CK (cardiac enzymes) HIGH

[HamStuffer]

I have been diagnosed with something like cardiomyopathy (enlarged heart, or thick ventricle muscle) and I am not sure if it is AS related. I have been also diagnosed through blood work that my CK Enzymes are extremely high. My doctor said that it is not nessessarily cardiac mucsle enzymes, but could be skeletal muscle. The normal range is 30-170. On July 4th, mine was 1390, and last week it doubled to 3500. Has anybody heard of this? My doc is somewhat worried, like me. Does anybody have the same symptoms? Is it just expected when you strain your muscles to the limit? Thx

 

[alambrose]

enzymes

enzymes are elevated in response to tissue breakdown, which happens with intense training

however, there are several different types of enzymes,
CK-MM and CK-MB... the CK-MB is more specific to cardiac muscle, the CK-MM is more specific to skeletal muscle. In the absence of chest pain and other corrborating symptoms, I would assume your Dr was looking at a CK-MM reading. There is also another test called "Troponin", but this is most useful immediately after a suspected cardiac event.

If I were you I would also ask for an EKG and have it reviewed by a cardiologist.

 

[liftsiron]

You need to see a cardiologist right now. I have some real fucked up shit going on right now. I've had an enlarged heart for years with no problem. A little over a year ago I got the flu from hell, I went into resp arrest, cardiac arrest and kidney failure, I was on life support for three days. I thought that I had fully recovered, as I competed in three shows this year and felt fine. A few weeks ago I woke up and could barely breathe, I went to the er and my lungs were full of fluid. Right now I'm taking medcine to combat congestive heart failure. My last echo showed a 15% ejection fraction, that is about 25% of normal. Not good. Well in a couple of days I see a specialist in this area, to get a game plan. The docs told me that this is not related to steroid use, but to a bacterial infection in my heart last year. You can e-mail if you like as I'm becomming somewhat of an expert on heart problems.

 

[HamStuffer]

hey liftsiron,

I tried to email you, but your profile does not allow email from this board. Drop me an email where I can hold of you. I have very similiar symptoms. Thanks..

 

[DocTodd]

The only way you could be diagnosed with cardiomyopathy is by an ultrasound.....sometimes a CT or MRI can see it, but there is no reason to do those instead of an ultrasound. If it was just an enlarged heart seen by X-ray, it is usually due to hypertension. Could it be related to AAS?....i dont know.

Troponin is the most sensitive for immediate heart attack like it was mentioned. Also, CK-MB is more specific for heart muscle...also mentioned already. You need a workup bro. How old are you? Sometimes cardiomyopathy is not related to anything. You may have heard of some athletes who died on the court/field. There is treatment though and you can consider yourself either 2 ways......unlucky cuz you developed this or lucky that someone found it.

I also think its time to tell your doc about the AS.


T

 

[liftsiron]

Doc Todd could tell me implications of a low injection fraction, also would lasix and spironlactone affect it because of there dehydrating effect? I had an echocardigram about 10 days ago and it showed an injection fraction of 15%.

 

[alambrose]

ejection fraction

ejection fraction is a measure of cardiac output, I don't remember normal values off the top of my head because its been awhile since I worked ICU/CCU

In any case, 15% is low and would be indicative of some sort of pathology, possibly a cardiomyopathy, but I am not well schooled enough in cardiac to make those kind of assessments

 

[muscleburn]

hey guyz,

i dont know if ur in america or britain etc, obviously is the difference between paying and free treatment, but what alambrose says about the difference between the skeletal and cardiac enzymes is very distictable via blood tests, so therefore i would assume that if ur in america then a blood test would end up cheaper in the long run than going through the process with a cardiologist. But one thing to bear in mind is that strenuous exercise can also elevate CK-MB (heart enzymes) but it is the recover time of these enzymes back to normal levels that determines whether there is an acute or chronic event or normal exercise trauma.

hope this helps, but if u live in britain, it will probably take u a year to see a cardiologist anyway. So ask ur doc for a cardiac specific enzyme test....

 

[Adaptek]

You need to see a cardiologist right now. I have some real fucked up shit going on right now. I've had an enlarged heart for years with no problem. A little over a year ago I got the flu from hell, I went into resp arrest, cardiac arrest and kidney failure, I was on life support for three days. I thought that I had fully recovered, as I competed in three shows this year and felt fine. A few weeks ago I woke up and could barely breathe, I went to the er and my lungs were full of fluid. Right now I'm taking medcine to combat congestive heart failure. My last echo showed a 15% ejection fraction, that is about 25% of normal. Not good. Well in a couple of days I see a specialist in this area, to get a game plan. The docs told me that this is not related to steroid use, but to a bacterial infection in my heart last year. You can e-mail if you like as I'm becomming somewhat of an expert on heart problems.

Sorry to hear about his liftsiron. I also have left-ventricular hypertrophy and a mitral valve prolapse. This causes me to get shortness of breath. This together with sinus trouble and allergies is not good. I constantly get sinus infections. Right now I am having trouble breathing, I'm weezing etc.. I just hope I do not have a heart infection also.

 

[DocTodd]

15% ejection fraction is very low. Sometimes an ultrasound is misleading with an enlarged heart. Cardiomyopathy can give misleading results i think. The most specific test to determine your EF is a MUGA scan. It is a radioisotoope scan that gives the best picture of your heart and how well it is working. The details are beyond the scope of my knowledge. No matter what people say here (including me) i think you need to speak to a cardiologist. In any case i dont know how you can work out with such a low EF. Normal EF is 70%.

Good luck man.

T

 

[DocTodd]

How old are you and how long have you been on gear?


Liftsiron, same question for you. How old are you and how long on gear?

As for your questions, Lasix and spironolactone are both diuretics like everyone knows. They will decrease the total fluid your heart has to pump. The heart is just a pump with 2 main sections and has to push a certain amount of fluid (blood, plasma, etc) through your body. One section (right side of heart) pushes to your lungs, the other section (left side) pushes to the rest of your body through your aorta. You can have different types of heart failure. Left heart failure is more common and leads to a backup of fluid into your lungs. Right failure is also common, but the most common reason for right heart failure is left heart failure. It just backs up past the lungs and overloads the right side. The symptom for right failure is fluid buildup in your body, most commonly your legs especially after being on your feet for a long time. Diuretics lessen the load your heart has to work, but it isnt a cure. It will also lower your blood pressure, which you need to keep high enough to live.



As for what muscleburn says, you have other things going on. If it were just an isolated blood test, i would say ok. But you have evidence of other things going on with your heart. You need to see a cardiologist.

T

 

[liftsiron]

Doc Todd I am 45 years old and have been doing moderate dose steroid cycles for around 15 years. I also find it hard to believe that I only have an EF of 15%, although some what shorter of wind than normal, I can still work out fairly hard. Last year starting with influenza type A and B I ended up in the hospital. During that time I had complete respirtory arrest, cardiac arrest, and kidney failure, My heart was stopped for severel minutes. I was vented and put on a heart cathather getting cardiac shock drugs for three days. Also durning that time I got a severe bacterial infection in both lungs and my heart. I recovered and felt great until a few weeks ago when my lungs filled with fluid. The echo also revealed that the mitral valve is leaking. My current doctor is a pulmonary specialist, I have follow up with a noted cardiologist in two days. My doctor has already confered with a few cardiologist and they suspect that this problem was caused by the bacterial endocardiatis that I had over a year ago,

 

[HamStuffer]

I am 33. Two things that I really notice a lot is that I sweat a lot, for on reason and it usually is only on one side of of my body (my right side) and 2, I don't have a lot of endurance anymore. I get winded really easy and my muscles get sore very quickly. I have had to echo's done recently and both show a larger than normal left ventricle and my ejection fraction is at 49, which is lower than it should be, but by no means as low as Liftsiron (sorry bro). It all started when I was hospitalized from a crippling pain in my abdomen which caused it to litterally ripple and roll on its own. I lost 22 lbs in 3 days. That is when the echo was done because of very high CK enzymes (1300 at the time), now it is 3500. The normal range for CK enzymes are 40-170 U/L. An ejection fraction of 50 or more is normal, anything less is considered abnormal. The walls of my Left Ventricle are thick too. The question I had is if this is all related to AS. Good luck Liftsiron.... (dropped you an email too)..

 

[DocTodd]

Endocarditis is an infection of the inside of the heart, always or almost always the valves. The most common way to get this is by using dirty needles or sharing needles. If your valves arent working well or have a leak, then your ejection fraction will be down.

Im not saying you guys shared needles with someone else, but it is a lesson to all here to make sure you dont use a dirty or used needle, even if it is used by the same person. Not to mention the incurable hepatitis/HIV and other things you can catch.

I still dont know if this is caused by the AS, but heart disease is a well known side-effect of AS, although it is usually related to increased cholesterol and triglycerides. But if you have high blood pressure for a long enough time your heart will get bigger, which isnt a good thing.

Email me if you guys have any more questions that i can try to answer.


T

 

[muscleburn]

Hamstuffer

without getting bogged down with everthing, but to answer ur question, AS will cause ur heart to grow. But then atheletes who dont use AS also can have an enlarge heart (especially the left wentricle), most pulmonary problems lead to an increase in size of the right ventricle. In Britain we use different ways to gauge and measure tests so its difficult for me to comment on ur results, but if ur left ventricle becomes so large that it does not have the space to beat effciently then that could explain ur low EF.

And u dont say what was the cause of ur hospitalization either, is there a link?? - to ur sore muscles and or lack of indurance or r these all isolated incidences happening at the same time.

But if in doubt check it out. let us know when u get to the root of it.

Good luck mate

 

[Nathan]

Hamstuffer

without getting bogged down with everthing, but to answer ur question, AS will cause ur heart to grow. But then atheletes who dont use AS also can have an enlarge heart (especially the left wentricle), most pulmonary problems lead to an increase in size of the right ventricle. In Britain we use different ways to gauge and measure tests so its difficult for me to comment on ur results, but if ur left ventricle becomes so large that it does not have the space to beat effciently then that could explain ur low EF.

And u dont say what was the cause of ur hospitalization either, is there a link?? - to ur sore muscles and or lack of indurance or r these all isolated incidences happening at the same time.

But if in doubt check it out. let us know when u get to the root of it.

Good luck mate

This is what I was going to say. Studies have shown that lifting weights alone typically causes heart enlargement. AS may make the problem a bit worse but the verdict is still out on that as far as I know - i.e. there isn't really any 100% conclusive evidence that AS cause direct enlargement of the heart. Hope that helps and good luck dude.

 

[liftsiron]

I have never compermised my health, by reusing or shareing a needle, I won't even use vet needles. My doctors have said my condition is not related to androgen use because my arteries are quite clean. Along with the flu I had streptococcus pneumoniae, which spread from my lungs to my heart, and did the suspected valve damage. It is a pisser as I to run out of gas way to soon, durning the day. I need to get this shit fixed, It's putting a damper on my lifestyle.

 

[DocTodd]

Good luck bro.......im sure you didnt use an old needle. But i felt it would be a perfect opportunity on this thread to spout my mouth off about the risks of doing it.

You would be surprised as to what some people think versus what can really happen. I see the stupidest shit in the county hospital and wonder how some of these people are still alive. We just assume some things are so obvious and noone could be so stupid to try it, but you know the saying......dont ever assume cuz it makes an ASS out of U and ME.

Ill get off my soapbox now.

T

 

[HamStuffer]

Muscleburn... Thanks for you input. I was hospitalized for severe, and I mean death door pains in my abdomen that seemed like they were going to kill me. Morphine and Demoral did not even kill the pain. Lasted for 14 hours. The lack of endurance and major sweating problem are the things driving me insane. I can get all pumped up to go the gym and then when I get there and do a few sets, I am literally already exhausted. I wish there was something out there that I could take that would just get my stamina and endurance up. I eat right and take the right amount of proteins. BTW, I have attached my echocardiogram for Liftsiron... Thanks.

 

[HamStuffer]

Picture is upside down so you can see it right side up. The echo was done from the bottom side....

 

[liftsiron]

I see your echo but I have no idea what to look for, I have no expertise in reading these. To me it looks the same as mine but could be totally different. Do get some follow up though. Doc Todd thank you for you valuable input.