Cholesterol Levels and AAS?

[Dekaxx]

I have some questions that I hope some of you Vets or ones with more knowledge than me can answer.

Say your Lipids are within normal ranges; how long after you start on a cycle does it take before your Lipids can take a turn for the worse where you can see this through blood testing?

What are some ways to maintain a healthy Lipid profile while on?

Does the amount and type of AAS have different negative effects and time frame vary to produce a negative effect on your lipid profile? Say FINA or DECA and TEST for examples.

Post cycle what are some ways to help get your lipid profile back into normal ranges in the shortest amount of time if your Lipid profile cannot be controlled during a cycle?

What are some good ways to maintain your HDL in the 40-60 range?

I would appreciate some good feedback on my questions and of course K for your answers.

 

[DIVISION]

I have some questions that I hope some of you Vets or ones with more knowledge than me can answer.

Say your Lipids are within normal ranges; how long after you start on a cycle does it take before your Lipids can take a turn for the worse where you can see this through blood testing?

What are some ways to maintain a healthy Lipid profile while on?

Does the amount and type of AAS have different negative effects and time frame vary to produce a negative effect on your lipid profile? Say FINA or DECA and TEST for examples.

Post cycle what are some ways to help get your lipid profile back into normal ranges in the shortest amount of time if your Lipid profile cannot be controlled during a cycle?

What are some good ways to maintain your HDL in the 40-60 range?

I would appreciate some good feedback on my questions and of course K for your answers.

Hard to say how long after the beginning of a cycle before LDL levels rise.

Some people have been using niacin but I can't vouch for that.

You could always have your doc write a script for one of the statin drugs: Lipitor, Zocor etc.

Also take in your EFA's to keep your HDL in the high range. You want that positive ratio.




DIV

 

[LoneTree]

Different people would react differently.
But in general, the longer you are on it, the worse would be the effect.
If you are susceptible, the higher doses would cause more adverse effect.
Anti-estrogens may be the real culprit in low HDL.
Avoid red meat. Eat a lot more fish as source of proteins.
Oat bran (and other sources of soluble fiber) and Niacin are known to help HDL cholestrol.
Lipitor is very effective medicine that is relatively safe. But it should not be taken immediately after an oral cycle.
One way you can decrease vascular damage is by keeping better than average cholestrol and HDL while you are NOT cycling.

 

[Zebo]

For what its worth, Lipitor and Zocor are your best choices. They have the least amount of muscle fatigue, pain and sides. Stay away from Crestor and Lopid!

I've damn near tried them all.....

 

[DIVISION]

For what its worth, Lipitor and Zocor are your best choices. They have the least amount of muscle fatigue, pain and sides. Stay away from Crestor and Lopid!

I've damn near tried them all.....

Muscle pain/fatigue is a rare side effect of the statin drugs, but it's VERY RARE. You're the first person I've heard of complain about muscle pain from them.

I'm taking Zocor.




DIV

 

[LoneTree]

Muscle pain/fatigue is a rare side effect of the statin drugs, but it's VERY RARE. You're the first person I've heard of complain about muscle pain from them.

I'm taking Zocor.




DIV

Switch to Lipitor, unless price and other factors are a consideration.
It has better effect on HDL.
Muscle damage is rare, and is reversible. Stop it if you see pink urine.
Muscle pain does happen. I myself get it for a few days when I start it, but it goes away in a few days. You can also start at a lower dose and then increase it after a few weeks.
Crestor may have higher risk of muscle damage, but it is also more effective and cheaper than Lipitor.

 

[Whacked]

ANY recreational bodybuilder NOT taking preventative measures to protect against the hazards of cardiovascular risk caused by gear is simply a FOOL! Nuff said.

3-5 grams of fish oil every day (on/off gear) should be a staple in every gear user's daily protocol!!

Fish Oil is the most under-rated supplement for anyone who uses gear. The benefits are just ridiculous.

Fish oil, Glucorell, NAC (liver protection), anti-ox's............year round!!!!

 

[Dekaxx]

ANY recreational bodybuilder NOT taking preventative measures to protect against the hazards of cardiovascular risk caused by gear is simply a FOOL! Nuff said.

3-5 grams of fish oil every day (on/off gear) should be a staple in every gear user's daily protocol!!

Fish Oil is the most under-rated supplement for anyone who uses gear. The benefits are just ridiculous.

Fish oil, Glucorell, NAC (liver protection), anti-ox's............year round!!!!

I am taking 5 Grams of Cod Liver Oil a day and about 10G of Flax oil for my fat intake a day at the moment.

Have any of you ever used Red Yeast Rice suppliments and if so how did they work for you?

 

[Dekaxx]

Hard to say how long after the beginning of a cycle before LDL levels rise.

Some people have been using niacin but I can't vouch for that.

You could always have your doc write a script for one of the statin drugs: Lipitor, Zocor etc.

Also take in your EFA's to keep your HDL in the high range. You want that positive ratio.




DIV

Div, do you take Lipitor while on to keep Lipids in check? I have said in another post that i have run across 2 people i have worked with that have had muscle problems from taking Lipitor but like i said in the past both these guys have probably only drove by a gym in years.

Any other side affects besides the muscle problems?

 

[DIVISION]

Div, do you take Lipitor while on to keep Lipids in check? I have said in another post that i have run across 2 people i have worked with that have had muscle problems from taking Lipitor but like i said in the past both these guys have probably only drove by a gym in years.

Any other side affects besides the muscle problems?

I'm taking Zocor, not Lipitor. I haven't had any issues with Zocor and muscle fatigue/pain. I can only speak for Zocor and my own experience, but I plan to find out more about Lipitor based on what LoneTree/Dogoftheday/Childofthenight said.

That's funny, the two guys who told you they had muscle pain as a result of Lipitor have only driven by a gym.....much less gone inside!

Other than muscle pain/fatigue, there are no real sides you should be concerned about regarding the statin drugs.




DIV

 

[Dekaxx]

I'm taking Zocor, not Lipitor. I haven't had any issues with Zocor and muscle fatigue/pain. I can only speak for Zocor and my own experience, but I plan to find out more about Lipitor based on what LoneTree/Dogoftheday/Childofthenight said.

That's funny, the two guys who told you they had muscle pain as a result of Lipitor have only driven by a gym.....much less gone inside!

Other than muscle pain/fatigue, there are no real sides you should be concerned about regarding the statin drugs.




DIV

I guess i will go ahead and let my Doc prescribe me Litpitor and see how it goes, i have a 2 month supply of Red Yeast Rice waiting at the house when i get home (3 more days) as well maybe ill get the script and hold off until i see how the natural stuff works out and have the Lipitor on hand if needed.

Do you take the Zocor when your on?

 

[DIVISION]

I guess i will go ahead and let my Doc prescribe me Litpitor and see how it goes, i have a 2 month supply of Red Yeast Rice waiting at the house when i get home (3 more days) as well maybe ill get the script and hold off until i see how the natural stuff works out and have the Lipitor on hand if needed.

Do you take the Zocor when your on?

I have Red Yeast Rice as well. What dosage are you taking? I haven't started using it, but I guess I should just to see how it works.

I take Zocor 24-7......



DIV

 

[Dekaxx]

I have Red Yeast Rice as well. What dosage are you taking? I haven't started using it, but I guess I should just to see how it works.

I take Zocor 24-7......



DIV

DIV

I haven't started with the Red Yeast Rice as of yet, from what i read it has the same active ingredient in it as Lipitor and similar drugs I believe so you might want to be careful taking that along with a prescription cholesterol lowering drug might get your Lipids too low.

I have been using a Twin Labs product called Cholesterol Success which contains the plant sterols (think i spelled that correct) and claims it can lower your Lipids 24%. I have been using it for 5 weeks now along with 45 Minutes of intense cardio 9 times a week (2 times a day on non lifting days 1 time a day on lifting days) while keeping to a strict ketosis diet and Lifting 4 times a week going 2 on 1 off 2 on 1 off repeat ill know how well it has been working when I go have my Lipid profile done again next week.

When I found out I needed to get my Lipids in check from my Doc I didn’t have time too really check my options for natural supplements and grabbed the TL product at GNC because it was the day I was heading out to work. The research I have done and all I have found out Red Yeast Rice is supposed to work the best.

I’ll get my Lipid profile redone post my before and after results and then start the RYR and then have my Lipids done again in another 5-6 weeks and see where I’m at.

 

[Dekaxx]

Ok guys the results are in.....Back in April when i posted this my Lipid panel was not good....Had i think around a 284 Total, LDL was in the 180'2 I believe and i remember specifically my HDL was 19! Not good.

I have been using Read Yeast Rice 1200 mg 2 times per day for the past 7 months and taking my EFA's, 2 times a day as well.

I had blood work done 2 weeks ago to start HRT but i do not have a copy of my Labs as of yet and im currently offshore working so when i get home ill block my personal info from the lab results and post my before and after results for my lipid profile.

I just got off the phone with my Doc and my Lipids now are...
234 Total
LDL 144
HDL 48

I think Red Yeast Rice is me new friend

 

[macrophage69alpha]

What are some good ways to maintain your HDL in the 40-60 range?

Sesamax (sesamin/episesamin)
Green Tea (high EGCG)
Fish oil (high EPA/DHA)

 

[macrophage69alpha]

more importantly these compounds significantly lower LDL and VLDL.

Fish oil lowers both HDL and LDL, lowering total cholesterol. though there are studies that indicate that it can raise HDL as well.

 

[Dekaxx]

Im oredering up some Sesamax to add to my Suppliment schedule now, i was taking quite a bit of cod liver oil suppliments until the summer months hit and dropped that because i was getting plenty of sun, my EFA's where a combination of Flax and Borage oil and some CLA thrown in for good measure.....

 

[under]

Guys can you take Zocor during an oral cycle and then stop afterwards without any problems.

 

[Dekaxx]

Im not sure on Zocor and DIV is no longer on the boards....You can take Zocor, Red Yeast Rice ect during any cycle from what i understand but getting your lipids checked before, during and after is the best way to see if what your doing is working.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Br J Nutr. 2005 Jan;93(1):131-5. Related Articles, Links


Acute administration of red yeast rice (Monascus purpureus) depletes tissue coenzyme Q(10) levels in ICR mice.

Yang HT, Lin SH, Huang SY, Chou HJ.

School of Pharmaceutical Science, Taipei Medical University, Taipei, Taiwan.

In this study, we attempted to evaluate the effect of administration of a high quantity of red yeast rice on coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10) synthesis in the tissues of ICR mice. Eighty-eight adult male ICR mice were housed and divided into control and experimental groups for red yeast rice treatment. Animals were gavaged with a low (1 g/kg body weight) or a high dose (5 g/kg body weight, approximately five times the typical recommended human dose) of red yeast rice dissolved in soyabean oil. After gavagement, animals of the control group were immediately killed; mice of the experimental groups (eight for each subgroup) were killed at different time intervals of 0.5, 1, 1.5, 4 and 24 h. The liver, heart and kidney were taken for analysis of monacolin K (liver only) and CoQ10 analysis. Liver and heart CoQ10 levels declined dramatically in both groups administered red yeast rice, especially in the high-dose group, within 30 min. After 24 h, the levels of hepatic and cardiac CoQ10 were still reduced. A similar trend was also observed in the heart, but the inhibitory effect began after 90 min. The higher dose of red yeast rice presented a greater suppressive effect than did the lower dose on tissue CoQ10 levels. In conclusion, acute red yeast rice gavage suppressed hepatic and cardiac CoQ10 levels in rodents; furthermore, the inhibitory effect was responsive to the doses administered

 

[todoveritas]

The best cholesterol and LDL lowering medication available is "Vytorin"- it's a mixture of Zocor (which limits production) and Zetia (which limits absorption from intestine). Expensive as hell but it works. The best supplement for lowering cholesterol, hands down, is 2 glasses of red wine every day. They've just completed a massive controlled double-blind study that confirms it.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

reference?

 

[Shaggy69]

The red wine post is interesting...

Also, no-one's mentioned policosanol, I thought this was proven to help lipids?

 

[Nighthawkk]

Genetic disposition and doses/duration of steroids used are probably the biggest factors, but I still don't think it warrants the use of a prescription drug to counteract the effects the AAS has on cholesterol. You are basically using one drug to combat the sides of another yet again which is probably uncecessary unless you have a history of bad cholesterol to begin with. I would almost always use a combination of policosanol, odor-controlled garlic caps, and hawthorn berry mid-through post cycle. My LDL once shot up from 156 to 202 on a 12-week sust/deca/dbol, and after just 6 weeks of 10mg policosanol ED it dropped down to 172. I'm sure had I run the herbals straight through it would have never been an issue. Cardiac health is the biggest concern for AAS users, so it would make sense to take as many precautions as possible IMO.

 

[lurcan]

Genetic disposition and doses/duration of steroids used are probably the biggest factors, but I still don't think it warrants the use of a prescription drug to counteract the effects the AAS has on cholesterol. You are basically using one drug to combat the sides of another yet again which is probably uncecessary unless you have a history of bad cholesterol to begin with. I would almost always use a combination of policosanol, odor-controlled garlic caps, and hawthorn berry mid-through post cycle. My LDL once shot up from 156 to 202 on a 12-week sust/deca/dbol, and after just 6 weeks of 10mg policosanol ED it dropped down to 172. I'm sure had I run the herbals straight through it would have never been an issue. Cardiac health is the biggest concern for AAS users, so it would make sense to take as many precautions as possible IMO.

Right on bro. All this talk about statins and shit--it's non-sense. Before I went on juice my total Cholest was 185, my triglycerides, HDL and LDL were all in a decent range, but nothing to brag about. Then I went on Tren, Test, EQ, Supderdrol, Var, OT, Arimidex and even took Proviron, so my estro was really repressed. I even stacked Var and OT. In total, I was on Tren and orals for better than 13 or 14 weeks and then I had my C checked. And guess what? My total Cholest went from 185 to 102, my trigycerides and LDL rose a bit, but nothing alarming according to my doc. The only issue was my HDL dropped pretty low.

So how did I pull this off? Red Yeast Rice, Policonisol, Co-Q10, Beta Sisterol, Niacin (1500mg ED-don't go above that cuz it can then start fucking up your Cholesterol) and cardio. According to my doc, he'd never seen an adult with a total Cholest that low (i.e., 102). And in my whole life, I've never been that low. My doc also says there isn't anything that will raise your HDL except cardio. So for now, I've dropped the orals just to raise the HDL. But I'm not going off of the juice. I'll keep up the test, do some primo, NPP and Masteron and shitload more cardio. It's not like I need a lot more cardio for anything other than HDL. I have friggin' veins popping out of my ears. Anyway, the moral of my story is fuck all those statin drugs. Good natural supps and giving yourself a break from orals once in awhile is all it takes to keep my Cholest under control. But that's just me. Good luck to you all.

 

[faaassst]

Would grape juice have the same effect on cholesterol as red wine?

 

[TheAssholeFomerlyKnownAsDBBT]

Im not sure on Zocor and DIV is no longer on the boards....You can take Zocor, Red Yeast Rice ect during any cycle from what i understand but getting your lipids checked before, during and after is the best way to see if what your doing is working.

bump for DIV as an alter

 

[njmuscleguy]

yah, I'd stay away from the RX's unless absolutely necessary.... my weapons of choice to fight cholesterol are niacin, policosanol, EFA... eat lots of fish and oats... oh, switching from arimidex to aromasin as arimidex apparently kills cholesterol levels and aromasin doesn't

 

[todoveritas]

Would grape juice have the same effect on cholesterol as red wine?

Drinking grape juice increases good cholesterol- Results of this study in the November 17 issue of the journal Arteriosclerosis, Thrombosis and Vascular Biology by researchers from Boston Med. " In addition to an increase in HDL (good cholesterol) levels,... there is a significant decrease in free radical super-oxide production, and CD40 ligand, (inflammatory markers thought to contribute to heart disease).
In layman's terms:
Grape juice is an anti-oxidant and inhibits platelet aggregation and increases HDL levels. Historically this phenomenon seen with red wine was thought to be because of the alcohol in the wine. Now they're thinking it has more to do with the polyphenolic compounds found in grape juice, as well as red (not white or blush) wine.

This was a double blind, placebo-controlled study looked at 20 subjects, mean age 63 years, diagnosed with coronary artery disease and were on standard cholesterol medications, including aspirin.

Macro, I haven't forgotten you about the most recent study which said red wine still > grape juice/fish oil/niacin/etc. but I'll have that reference soon as I find it.

 

[bilter]

if this is true then grape seed extract as a supliment should also be effective.........no?

 

[todoveritas]

if this is true then grape seed extract as a supliment should also be effective.........no?

Certainly. Grape juice extract contains high levels of proanthocyanadins and polyphenols-strong anti-oxidants that go around killing free radicals in your body. However, like every concentrated supplement, its missing the macronutrients contained in the whole food. Like whey can be used as protein, it's not quite as good as the steak itself. Same deal here: grape extract is good, but still missing alcohol and some of the other phytochemicals in the red wine and/or grape juice. The red color is due to the grape skin and my guess is that the seed extract will not have as much of the good stuff as the skin does.

 

[bilter]

Certainly. Grape juice extract contains high levels of proanthocyanadins and polyphenols-strong anti-oxidants that go around killing free radicals in your body. However, like every concentrated supplement, its missing the macronutrients contained in the whole food. Like whey can be used as protein, it's not quite as good as the steak itself. Same deal here: grape extract is good, but still missing alcohol and some of the other phytochemicals in the red wine and/or grape juice. The red color is due to the grape skin and my guess is that the seed extract will not have as much of the good stuff as the skin does.

Yes, but I always wahs down my 2000 mg of grape seed extract with 12oz of fine merlot

 

[Dekaxx]

Right on bro. All this talk about statins and shit--it's non-sense. Before I went on juice my total Cholest was 185, my triglycerides, HDL and LDL were all in a decent range, but nothing to brag about. Then I went on Tren, Test, EQ, Supderdrol, Var, OT, Arimidex and even took Proviron, so my estro was really repressed. I even stacked Var and OT. In total, I was on Tren and orals for better than 13 or 14 weeks and then I had my C checked. And guess what? My total Cholest went from 185 to 102, my trigycerides and LDL rose a bit, but nothing alarming according to my doc. The only issue was my HDL dropped pretty low.

So how did I pull this off? Red Yeast Rice, Policonisol, Co-Q10, Beta Sisterol, Niacin (1500mg ED-don't go above that cuz it can then start fucking up your Cholesterol) and cardio. According to my doc, he'd never seen an adult with a total Cholest that low (i.e., 102). And in my whole life, I've never been that low. My doc also says there isn't anything that will raise your HDL except cardio. So for now, I've dropped the orals just to raise the HDL. But I'm not going off of the juice. I'll keep up the test, do some primo, NPP and Masteron and shitload more cardio. It's not like I need a lot more cardio for anything other than HDL. I have friggin' veins popping out of my ears. Anyway, the moral of my story is fuck all those statin drugs. Good natural supps and giving yourself a break from orals once in awhile is all it takes to keep my Cholest under control. But that's just me. Good luck to you all.

Right on Bro I agree, my freaking EX doc watned to put me on Statin drugs i was like NO YOU WILL NOT! i have went the suppliments route and excercsie and things are improving for the good INCLUDING my HDL.

Another 10 days i will be home and ill post up my before and after labs.

 

[TheAssholeFomerlyKnownAsDBBT]

Right on Bro I agree, my freaking EX doc watned to put me on Statin drugs i was like NO YOU WILL NOT! i have went the suppliments route and excercsie and things are improving for the good INCLUDING my HDL.

Another 10 days i will be home and ill post up my before and after labs.

just got back from the doc, my blood results will be in next week. Cholesterol was a problem at the last blood test 6 mo. ago but that was a week after cycle ended so that i could see the levels immediately after cycle. Today's blood SHOULD be cleaner since i've been off for 6 weeks. I told my doc I had been taking policosonol and niacin and he didn't even know what policosonol was He told me to take fish oil, do cardio, eat clean (which i am NOT) and actually told me to loose some weight...i said "fat?", he said no..."muscle." So i may or may not turn into a toothpick on dr.'s orders.BTW doc has no idea i've taken AAS, but knows i lift. He said I'd live longer at a lower bodyweight.

 

[Dekaxx]

just got back from the doc, my blood results will be in next week. Cholesterol was a problem at the last blood test 6 mo. ago but that was a week after cycle ended so that i could see the levels immediately after cycle. Today's blood SHOULD be cleaner since i've been off for 6 weeks. I told my doc I had been taking policosonol and niacin and he didn't even know what policosonol was He told me to take fish oil, do cardio, eat clean (which i am NOT) and actually told me to loose some weight...i said "fat?", he said no..."muscle." So i may or may not turn into a toothpick on dr.'s orders.BTW doc has no idea i've taken AAS, but knows i lift. He said I'd live longer at a lower bodyweight.

WTF! Ok Bro first your Doc didn't even know what policosonol was! And on top of that this fucking moron told you to loose MUSCLE! Bro you seriously need to find another Doctor! I wouldn't take my Dog to see that clown!

Check this Doc out.

www.allthingsmale.com