Body position for bent rows?

[niasdaddy2005]

I have gotten a couple answers as to which body angle is best for Bent BB rows. Ive heard both paralel to the floor and back at a 45 degree angle. If anyone could explain the row to me i would greatly appreciate it and if you have a link to animation of it bein done great also. Thanks

 

[stevius]

The angle of attack depends upon how flexible you are: arch your back and pivot forward- as though you were doing a good morning or SLDL- until you feel your hamstrings go tight. If you require any further depth you'll have to bend at the knee.

Now bring the bar into your abdomen; the shoulder blades are best drawn together I find. Concentrate on the top part of the motion, squeezing the elbows back and into your sides. This is also the weakest part where you'll be at a mechanic disadvantage. While many people can use a lot of weight for the first part of the movement, the last part- as the bar reaches your abdomen- is usually weaker. This is something to bear in mind when monitoring your development.

 

[Protobuilder]

There are a few row videos in the member's video sticky above.

 

[H_T_]

it's like a bench press, but reversed. idk, it depends. i see clowns rowing 315 with lousy backs. i'm just glad your considering rowing, instead of waiting in line to see how much you can pull down.

 

[get456]

I kind of see two philosophies on this one... the first one says that you have to be super strict... 90 degrees with very little movement... The other one says that the more weight you can move the better... now you dont want to make ur row into a shrug, but by the same token, cheating a bit to get that extra weight can serve a different purpose.... Unless ur form turns to complete garbage, the more weight you can move the better in general

 

[Swole_2112]

90 degrees would put too much strain on your lower back. In order for you to do bent over rows at 90 degrees, you'd have to select a weight that would be so light that it would kind of defeat the purpose of this movement, that purpose being that it is a basic POWER movement. Anywhere from 45 - 60 degrees will enable you to hit the entire back very well.

 

[get456]

90 degrees would put too much strain on your lower back. In order for you to do bent over rows at 90 degrees, you'd have to select a weight that would be so light that it would kind of defeat the purpose of this movement, that purpose being that it is a basic POWER movement. Anywhere from 45 - 60 degrees will enable you to hit the entire back very well.

well MADCOW for one disagrees.... but who the heck is that dumb ass anyway HA!




What you said is just not true... if you are flexible enough you can row plenty of weight to trash your back at 90degrees... lower back pain shouldnt even be part of it... ur lower back isnt rowing the weight after all, and we arent talking about 300... 400 lbs... (for the average guy anyway)

 

[niasdaddy2005]

well MADCOW for one disagrees.... but who the heck is that dumb ass anyway HA!




What you said is just not true... if you are flexible enough you can row plenty of weight to trash your back at 90degrees... lower back pain shouldnt even be part of it... ur lower back isnt rowing the weight after all, and we arent talking about 300... 400 lbs... (for the average guy anyway)

Ok practiced my form and for me parallel to the floor seems to be easier. Any higher seems to make it hard to pull the bar into my upper abs, it seems to go towrad my lower chest. Second i seem to be able to get more squeeze across my back when parallel. But i am a little confused. I understand doin them at a 45 degree angle, but a 90 degree angle starting from parallel to the floor would be standing straight up. Please correct me if im wrong but 90 degrees is a quatrer of a 360 degree circle ( meaning a quarter circle upward from parallel is straight up.

 

[get456]

180 degrees would be standing straight up and down

90 degrees is back perfectly parallel to the floor

there is a great thread around here about rows somewhere... but im not Plat so i cant search for it

 

[niasdaddy2005]

180 degrees would be standing straight up and down

90 degrees is back perfectly parallel to the floor

there is a great thread around here about rows somewhere... but im not Plat so i cant search for it

Im not plat either, but i think i get it now. For standing straight up to be 180 degrees the starting point of the circle would be your feet. I thought the starting point was parallel to the floor, thanks.

 

[get456]

no prob... if you do rather strict 90degree rows you def will use less weight... IMO its a great way to break things up... sometimes like i said, cheating is good though, just depends on where ur at, how long u have been doing what ur doing, and what ur goals are

 

[Swole_2112]

well MADCOW for one disagrees.... but who the heck is that dumb ass anyway HA!




What you said is just not true... if you are flexible enough you can row plenty of weight to trash your back at 90degrees... lower back pain shouldnt even be part of it... ur lower back isnt rowing the weight after all, and we arent talking about 300... 400 lbs... (for the average guy anyway)

Actually, what I said is true. Consider the physics of it. The closer you bring your back to being at a 90 degree angle (or parallel with the floor), the greater the distance the load is from the small of your back (fulcrum). As the distance of the load from the fulcrum increases (even a very slight increase will suffice), the strain on the lower back increases dramatically. If one were insistent on utilizing a 90 degree angle while performing this movement, he would max out the weight the lower back would be able to endure before reaching what other back muscles would be capable of moving.

Granted, you could still do the movement at a lighter weight, but at that point why would you bother? It's a POWER movement. Not a shaping movement. It supposed to be done with heavy weight. If it's going to be done with light weight you might as well go with completely different movement all together.

Also, flexibility has little to nothing to do with it. The weight being moved and the distance of that weight from the lower back are what determines the amount of strain to the lower back. And, its true that your lower back isn't rowing the weight, but its still contracting to support the weight. What do you think? That the weight is just suspended in mid-air?

 

[get456]

I def appreciate what you are saying.

My experience is this though... lets say, for me personally 135 is what i row for 8-10 reps normally at 90degrees.... If I throw say, 50 more lbs on the bar, my lower back is just fine, doesnt fatigue and i can keep my back straight... but the problem is... i just am simply not strong enough to row that weight! So my lower back is no where near the limiting factor there. The limiting factor is the strength of the target muscle.. which is kind of the idea

I understand what you are saying, but I think you are approaching it more from the perspective of just moving more weight... vs stimulating the muscle fibers as completely as possible. Less bend at the waist = move more weight, that isnt in question... the question is what is more effective. For me, 90 degrees is working well right now and i see the best development that i have ever seen in my back, but i have changed a few other things too (more deadlifts, stricter form overall, different movements) so its hard to say if 90degrees has done antyhing specifically for me or not, but i have to hypothesize that it has.

 

[Swole_2112]

I def appreciate what you are saying.

My experience is this though... lets say, for me personally 135 is what i row for 8-10 reps normally at 90degrees.... If I throw say, 50 more lbs on the bar, my lower back is just fine, doesnt fatigue and i can keep my back straight... but the problem is... i just am simply not strong enough to row that weight! So my lower back is no where near the limiting factor there. The limiting factor is the strength of the target muscle.. which is kind of the idea

I understand what you are saying, but I think you are approaching it more from the perspective of just moving more weight... vs stimulating the muscle fibers as completely as possible. Less bend at the waist = move more weight, that isnt in question... the question is what is more effective. For me, 90 degrees is working well right now and i see the best development that i have ever seen in my back, but i have changed a few other things too (more deadlifts, stricter form overall, different movements) so its hard to say if 90degrees has done antyhing specifically for me or not, but i have to hypothesize that it has.

That's the biggest problem with hypothesese in the gym, one's wokout is not an experiment and the gym is not a laboratory environment. Because there are so many factors involved, it's difficult to say exactly what was the factor responsible for the result. Odds are that it's not just a single factor.

I'm not simply talking about moving the weight, I consider form to be of critical importance. My opinion is that holding one's posture at a 90 degree angle doesn't enable one to move as much weight as they would be capable at a 45 - 60 degree angle. This being because of the limitations of the lower back. You say that your upper back is not strong enough to lift more than 135 on the bent over row (and I believe you know what you are capable of), however, if the strength of your upper back were to continuously increase, you would find that it would surpass that weight which your lower back is capable of supporting.

 

[liegelord]

Obviously rows done at 90 degrees requires a strong lower back. I don't think there are many people who can row more than 50% of their deadlift though. Your lower back should be more than able to handle rows less than 50% of your deadlift. I deadlift 500 and do Pendlay rows with 240 3x5 with no strain on my lower back at all.

 

[get456]

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366601

there ya go kids... enjoy

 

[Madcow2]

90 degrees would put too much strain on your lower back. In order for you to do bent over rows at 90 degrees, you'd have to select a weight that would be so light that it would kind of defeat the purpose of this movement, that purpose being that it is a basic POWER movement. Anywhere from 45 - 60 degrees will enable you to hit the entire back very well.

I think you need a stronger posterior chain. Plenty of people using a lot of weight rowing parallel. I assume you row for lat and general back development (i.e. power vs. shaping or whatever that means), EMG will reveal supperior lat activation if performed correctly.

Now certainly if you stand more upright, get a bit of momentum going, and cut some range of motion you are in a much stronger position to handle heavier weight (you are basically in the hang position). Well there's some issue there in that to try to perform a row at that angle you need your biceps to bring the bar in toward the body (gravity is down and the lats are pulling back - you need to bis to get them engaged and simulate a row since the line of gravity toward the lat is butchered by a significantly vertical torso). Now here's what you have, a lot of weight, some momentum and the requirement of the biceps to work in the chain to enable a simulated row, and this is where you rip a bi (think Dorian - these are not big muscles and they are directly in harms way) or just grossly limit the amount of weight you can handle by putting them in as the weak link in the chain. Better to do dynamic pulls from the hang and use truly heavy weight correctly in that range of motion without being limited by the biceps or putting them in the position of tearing in a heavy cheat row.

That's my opinion anyway. You want to row, then row. If your lower back can't handle the weight you can row, you have a weakness to address. If you want to do a more vertical pull and handle more weight, then do some real pulling and don't try to make it into a row (more weight and less chance of injury).

Here's Glenn's old row post. Mechanics, EMG, weights used by various people.

Rows: Well, the best way to do them is to start with the bar on the floor every single rep. Your middle back will have slight bend to it. You pull the bar off the floor quickly with the arms, and by a powerful arch of your middle back. You finish by touching the bar to your upper stomach or middle stomach. At no time is there any movement of the hips or knees, no hip extension at all, all that bends is the middle back and the shoulders and elbows.

This is hard to do and you have to have good muscular control to do it, or you'll end up straightening up at the hips along with the arching of the back. But if you can master doing them this way you will get a big back. This works because the lats actually extend (arch) the middle back in addition to other functions, just like with glute-ham extensions compared to leg curls…you always get a stronger contraction when you move both the origin and insertion of a muscle, flexing it from both ends so to speak.

The bar returns to the floor after each rep. The bent row is actually best done as an explosive movement and the bar is moved fast. I have trained many people who could do this exercise with 350 or more lbs. I myself have done reps with 425, Ed Coan, who also knows how to do them properly, has done reps with over 500lbs without his back ever coming above parallel with the ground. That is stronger than Dorian Yates or Ronnie Coleman, by the way.

I did rows with Coleman once, actually, and I was far stronger than he was. He could not do more than 350lbs strictly although he could do over 500lbs by standing almost all the way up at the completion of each rep. Ed Coan is probably the strongest person on these, although one power-lifter I trained did manage 525 for a double done strictly.

Rows look at an anatomy chart. if the scapula and upper arms are held in a constant position, shortening of the lats WILL result in arching of the middle and upper back. i AM NOT saying that the lats are primarily responsible for upper back flexion... what i am saying is that they can assist in this.

i also HAVE done EMG work on various different rowing techniques... and there is not doubt that rows performed as i describe them will activate the lats more completely than done any other way i have ever seen. i have done EMG work on a large quantity of people for rows... and ive always found that these kind of rows activate the lats most completely. and besides, even if you dont buy the fact that they activate the lats better, hell, you can always be content with the fact that your getting an erector workout.

 

[Protobuilder]

Another thought re: lower back strength limiting your row . . . When we're talking 90 degree rows, we're not talking about standing w/ your legs straight, your back forming a perfect 90 degree angle to your legs, and then slowly and methodically rowing the bar. When we talk 90 degree rows (JS rows, Glenn Pendlay rows, whatever you call 'em), we're talking an explosive variation where your ENTIRE posterior chain locks your hips and back in place and it's really a power movement w/ a strong, fast contraction at the top as you arch the upper/mid back.

When you're in the "ready" position on these rows, the weight will NOT be transferred just to your lower back muscles. Your glutes and hams will be firing like mad to hold you steady. When you've got the entire posterior chain holding you steady, you're in a relatively safe position and capable of rowing a good deal of weight.