doubt a lot of guys around here want to be fat and bloated a certain amount of the year. Gaining BF is part of the game and extra calories are a must. It's part of bulking. There is a difference though between bulking by addin 40 lbs and attaining a 40' waist, and bulking up by adding 25 and puttin 2-3' on your waist and being a little bloated. What I doo ,may not be what someone else needs, and what you do may not be what someone else needs. Instead af being a dick about things, what you could've done is said, "hey, I disagree, this works for me, give it a shot, or hey, not a bad answer, but you may want to try this". You could've maybe even tried to say to me, "this might be the next step or a better way". you gotta wonder sometimes if this board is about offering advice or straight flaming people.

 

[Blkout]

Re: Blkout

First of all, I am not the biggest guy around. However, I am constantly working on improving the size and shape of my body, one meal at a time, one work out at a time, one night's rest at a time. I have completed a couple cycles, but my first time around a few years back was but as effective as it could've been, had I had more knowledge of the game. Looking back, I know A LOT more now about juice and diet then I did then and am now starting to examine my routines and routines in general to keep moving forward. I will post stats if you like. I don't know them off hand, but just say the word and I will measure them, they are not anywhere where I want them to be yet, but I'm not ashamed. I'm 5'8, 185lbs. 34'waist. Arms are a terrible (lagging) 16 and 1/2' You are much bigger than me and for that, I give you due props. As far as your smart ass return comments to my post and others - Maybe the guy who started the thread with his question isn't tryin to get on a stage one day and near 250 or 300lbs in ripped condition. My advice was quite simple and aimed at helping him put on some weight. I beleive it will help get him going. I never said avoid Mc D's or KFC like they were the fuckin anti-christ. Many of the guys around here are juicin to try and get bigger and look better. They are not trying to be the most massive guy on a stage. At a different level, a see-food diet I'm sure is a must. I doubt a lot of guys around here want to be fat and bloated a certain amount of the year. Gaining BF is part of the game and extra calories are a must. It's part of bulking. There is a difference though between bulking by addin 40 lbs and attaining a 40' waist, and bulking up by adding 25 and puttin 2-3' on your waist and being a little bloated. What I doo ,may not be what someone else needs, and what you do may not be what someone else needs. Instead af being a dick about things, what you could've done is said, "hey, I disagree, this works for me, give it a shot, or hey, not a bad answer, but you may want to try this". You could've maybe even tried to say to me, "this might be the next step or a better way". you gotta wonder sometimes if this board is about offering advice or straight flaming people.

Fair enough dude and I apologize for going off on you like that, must be the Deca and Test.

But seriously, I don't post alot here except when I have the time so please don;t confuse my post count with a newbie status or anything. I do read alot here, and there are some good bro's on this board, I hope Serge didn't get offended because normally I agree with most of his posts too, BUT, there are a few things on this board that really bother me. How to eat for gains is one of them. You see, for years and years I was 6' 195lbs and could not break it for shit. But it was not until about 3 1/2 years ago that I learned how to eat for mass. Since then I I have gone from 195lbs to 265lbs. And yes some is fat, it has to be, I used to see 4 of my abs at 195 and now I can't see any, but I can see where they are, they are just not clear, but the point is that in order to be where I am, its necessary to do this. If I wanted to diet down at this point at see all my abs again, I would still weigh over 230lbs. If I had tried to stay lean for the last 3 1/2 years and get to 230lbs, I would have never made it. See my point?

I can't tell you how many times I get sick of hearing people on this board talk about eating clean calories and you'll grow. That's BS. Its TOO hard to eat enough calories and still keep your diet clean. I know not everyone here wants to be a pro bodybuilder and with the exception of one or two on this board, no one ever will be. I am not even trying for that, but it does not mean I cannot be as big as my frame will allow and still have good shape. Same applies for everyone else here.

The majority of people on this board want to know how to gain muscle, even if it means that they don't want to gain fat, they still want to gain some size, I have never seen anyone ask how to lose muscle. So, in order to gain muscle, the steps I listed MUST be followed. Yes you have to gain some fat to gain muscle, whether you want to hear that or not. Everyone wants to stay lean and still grow, sorry it cannot be done very effectively, can it be done at all? I'm sure some muscle mass can be gained while staying lean, but it would come at such a slow rate even WITH gear that most people would get discouraged after a short period of time and come right back to this board asking why aren't they growing. I'm sure you've seen these posts before. The reason why this happens is because they are not eating enough calories most of the time. Trying to eat clean because they've been brainwashed into thinking that they can still grow that way. Bullshit!!!! Muscle is harder to gain than fat, so you have do what you have to do gain muscle, which means gaining some fat. Fat is easier to lose than muscle so it only makes sense to gain the muscle you need and then take the fat back off later. This is the shortest way to achieving anyone's goals. Its no different if you want to be 200lbs or if I want to be 300lbs, its all the same, our bodies all operate the same way. The difference being that in order for me to be 300lbs, its going to take me much longer and probably take more drugs, but again regardless, everyone will have to understand to gain muscle, you must gains some fat and you must eat lots of calories. Its just a fact of life, and the sooner you or anyone else learns it, the sooner you'll start getting the results you want.

Peace guys...........

 

[serge]

BF around 16-17%,

you dont think thats a bit too high? Beezer claims to be at the same weight and much lower BF

 

[Blkout]

you dont think thats a bit too high? Beezer claims to be at the same weight and much lower BF

No, I think that's just right for a bulking cycle, I also think too many people "claim" to be much lower than they are.

I have seen countless pics of members here on this board who "claim" to be 10-12% and when they show pics, their bodyfat is no better than mine or in some cases worse.

Maybe I'm just giving myself the benefit of the doubt in saying 16-17%, but I'm trying to be more realistic about it compared to everyone else's assumptions. I could very well be lower than 16-17%, but I think too many people on the board have no idea how lean 10-12% really is yet almost everyone here claims to be at that level.

So, the way I see it, either I'm 10-12% judging by everone else's pics or either everyone here is not quite as lean as they try to convince everyone that they are. Hell I've even seen guy here that "claim" to be 8% BF and look fatter than me.

 

[Beezers]

Blkout...I agree with you to a certain extent. I disagree about not being able to eat clean and still get big while keeping an eye on bodyfat, not necessarily being obsessed with it. As serge said...I'm 6' 258 and at 10%, not entirely because of genetics or drugs....becasue I eat clean. You can indeed get the calories you need to grow while eating clean and the advantage is that these calories are very usefull to growing lean body mass and not just increasing scale weight.

Here's my diet.

meal 1
12 egg white + 2 yolks
1.5 cups oats

meal 2
6oz eye of round steak
8oz sweet potato

meal 3(postworkout)
110g maltodextrin
66g whey

meal 4
6oz eye of round steak
8oz sweet potato

meal 5
6oz salmon
8oz sweet potato

meal 6
12oz tuna
2 cups brown rice
1 tbsn flax oil


meal 7
12oz tuna
2 cups brown rice
1 tbsn flax oil

meal 8
1.5 pounds fat free cottage cheese

totals
cals: 5530
pro: 450
carb: 655
fat: 105


That's eating wholsome, unrefined, quality calories that the body can actually put to possitive use as opposed to reaking havoc on the endocrine sytem like "junk" food does and promoting adipogenesis.

I completely agree with you that to get big you have to eat big and sacrifice leanness. I preech that till I'm blue in the face, but you still see people wanting to gain 20 pounds and get down to 5% bodyfat all in the same 8 week cycle. It doesn't work that way and you're right about that. However, that's no excuse to load up on foods that have no relevence to the anabolism of lean body mass. There is no need to get "fat" while gaining muscle. You do have to sacrifice the abs and cuts if your goal is to get big. You are going to carry higher bodyfat while "bulking". This does not mean you can't keep it in check.

I never advocate free eating just to get calories in. If the person has an appeteite problem they learn to eat in bulk. They don't go to Burger King. The appeteite adjusts to demands (training) and to food bulk so there is no reason to tell a feather weight whom can't eat more than 2oz of chicken at a time to drink milkshakes just for calories. Those calories are practically useless to the human body, esspecially when you could be eating quality calories. Many people like to say that calories are calories, but when one compares a saturated fatty acid to an omega-3 fatty acid the difference becomes clear. Saturated fats decrease insulin sensitivity, whereas omega-3 fatty acids increase it. Camparing High GI refined carbohydrates to low GI whole foods is also plain to see the advatages. The refined, high GI food product will lead to rapidly elevated blood glucose levels which will cause a large release of insulin. This insulin will turn off hormone sensitive lipase, increase the activity of lipoprotein lipase, strain the pancrease, decrease insulin sensitivity, damge nerves(over time), harden the arteries, and lead to lethargy. Add to that list of possitive attributes the fact that refiined foods are void of any valueble micronutrients, all of which play a very important role in the metabolism of fat mass and lean body mass and you've got yourself a worthless bite of food. Low GI whole food carbs on the other hand avoid the insulin spike, maintain steady blood glucose levels to fuel anabolism, and are fully equiped with the many vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients neccessary for optimal metabolism.

So to just equate one calorie with another is not a good approach even for a hardgainer. Like I said, you're absolutely correct that people expect the best of both worlds while trying to get big and that is the real reason they never do get big. You do indeed have to sacrifice leanness for mass, but not to extremes. I made it to 260 and held my 10% because I ate a tight, bennificial diet. I'm not genetically blessed with the ability to get or stay lean. I have to fight for it and fight I do. Through that experience I've learned to bennefits to eating "clean" which is really just eating the way the human body is designed to eat. I always caution people not to bulk and cut simultaneously. It's the straight up truth that you will gain some fat whjile bulking, but the bottome line is that it is within your control to limit the fat gain and do everything you can to squeeze every last ounce of lean body mass out of your cycle/physiology. That is accomplished through eating right.

 

[serge]

Blkout...I agree with you to a certain extent. I disagree about not being able to eat clean and still get big while keeping an eye on bodyfat, not necessarily being obsessed with it. As serge said...I'm 6' 258 and at 10%, not entirely because of genetics or drugs....becasue I eat clean. You can indeed get the calories you need to grow while eating clean and the advantage is that these calories are very usefull to growing lean body mass and not just increasing scale weight.

Here's my diet.

meal 1
12 egg white + 2 yolks
1.5 cups oats

meal 2
6oz eye of round steak
8oz sweet potato

meal 3(postworkout)
110g maltodextrin
66g whey

meal 4
6oz eye of round steak
8oz sweet potato

meal 5
6oz salmon
8oz sweet potato

meal 6
12oz tuna
2 cups brown rice
1 tbsn flax oil


meal 7
12oz tuna
2 cups brown rice
1 tbsn flax oil

meal 8
1.5 pounds fat free cottage cheese

totals
cals: 5530
pro: 450
carb: 655
fat: 105


That's eating wholsome, unrefined, quality calories that the body can actually put to possitive use as opposed to reaking havoc on the endocrine sytem like "junk" food does and promoting adipogenesis.

I completely agree with you that to get big you have to eat big and sacrifice leanness. I preech that till I'm blue in the face, but you still see people wanting to gain 20 pounds and get down to 5% bodyfat all in the same 8 week cycle. It doesn't work that way and you're right about that. However, that's no excuse to load up on foods that have no relevence to the anabolism of lean body mass. There is no need to get "fat" while gaining muscle. You do have to sacrifice the abs and cuts if your goal is to get big. You are going to carry higher bodyfat while "bulking". This does not mean you can't keep it in check.

I never advocate free eating just to get calories in. If the person has an appeteite problem they learn to eat in bulk. They don't go to Burger King. The appeteite adjusts to demands (training) and to food bulk so there is no reason to tell a feather weight whom can't eat more than 2oz of chicken at a time to drink milkshakes just for calories. Those calories are practically useless to the human body, esspecially when you could be eating quality calories. Many people like to say that calories are calories, but when one compares a saturated fatty acid to an omega-3 fatty acid the difference becomes clear. Saturated fats decrease insulin sensitivity, whereas omega-3 fatty acids increase it. Camparing High GI refined carbohydrates to low GI whole foods is also plain to see the advatages. The refined, high GI food product will lead to rapidly elevated blood glucose levels which will cause a large release of insulin. This insulin will turn off hormone sensitive lipase, increase the activity of lipoprotein lipase, strain the pancrease, decrease insulin sensitivity, damge nerves(over time), harden the arteries, and lead to lethargy. Add to that list of possitive attributes the fact that refiined foods are void of any valueble micronutrients, all of which play a very important role in the metabolism of fat mass and lean body mass and you've got yourself a worthless bite of food. Low GI whole food carbs on the other hand avoid the insulin spike, maintain steady blood glucose levels to fuel anabolism, and are fully equiped with the many vitamins, minerals, and phytonutrients neccessary for optimal metabolism.

So to just equate one calorie with another is not a good approach even for a hardgainer. Like I said, you're absolutely correct that people expect the best of both worlds while trying to get big and that is the real reason they never do get big. You do indeed have to sacrifice leanness for mass, but not to extremes. I made it to 260 and held my 10% because I ate a tight, bennificial diet. I'm not genetically blessed with the ability to get or stay lean. I have to fight for it and fight I do. Through that experience I've learned to bennefits to eating "clean" which is really just eating the way the human body is designed to eat. I always caution people not to bulk and cut simultaneously. It's the straight up truth that you will gain some fat whjile bulking, but the bottome line is that it is within your control to limit the fat gain and do everything you can to squeeze every last ounce of lean body mass out of your cycle/physiology. That is accomplished through eating right.

the heaviest i have been is close to 260lb, my BF at that point was just under 10% which was comfirmed by hydrost. weighing, while i do have faster metabolism and surly did include some of the not so lean steaks, i alwas focus on filling up the clean nutrients first, you dont need to go over 10-12%BF to max out your gains, if you have trouble putting away those clean nutrients include a mild dose of periactin in your stack and your appetite will soar; another reason i hate to let my BF get out of control, is when it comes to dieting you will crave every little thing you can think of.

BTW, at 10% BF you would be 244lb

 

[Blkout]

Goood post Beezer and Serge, I could very well be below 16-17% and it wouldn't surprise me, I just think everyone on this board believes they have a lower BF that they actually do. When I see the pics of members we have here, seems everyone claims to be 10-12% and you see quite a dramatic difference in the pics from one person to another.

How old are you Beezer and Serge and what are some of your stats, out of curiosity?

 

[Blkout]

For example, take this guy here:

http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/murphy.htm

I'm at least as lean as he is and he claims to be 10% BF.

 

[serge]

For example, take this guy here:

http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/murphy.htm

I'm at least as lean as he is and he claims to be 10% BF.

bro, in no way is he 10%, i would estimate 15-17%; the problem with bros claiming to be BF% and looking fatter is due to the fact that most get theirs measured at the gym with BF caliper, according to that method (ive had a few different trainers measue mine) im ~4.5%, when i did hydrost. weighing Body comp analysis it showed 6%

 

[Blkout]

bro, in no way is he 10%, i would estimate 15-17%; the problem with bros claiming to be BF% and looking fatter is due to the fact that most get theirs measured at the gym with BF caliper, according to that method (ive had a few different trainers measue mine) im ~4.5%, when i did hydrost. weighing Body comp analysis it showed 6%

Well if that guy is 15-17%, I'm at least 14% or better which is fine with me for my weight and size and my cycle.