Controlled delivery question

[tee]

I have a question regarding the controlled delivery of anabolic steroids. I am wondering if there is any case law regarding what needs to be proven to establish the delivery? If a package is signed for by the person that ordered it, I would assume that could constitute delivery. If a package is wired with a monitoring device to alert the authorities when opened, and is in fact opened after acceptance, I'm sure that would as well. How about if a package is wired with a monitoring device, given to a resident at an address, no signature is asked for or given. Seconds later, the resident attempts to catch the mail carrier to return the package, but is unable to. Say the resident places it on the porch to take back to the post office at a later time. Is that enough to establish probable cause to enter the residence? (An unopened package on the porch). Is there any case law to positively establish that a package was accepted or denied? Thanx!

 

[Rick Collins]

Not delivery

The operative concept is not delivery. It's POSSESSION. The question you really want to ask is, "What constitutes accepting possession?" Obviously, signing for the package or opening it is generally sufficient evidence. But the "totality of the circumstances" of each case is key, including what was said to the undercover carrier and the subsequent conduct as to the package. There are countless variations on the theme. I tried to provide all of the most common scenarios in the controlled deliveries chapter (Chapter 19) of LEGAL MUSCLE (even discussing writing "Return to Sender" on the package and leaving it on the porch).

 

[soprano9mm]

I think chapter 19 will be my first read......hope it came today....I feel like a kid in a candy store waiting for that damn book.....

 

[tee]

Thanks for the reply Mr. Collins. I do have your book, and did read it. It's a terrific book, but I did not see a scenario like I mentioned in it. My friend was charged with possession in my scenario. They police said they made a controlled delivery to his address and the judge said it constituted probable cause to enter the house. Like I said, the package was not signed for, nor opened. It was handed to a resident that lived at the location, but not the resident it was addressed to. When the resident it was addressed to (My friend) was informed of the package delivery seconds later, he attempted to catch the mail carrier and give it back. He could not catch the carrier so he left it on the porch and went inside. Minutes later, police were on scene with a search warrant. I do not see how that could constitute possession, nor delivery to enter the residence with a search warrant, but it did according to the Nazis! The main question I have is how can one get a warrant to enter a residence to recover what was left outside unopened on the porch? Any comments on if that sounds like an illegal search? I told him I thought it did.

 

[Rick Collins]

Let's look at the whole process. Government finds juice in package, goes to judge seeking an anticipatory warrant that permits search of the residence upon acceptance of possession of the package. So, the warrant is already signed by the judge before the actual delivery is made, but the agents can't act upon it (execute) until the package is accepted. That's the "condition precedent." Now, if the warrant says the package must be accepted by the person named on the package, then acceptance by another resident would not meet the requirements and the search would be illegal. If the warrant specifically says the package must be signed for, then the police can't execute the warrant without a signature.

But it's unlikely that the warrant would be drafted that way. A signature doesn't have to be required. (Remember, there's nothing magic about a signature -- it's simply one example of very good evidence of the acceptance of possession. See pages 219 to 220 of LEGAL MUSCLE). And as the agent testified in Perkins v. State (quoted on page 222), "in 99 percent of [the cases he handled] the packages were addressed to a fictitious person." So, the warrant can be drafted so that it can be executed when any resident takes possession. Uncle Elroy takes the package, WHAM! The condition precedent is met. The bell is rung.

Once probable cause exists and the condition precedent is met, it can't be undone. Your friend's efforts to "unring" the bell were discounted by the judge on the issue of probable cause to execute the warrant. Sorry I don't have a more positive answer. Of course, the fact that he tried to return it and left it outside could possibly be viewed by a favorably inclined jury as a reasonable doubt about his guilt.

 

[tee]

Thanks again for the help. I just do not understand how a package can be said to be accepted if it was never opened, whether it was taken from the mail carrier or not. Even if it was opened, I would think the law would have to wait a reasonable amount of time to see if the person phones the cops or post office to inform them of a suspicious package they received. In my opinion, a reasonable person would accept any package delivered to their home. What they do with that package would be the key. If the contents were found later inside the persons medicine cabinet or stuffed in their mattress, I would think that would constitute acceptance. As far as I know, even ordering anabolic steroids is not a crime, possession of them is. With this scenario I posted, I could order some roids and send them to the judges home. I could then call the US Customs rat patrol and tell them this guy is a friend of mine and just ordered steroids. When the mailman brings them to his home, he should then be arrested as well....correct? Sorry if I sound difficult, but this whole incident to me and my bro makes absolutely no sense. We live in the United States, not a third world country...I think! lol

 

[tee]

P.S. This warrant was not signed by the judge until after the cops made entry into the residence. The only thing that was signed beforehand was the warrant for the monitoring device on the package that obviously never went off because the package was not opened.

 

[tiger88]

hey tee good post, did u say buying AAS isnt illegal just poss. is ? can u help out with that? thanx bro

 

[plethos]

Thanks again for the help. I just do not understand how a package can be said to be accepted if it was never opened, whether it was taken from the mail carrier or not. Even if it was opened, I would think the law would have to wait a reasonable amount of time to see if the person phones the cops or post office to inform them of a suspicious package they received. In my opinion, a reasonable person would accept any package delivered to their home. What they do with that package would be the key. If the contents were found later inside the persons medicine cabinet or stuffed in their mattress, I would think that would constitute acceptance. As far as I know, even ordering anabolic steroids is not a crime, possession of them is. With this scenario I posted, I could order some roids and send them to the judges home. I could then call the US Customs rat patrol and tell them this guy is a friend of mine and just ordered steroids. When the mailman brings them to his home, he should then be arrested as well....correct? Sorry if I sound difficult, but this whole incident to me and my bro makes absolutely no sense. We live in the United States, not a third world country...I think! lol

My warrant in my case actually had a clause to give me time to phone the police about what was in the package but from what I understand this is rare. I believe the issue is "sure course" which is covered in Rick's book as well. Since the package was on it's way to the residence, and accepted, the court probably figured there was probable cause to search the residence.

 

[AAP]

Ok... suppose you are aware of an impending controlled delivery being made to you..... you get the package...

Now come on.. tell the truth... 99% of the people that get something in the mail... what do they do? they open that mutha to see what is there. It is more suspicious NOT to open something that is addressed to you in your own name.
Also, the address and name is correct, so how would you mark wrong address on there to return it to the post office. You go there and say "hey, was not expecting this." I mean... really... most people would open it up and see.

Ok, assuming that guy sends his stuff without requiring a sig.. so if asked to sign, that would be the first clue right? So if a guy comes up to me and says "hey John Doe, need you sign for this right here" What do I do? Say "sorry man, not expecting nothing from that place." This would give significance to the fact that you were worried about it enough to refuse it. right?

 

[plethos]

Ok... suppose you are aware of an impending controlled delivery being made to you..... you get the package...

Now come on.. tell the truth... 99% of the people that get something in the mail... what do they do? they open that mutha to see what is there. It is more suspicious NOT to open something that is addressed to you in your own name.
Also, the address and name is correct, so how would you mark wrong address on there to return it to the post office. You go there and say "hey, was not expecting this." I mean... really... most people would open it up and see.

Ok, assuming that guy sends his stuff without requiring a sig.. so if asked to sign, that would be the first clue right? So if a guy comes up to me and says "hey John Doe, need you sign for this right here" What do I do? Say "sorry man, not expecting nothing from that place." This would give significance to the fact that you were worried about it enough to refuse it. right?

You're absolutely right IMO, but you're assuming that you are considered guilty of posession of the package right from acceptance. In actuality when you accept the package the only thing considered there is probable cause to search your place because something illegal was sent to your place and accepted. In order to prove you guilty of posession of the package in court there needs to be some evidence showing you knew what was in it- taking it out of the package and storing it somewhere in your house could be decent evidence of this, having other such substances in your house could be, bank records maybe, emails showing you bought it online maybe, any sort of paper trail, etc, etc, etc.

 

[AAP]

Some of us have an appearance that leaves no doubt at all we use what is in those packages. I mean, that would be like asking a beauty pagent contestant if she uses hair spray.

 

[KILLER2001]

So say you deny to sign for a package, what happens then.

 

[AAP]

So say you deny to sign for a package, what happens then.

Yeah. What then?

Bros around here running scared about a flurry of possible controlled deliveries now.

 

[Rick Collins]

If someone refuses to accept possession of something, it's quite difficult to charge him with possessing it, of course. But the specifics of the conversation and other circumstances are relevant (see LEGAL MUSCLE pages 227 to 228) and the feds have other options to confront the person with, such as a knock-and-talk or a grand jury subpoena. The most likely scenario is a knock-and-talk, and pages 98-99, and chapters 21 and 22 fully cover how to deal with that.

 

[boss]

well after just looking through this board this isnt a bb law board, this is a buy my book board. no offence rick but you answer just enough of a question to make someone need to by the book. i dont think personally this board does anything for anyone but your profit.

 

[Rick Collins]

Sorry you feel this way, Boss. Actually, from a profit standpoint, the book doesn't account for much of my income. Sadly, the income of my law firm is derived mainly from people who DON'T buy the book. I truly believe in its value, and I'm grateful and honored that the feedback I've gotten has been so positive from those who've read it.

 

[plethos]

So say you deny to sign for a package, what happens then.

That;s assuming they will even ask for you to sign it. They don't need to and they didn't in my case. All they need is an officer's testimony.

 

[HULKSTER]

That;s assuming they will even ask for you to sign it. They don't need to and they didn't in my case. All they need is an officer's testimony.

And, of course, the judge and prosecutor will believe the cop---not you. The cards are already stacked against you before you even open the door.

 

[AAP]

And, of course, the judge and prosecutor will believe the cop---not you. The cards are already stacked against you before you even open the door.

Yeah, it sounds that way.

 

[Mike DiMaggio]

well after just looking through this board this isnt a bb law board, this is a buy my book board. no offence rick but you answer just enough of a question to make someone need to by the book. i dont think personally this board does anything for anyone but your profit.

boss...

The number one authority on anabolic steroid related legal issues is answering questions for free...Meaning there is no obligation for anyone to buy the book.

If he chooses to provide the best answers he can without having to copy and paste 20 pages of a book it took him nearly a year to write, I wouldn't be giving him a hard time about it. He has put together hundreds of hours of legal work, worth thousands and thousands of dollars in a very affordable book. He is giving up an extraordinary amount of time to help out bros on this board that have legal questions.

Have you ever asked an attorney to sit down and answer some questions for you? You're looking at a minimum of a few hundred dollars an hour. Rick is providing that service for free.

If Rick derives a small profit because people are interested in reading more about the legal issues related to anabolic steroids as they are interested in protecting their ass in the most cost-efficient way possible, do you think it's fair to criticize him?

BTW...Steroidlaw has been up for years providing entirely free information! Rick has answered questions even from individuals who call the office and express that they have no money but would love to just talk with him for a minute. He has given advice that has saved people in a tight situation from landing themselves in jail, for nothing more than a "thank you."

He does it because he..........sometimes I have to ask him again why he does it. Oh yeah...because he doesn't believe in subjecting individuals who are interested in cosmetically enhancing their bodies, to laws that can land them in prison!

Sorry for the rant, but I have nothing but respect for the man and I consider it an honor to have the opportunity to work with him.

 

[tee]

hey tee good post, did u say buying AAS isnt illegal just poss. is ? can u help out with that? thanx bro

Thanks Tiger. I'm just trying to help out fellow bros beat the wanna be cops at their game. I didn't mean to say buying steroids is legal. What I was saying is I can't think of a law against ordering gear over the internet. To my knowledge, that is not a crime. Accepting the package would be a crime though. Hope that clarifies a little bit.

 

[tee]

Ok... suppose you are aware of an impending controlled delivery being made to you..... you get the package...

Now come on.. tell the truth... 99% of the people that get something in the mail... what do they do? they open that mutha to see what is there. It is more suspicious NOT to open something that is addressed to you in your own name.
Also, the address and name is correct, so how would you mark wrong address on there to return it to the post office. You go there and say "hey, was not expecting this." I mean... really... most people would open it up and see.

I don't think its suspicious to not open a package that has your name on it. If a package is coming from overseas, its pretty obvious once you look at it. If a person doesn't order a lot of items from overseas and then once shows up, I think that is suspicious and I wouldnt open it. Even domestic mail I send back with my name on it. I wish I could count the DVDs and CDs I have returned that i didnt want.

As far as returning it to the post office and marking "Wrong address" on it, I wouldnt do that if my name & address was on it. I would put "Did not order" or something to that effect, if I put anything at all on it.

 

[boss]

boss...

The number one authority on anabolic steroid related legal issues is answering questions for free...Meaning there is no obligation for anyone to buy the book.

If he chooses to provide the best answers he can without having to copy and paste 20 pages of a book it took him nearly a year to write, I wouldn't be giving him a hard time about it. He has put together hundreds of hours of legal work, worth thousands and thousands of dollars in a very affordable book. He is giving up an extraordinary amount of time to help out bros on this board that have legal questions.

Have you ever asked an attorney to sit down and answer some questions for you? You're looking at a minimum of a few hundred dollars an hour. Rick is providing that service for free.

If Rick derives a small profit because people are interested in reading more about the legal issues related to anabolic steroids as they are interested in protecting their ass in the most cost-efficient way possible, do you think it's fair to criticize him?

BTW...Steroidlaw has been up for years providing entirely free information! Rick has answered questions even from individuals who call the office and express that they have no money but would love to just talk with him for a minute. He has given advice that has saved people in a tight situation from landing themselves in jail, for nothing more than a "thank you."

He does it because he..........sometimes I have to ask him again why he does it. Oh yeah...because he doesn't believe in subjecting individuals who are interested in cosmetically enhancing their bodies, to laws that can land them in prison!

Sorry for the rant, but I have nothing but respect for the man and I consider it an honor to have the opportunity to work with him.

whoa........bro you got me wrong!!! never did i say that his is not a aset to the board. what gets me is when a person ask's a question and he gives about all the info, then refers to chapter whatever...page 238 of his book for the whole answer. if your going to start to answer the question, then give the answer. that would get me to buy his book too!! but for a guy to stop in short of the answer bugs the shit out of me!! also yes i have had leagle problems and know what its like to sit with a guy and have him tell you $2500.00 to start.