cardio good when bulking?

[awnyerneas]

Is it a good idea to run while you are trying to bulk?

 

[tzan]

Short answer NO. If your bulking you don't want to burn excesive cals by doing cardio. However, just to stay in somewhat decent cardiovascular shape I usually run 1 day a week for 2 miles when bulking.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Tzan is on the right track. If you're doing cardio for your heart...of course it's always good. But endurance training might actually DECREASE your muscle size. Your body does this in order to make the distance between the blood vessels and the inside of the muscle fiber shorter, making oxygen transport faster.

But in general, cardio doesn't have THAT great of an effect on muscle CSA...so I say go for it.

 

[JKurz1]

I ALWAYS include cardio.........

 

[Bulldog_10]

I ALWAYS include cardio.........helps with protein synthesis as well as sanity.....daily for me..............

Actually, it sucks as far as protein synthesis goes. It increases protein degredation and decreases protein synthesis (from baseline levels). This effect can persist for up to 3 hours after exercise.

 

[bigdho]

I only throw in cardio when my bf gets around 15%. Then I just do cardio till I drop down around 10%. I never "lean out" though. I dont even have to change my diet that much. Just pop a little ephedrine into the mix and Im good to go.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

How much cardio do you do to get yourself back to 10%? What changes do you make to your diet to drop the fat a bit?

 

[JKurz1]

I still do it now at 8%............its more of a release for me than anything.........after sitting in the office all day, I got to move my legs............I could get away will adjusting my diet only.....probably.

 

[bigdho]

How much cardio do you do to get yourself back to 10%? What changes do you make to your diet to drop the fat a bit?

about 30 min frist thing before breakfast.And for the diet I watch the high glysemic carbs lower the calories a bit up the protien and throw in a diaretic.

 

[SoreArms]

Dude, when bulking, you are taking in so many excess calories, the biggest amount of which are going to be carbs. I know that it is meant to support LBM and help new muscle grow, but not all of it winds up there, alot of it will go to fat.
IMO, you need cardio while bulking to stay as lean as possible (although some fat gain will inevitable), preferably in the mornings on an empty stomach, moderate paced.

 

[awnyerneas]

I was wondering why its good to run before breakfast? and whats a good diaretic? Also If anybody can recomend a book or a website that will give me information on diet for bulking and cutting. Not just a diet somebody does but maybe a site that will explain reasoning and all the complex carbs/simple /proteins?

 

[Bulldog_10]

Dude, when bulking, you are taking in so many excess calories, the biggest amount of which are going to be carbs. I know that it is meant to support LBM and help new muscle grow, but not all of it winds up there, alot of it will go to fat.
IMO, you need cardio while bulking to stay as lean as possible (although some fat gain will inevitable), preferably in the mornings on an empty stomach, moderate paced.

Cardio after an 8 hour fast...very catabolic. Not good for bulking.

 

[psychedout]

I will never not do cardio while bulking anymore. I remember last time I bulk from 190-210 and seriously, I would be short of breath walking up a few flights of stairs.

My cardiovascular goes to shit way to fast. 1-2 15-20 minute walks on an incline do me good. I don't loose any of my cardiovascular then.

 

[Bulldog_10]

I will never not do cardio while bulking anymore. I remember last time I bulk from 190-210 and seriously, I would be short of breath walking up a few flights of stairs.

My cardiovascular goes to shit way to fast. 1-2 15-20 minute walks on an incline do me good. I don't loose any of my cardiovascular then.

I've read studies where people endurance train for 10+ years, and then get injured, and after like 2 weeks of bed rest their VO2max goes down like 50%. Then at like 6 weeks+ they're back to pre-training levels...so it's important to keep at it. It doesn't seem fair that you can work so hard for so long, and lose it so fast. Although, it is easier for those people to make those gains back.

 

[SoreArms]

Cardio after an 8 hour fast...very catabolic. Not good for bulking.

glycogen levels are low/empty when you wake on an empty stomach, so when doing moderate paced cardio (heart rate at about 40% to 60% of maximum heart rate) during this time the body will use mostly stored fat as an energy source, very little to non existent catabolic effects. Faster paced cardio will exercise VO2max, and on an empty stomach, that would be catabolic.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I think I agree with SoreArms there, but I could be wrong.

I want to do it for the cardiovascular endurance and health more than anything, but if it can aid me in fat control/loss, then I'll do it by all means. Morning 2-3x a week maybe. A brisk walk, a light run, or maybe some playful bag work. Who knows!

 

[Bulldog_10]

You oxidize BCAA's when doing cardio regardless of when the last time you ate was. If you have less glycogen, you will burn more protein...that's a fact. Cardio is catabolic enough without doing it on an empty stomach, why add to that?

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Then how would cardio be useful for burning off excess fat?

 

[Bulldog_10]

Then how would cardio be useful for burning off excess fat?

Cardio is VERY useful for burning fat. I'm just saying that, when bulking, you want to minimize muscle loss, so you shouldn't do it on an empty stomach.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Is it possible to reduce fat while gaining muscle still? In your opinion, that is.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Is it possible to reduce fat while gaining muscle still? In your opinion, that is.

It's possible...but you gotta do is slowly...really slowly. Obviously you're not gonna gain 20 pounds of muscle while losing 10 pound of fat in 3 months. It's just not feasible. If you do a good amount of cardio, and strength train hard, keeping your diet just a little above maintenance, you'll be able to do it. I say this because endurance training causes you to increase fat utilization, so over time, the cardio will start burning more and more fat...so you'll start losing the fat, and keeping the glycogen stores up, which will help with building muscle.

You just gotta plan things more carefully than the guy who simply bulks for a period of time, and then cuts.

 

[JKurz1]

I also think you need to eat first....maybe 1.5-2hours before hand...............

 

[Bulldog_10]

maybe 1.5-2hours before hand...............

Yep...that's abour right

 

[JKurz1]

What do ya say, maybe like a solid protein source (tuna, chx) and some flax? Or would you go the carb route too? Maybe even a MRP with 20g, 20g, and 4.5g of fat?

 

[Bulldog_10]

What do ya say, maybe like a solid protein source (tuna, chx) and some flax? Or would you go the carb route too? Maybe even a MRP with 20g, 20g, and 4.5g of fat?

Can't really go wrong with MRP's...but I stay away from them just because I'm gonna drink a shake right after. I try not to get two meals in a row from supps.

I usually go with a good amount of carbs and about 20-30g of protein...whatever you can handle without upsetting the stomach. Pre-workout meals have to be very individualized, because you need something you like that won't mess with your stomach during the workout.

But like I said, you want to get carbs, but you want the insulin spike gone by the time you start your workout...because if you've got insulin in your blood, you're gonna have a tough time mobilizing fat stores, and you're gonna burn carbs instead of fats. So I try to eat something somewhat high GI, so the the insulin spike comes and goes well before the workout.

But pre-workout meals are alot of trial and error, do what works for you.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Bulldog my man, if you wouldn't mind, what would you recommend someone age 17, 5'11", 2 years of training background at a weight of 180 (approx. bodyfat 15%) does to lose fat while gaining muscle mass? How many cals should I take in? Macros?

I'm a meso/endo I'm guessing. Help would be greatly appreciated. You too, JKurz. I PMed you about HST, btw bro, you never responded.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Bulldog my man, if you wouldn't mind, what would you recommend someone age 17, 5'11", 2 years of training background at a weight of 180 (approx. bodyfat 15%) does to lose fat while gaining muscle mass? How many cals should I take in? Macros?

I'm a meso/endo I'm guessing. Help would be greatly appreciated. You too, JKurz. I PMed you about HST, btw bro, you never responded.

Yeah...JK is a complete asshole! Just kidding. LOL.


Well, there's really no way for me to tell you the amount of cals you should be taking in. You need to figure out how many cals you're taking in and not gaining or losing weight...that will be your maintenance number. Then just add a couple hundred cals onto that, and you'll gain some weight. The lower the added cals, the slower it will come...but more of it will be muscle than fat.

 

[JKurz1]

my bad.......never got the notice........

 

[awnyerneas]

hey bulldog, whats a GI>?

 

[Bulldog_10]

hey bulldog, whats a GI>?

Glycemic Index. It's basically a measure of how fast your blood glucose levels rise in response to the food in question. For example, instant white rice causes the blood to be flooded quickly with glucose, causing a spike in insulin to bring it back down...so it is considered a high GI food.

 

[awnyerneas]

thanks man. Where can I go to learn about all this stuff so that I will have a good idea of how to create a good diet for myself when trying to gain strength and lose fat? thanks alot if you can help with a link or book or something. Or just general info.

 

[Bulldog_10]

thanks man. Where can I go to learn about all this stuff so that I will have a good idea of how to create a good diet for myself when trying to gain strength and lose fat? thanks alot if you can help with a link or book or something. Or just general info.

All I can say is READ READ READ. The information is out there, you just gotta look.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

You know, it's confusing sometimes. A lot of the information seems to contradict other sources. Studies prove one thing is ideal for preventing catabolism, then another suggests something else is ideal. I can't come up with specific examples, but I know I've seen it before. It's very frustrating, trying to come up with the ideal way to be healthy, fit, and deal with aesthetics all at once. I'd like to get bigger, but I don't think one needs to go through bulking/cutting phases. Maybe to become a bodybuilder, but I'm not looking to get all that big. I also don't feel one would need to count calories and macronutrients to achieve this. Wouldn't it be possible to, without stressing over it all so much, simply eat the proper food groups as recommended by the food pyramid, take your vitamins, drink water, and stay active and maintain that muscular yet slim look that seems to be ideal for a lot of people?

If so, please point me in the right direction. I'm not going to stop my little "bulking phase" for the time being, as I just started HST and I'm not planning to give up, but in the future I'd like to relieve a lot of this stress of counting calories and such, and simply eat wholesome, healthy food, train and be well-rounded, and look good. By well-rounded, I mean have size, strength, and endurance, so I can preform well in numerous areas.

 

[Bulldog_10]

You know, it's confusing sometimes. A lot of the information seems to contradict other sources. Studies prove one thing is ideal for preventing catabolism, then another suggests something else is ideal. I can't come up with specific examples, but I know I've seen it before. It's very frustrating, trying to come up with the ideal way to be healthy, fit, and deal with aesthetics all at once. I'd like to get bigger, but I don't think one needs to go through bulking/cutting phases. Maybe to become a bodybuilder, but I'm not looking to get all that big. I also don't feel one would need to count calories and macronutrients to achieve this. Wouldn't it be possible to, without stressing over it all so much, simply eat the proper food groups as recommended by the food pyramid, take your vitamins, drink water, and stay active and maintain that muscular yet slim look that seems to be ideal for a lot of people?

If so, please point me in the right direction. I'm not going to stop my little "bulking phase" for the time being, as I just started HST and I'm not planning to give up, but in the future I'd like to relieve a lot of this stress of counting calories and such, and simply eat wholesome, healthy food, train and be well-rounded, and look good. By well-rounded, I mean have size, strength, and endurance, so I can preform well in numerous areas.

Well, you could just do that...but what's the fun in that?! Seriously bro...of course you don't need to find the PERFECT number of calories for you, or the PERFECT training routine. And maybe you taking one day off every once in a while won't hurt. And maybe that last set of the day doesn't make all THAT much of a difference. But where does it stop?

The way most of us see it, is that we want to get the most out of our training, diet, and time. If you're seeing results from a subpar diet, just imagine what you would get on the PERFECT diet!

Half the fun for me is figuring out exactly what I want to do, and exactly the best way to get there.

Yes, there is alot of contradictory information out there...but you gotta weed through it on your own...we've all done it, there are no shortcuts in research, just like there are no shortcuts in training. Just read anything you can get your hands on, and figure out what works best for you. Over time, it will be like second nature to you...you'll be able to take any piece of information and chop it up and figure out what's useful for you, and what's a heap of garbage (like most things that come out of the goons on this board).

So like I said a million times, just read anything you can...try not to read too much internet bullshit (unless it has references)...try to read books, journals, texts, etc...


Happy learning bro!

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Well, I've read plenty, I just don't know where to draw the line. Say I wanted to lift weights to get bigger and stronger, and I wanted to practice Krav Maga to learn to fight better, and I wanted to hit the heavy bag and go for long walks on trails near me to keep myself busy when I'm bored and to stay active. I don't know where to draw the line for each. I don't like the idea of limiting myself from activities because it may detriment my other areas of training. Back in the day, this wasn't the case, was it? I would think staying active is always a good thing. It's almost like we put activity on lockdown after a certain point, due to possible interference with training.

 

[Bulldog_10]

Well, I've read plenty, I just don't know where to draw the line. Say I wanted to lift weights to get bigger and stronger, and I wanted to practice Krav Maga to learn to fight better, and I wanted to hit the heavy bag and go for long walks on trails near me to keep myself busy when I'm bored and to stay active. I don't know where to draw the line for each. I don't like the idea of limiting myself from activities because it may detriment my other areas of training. Back in the day, this wasn't the case, was it? I would think staying active is always a good thing. It's almost like we put activity on lockdown after a certain point, due to possible interference with training.

I see what you're saying bro...the trick is to prioritize your activities. If you want to get huge, and have no other concerns...just eat and train. If you want to be athletic...eat, train, do quickness/agility drills, etc...

Everyone has different goals, that's why you have to learn for yourself, and learn how to apply all the knowledge out there to yourself. Being educated will put you on the right track...after that alot of it is just trial and error...

 

[Tom Treutlein]

I hear ya' man. Any basic guidelines I should follow if I want to be more of an athletic type? I do want the size, but I also would like strength and agility. Nothing sport-specific, aside from fighting.

 

[Bulldog_10]

I hear ya' man. Any basic guidelines I should follow if I want to be more of an athletic type? I do want the size, but I also would like strength and agility. Nothing sport-specific, aside from fighting.

I'd pick up the "Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning." It's the basic text for S & C professionals...it gives you the basics on how to implement strength, agility and plyometric programs...also some exercises you can do. Like I said bro...the info is out there.

You can't really just ask someone else what you should do...especially someone who's never seen you, much less worked out with you.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

True, like I said, just wanted to hear some guidelines. I'll pick up that book, now that I have a nice job going for me. $110 in two days - works for me at 17, hah. Thanks a lot man, I appreciate the help. Hopefully I can achieve the goals I want.

 

[JKurz1]

True, like I said, just wanted to hear some guidelines. I'll pick up that book, now that I have a nice job going for me. $110 in two days - works for me at 17, hah. Thanks a lot man, I appreciate the help. Hopefully I can achieve the goals I want.

Hey bro...you are wayyy ahead of the game....I never started truly reading everything until I was about 22.....27 now.....I wish I would have know about this board back then...........keep at it...how is HST going? I'm sticking with 15-20 sets, 2 bp, 6-12 rep range for now........

 

[anthrax]

1 hour weights + 15 min cardio seems to work for me

 

[SoreArms]

You oxidize BCAA's when doing cardio regardless of when the last time you ate was.

This is true
People who are really concerned about this, supplement BCAA's. That could be an alternative right?

If you have less glycogen, you will burn more protein...that's a fact. Cardio is catabolic enough without doing it on an empty stomach, why add to that?

From what I understand, you will only burn protein if you do cardio at a high heart rate (excercise Vo2max). Moderate paced cardio will use stored fat.

Bulldog, this is just what I know from reading and advise. Hope you don't think that I'm just trying to argue with you. You obviously have more experience than me, so set me straight brotha.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

HST is going well as of now. I only did my 2nd workout yesterday, but already the 15's are a piece of cake. I remember Monday I wanted to cry because I felt so weak. Now I see what deconditioning does! I like to think I'm way ahead sometimes, especially when I try to compare myself to all of you guys who are 5+ years older. The thing is, I feel like by doing that I'm making excuses as to why I'm not as big as some of you guys right now, and then it riles me up and gets me going. If you ever decide you wanna try HST, ask me J - I'll give ya' all the info you need.

 

[Bulldog_10]

This is true
People who are really concerned about this, supplement BCAA's. That could be an alternative right?



From what I understand, you will only burn protein if you do cardio at a high heart rate (excercise Vo2max). Moderate paced cardio will use stored fat.

Bulldog, this is just what I know from reading and advise. Hope you don't think that I'm just trying to argue with you. You obviously have more experience than me, so set me straight brotha.

I can't tell if that's 100% sarcasm...but I'll just assume it is.

You burn protein, carbs, and fat at all times...you're never utilizing ANY one substrate at ANY particular time. During (and after) cardio, you increase protein breakdown (catabolism) and decrease protein synthesis (anabolism). I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but it's more than you might think. The combind effect of decreased synthesis and increased breakdown makes for a HIGHLY catablic situation. An 8-hour fast is also a HIGHLY catabolic situation. Why combine the two when you're trying to bulk? It makes absolutely ZERO sense.

The catabolic effects of cardio can last for up to three hours also, so you're basically setting yourself up for 12-hours of pure catabolism. Not really helping you put on muscle.


(PS, if that wasn't sarcasm...I apologize for my tone...but the message remains).

 

[Bulldog_10]

Oh...and no matter hat intensity you're at...you'll be burning an increased number of BCAA's (three in particular...I know lysine is one...not sure on the others...I'll check and get back to you.)

 

[SoreArms]

no sarcasm intended

taken from http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bobchic3.htm

The higher/harder the aerobic activity... the more energy is being used from the FIRST available source of energy... CARBS.

this guy uses "CARBS" to mean blood glucose or glycogen.

Just how does SLOW cardio actually bypass the carbs and get to the SECOND source of energy (FAT)? EASY, in laymen terms... after a few minutes of doing consistent but slow paced cardio, the body will automatically switch over to the fat stores for energy, sparing the carbs. WHY? Because your not working at a high enough level that the body needs to use it's #1 source of energy (carbs), but it has to give you something to utilize for fuel... that "something" is FAT!

This can only be achieved by getting to the fat burning stage... It's generally after about 10-15 minutes of cardio.

"This can only be achieved by getting to the fat burning stage... It's generally after about 10-15 minutes of cardio."

When you wake, liver glycogen levels are empty so we might assume that the body will use protein (muscle) to power us before we get into the fat burning stage, however, muscle glycogen is not depelted during sleep, so that is what will help us during those 10-15 mins before the body switches to fat.

(Depending on a million factors!) Some will get there a few minutes faster, some a little slower. This is why we do anywhere from 30 min to 1 hour of cardio. Variables being your conditioning, how close you are to the show, set point metabolism, etc...

Just how slow to go? I personally use the treadmill at about a 3.0 MPH pace, and the stationary bike at about 65 RPM. Remember the faster you go, the harder you work, the more CARBS will be used for fuel!

Lets assume that your in the 45 minute to 1 hour category and you still have a lot of body fat to lose. Can you exceed the 1 hour mark to burn even MORE fat? The answer is NO. Why? It seems like everything else pertaining to your bodies ability to conserve and store… that what actually happens in the post hour point, is that your body once again becomes aware that your going to extremes and attempts to conserve... this time the FAT.

Once your body has gotten to this point it goes to it's only source of energy left. PROTEIN! When this happens your basically burning MUSCLE for fuel.

This site isn't where I developed these thoughts from, just a quick article to illustrate where I am coming from on this subject. Granted, they are recommending this for fat loss/cutting and mention nothing about bulking, but I would assume the idea behind cardio is the same when cutting or bulking, keep/maintain muscle, loose fat (and you will gain fat when bulking).

 

[Bulldog_10]

The whole "low intensity burns more fat" crap is the most inane blundering I've seen sweep across teh fitness industry in quite some time.

Right now, as you sit in front of the computer, you are burning fat as your primary source of energy. Does that mean sitting in front of the computer is better for bulking or burning fat? no. People made this up so fat, lazy, old women could not work hard and still feel good about themselves.

When you're doing cardio for looks, you're concerned with one thing, and one thnig only...burning cals, whether it be from carbs or fat (not protein), it doesn't matter.

When you wake, you don't have as much circulating carbs...so you're gonna burn more fat and protein. The goal is to burn as little protein as possible, so this is counter-productive IMO.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Good call on that Bulldog. So what would be an ideal way to partake in cardio? HIIT? Low-moderate intensity later in the day?

 

[Bulldog_10]

Good call on that Bulldog. So what would be an ideal way to partake in cardio? HIIT? Low-moderate intensity later in the day?

Doesn't really matter bro...Just make sure you have some food in your stomach, and low insulin levels and you should be set. Go with the highest intensity that you can sustain for at least 20-60 minutes. The harder you work, the more benefit your heart gets, and the more calories you burn. As usual, there are no shortcuts...the harder you work, the more you get out of it.

 

[bigp3]

Me personally I like to hit the bike once or twice a week for 20 minutes because I have the ability to get fat really easily and have a slow metabolism to boot. If you are one of those guys that cant get fat no matter what than ditch the cardio for sure.

 

[Tom Treutlein]

Well, I can get fairly thick easily (but I sit inside all day on the computer, unless I'm lifting...or out at a party) so I guess I'll get in some cardio. Bike for 20 minutes at what intensity? Does that little bit alone control fat gain?

 

[bigp3]

If you don't want to lose a lot of muscle keep your cardio low intensity. I usually do the bike on a low setting and try to keep my HR around 60% of my max. 20 minutes is not really long enough to burn major amounts of fat, but that is what I do in bulking phases so it is not a biggie when I am cutting and bump up the cardio. In other words I don't have to spend 2 or 3 weeks getting into cardio shape.