PoweredUp said:
Did you not read where I said I did an 8-week trial of the Lean Muscle Stack? I ran 4 weeks of the Phyto-Test stacked with Dermacrine, followed by 4 weeks of the Phyto-Test stacked with Sustain-Alpha. Are you calling me a liar? I actually still have the containers that I would be more than happy to photograph and e-mail to you. I think it's pretty presumptuous for you to assume that since I think differently of a product than yourself then I must not have actually taken it, and worse than that, I must have lied about doing so.
I'll say what I have said all along regarding supplements. If there isn't published scientific research from a major university study, then the claims made by the company are worthless. And I know what the response to that is going to be - "You don't need research because the people who use the product are the true researchers and they are all claiming that it works great!" My problem with that argument is that all of these products require you to eat a clean diet and to exercise regularly in order to be truly effective. Not a terribly outrageous requirement, except for the fact that it's actually the clean diet and the exercise that is re-shaping your body. Hell, I can bottle up some magic blue pills and promise outstanding results with proper nutritional in-take, lots of water, and a good exercise program. I don't know why so many people are so eager to credit the supplement companies for the hard work and good results that they actually earned on their own. It is the textbook definition of the placebo effect.
And again, there are a handful of supplements (about 5 as far as I can tell) that have been scientifically proven to aid in muscle growth, recovery, and increasing ATP. Multi-vitamins and protein are absolute musts for any program where the goal is to increase muscle size, and Creatine, L-Glutamine, and BCAAs have all been shown through research to have benefits in weight lifting programs versus those that did not incorporate them. All other products are just taking your money and taking credit for the work that you did. I'm just trying to help people out, and I'm not sure where the agressive opposition is coming from. Are you a representative of one of these companies?
And as for listening to guys like Mark Rippetoe, Tom Venuto, or Bill Starr, it's kind of like this: Whenever there is a debate over whether or not global warming is a real phenomenon, I will listen to what the scientists have to say - not the politicians. Whenever there is debate over the best way to gain strength and size, I'll listen to what proven men in that industry have to say. If you know of someone with better credentials in strength training and nutrition, please share their name with me.
Im a 23 year old from Maryland, I dont work for any sup company. I just hate people that say "this isnt proven, that isnt proven, where is a HARVARD study." PP sites lists and lists of references of where they get their info for their products, this site has HUNDREDS of people that use the AGX Sports supplements with GREAT RESULTS. Saying that EVERY PERSON is getting "placebo" effects is a cop out. Isnt this a HUGE group of people basically running "Human Tests". Because we arent logging our results in a medical journal, it means nothing?...I hate people that come in and say "this lifter says this lift is pointless, therefore it is correct and dont question it" but when people on here say "AGX and PP products are great and helped me ALOT" you say "oh that doesnt matter its just your diet and training".
I hate the "i read it in a book, that makes it true" people. Because no matter what arguement is made you will always find a cop out to twist things your way. You have already made up your mind and thats that.
By your logic, if a guy is bigger than me but trains with bad form and bad diet, but he gets results, and writes a book, and then other people so the same thing and it works for some people,I should listen to him because his way worked and is tried and proven to work?
By that stance, there are hundreds of people on this board alone that will back AGX products with their lives, but yet you dont give them any credit because some scientist somewhere didnt publish a log on it. The guys who made these products put lots of time and effort and research into their products and for someone to say "eh, they are no good because i havent read anything about them" is BS.
Maybe it was YOUR diet and training that was lacking when using the products, maybe it was YOUR body that didnt respond.
Maybe YOU are creating the placebo effect in your own mind for these products NOT to work. When I use the AGX products I have more energy, I FEEL hotter, I sweat more, I RECOVER faster. I have been using the PP products for 5 days, my appetite is up (its not placebo when my stomach is grummbling), my lifts have past their max even though certain body parts have not been worked in days, I have less fatigue in my muscles. As for the rest I did not CHANGE my normal diet or training.
I think your logic is flawed. I am a normal consumer, I HATE wasting money, I pay for what works. I have used MANY BUNK products in my time but these guys have put the time and effort in to make sups that work and I feel you bash them because you are the one creating a negative placebo effect in your own mind.
People arent QUICK to give sup companies credit...People look long and hard to find something that accually helps them. Then when they find it they post support for it. IF it was all placebo effect then I would run to GNC buy ANYTHING and say how great it is and get great results. The only 2 companies that sell things besides protein and such, that get results are AGX Sports and PP.
I am the first one to tell people they are wasting their money on things. You say that the companies say "u must eat clean and workout, blah blah blah"...WHAT SUPPLEMENT COMPANY IS GOING TO LIE and say "you can sit abck and eat junk food and you will get huge and lean". Its a common sense statement! "This product will help you acheive results and aid in your progress and for best results we hope you are incorporating a good diet and workout program"....That arguement of yours is weak at best.
Ok im done rambling Im going out for the evening...
-Legacy
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