Best AI/Anti E & dosages

[hannes joubert]

Hi All, this relates to my other post regarding my TRT, but I would like to get focussed replies to this question as I asked so many other questions in that post as well.

I am currently doing TRT with 300mg Test E with 250iu hCG week, but would like to add an AI/Anti E to the TRT regimine as well.

First off, is adding this a good idea? If so, which should I do, AI or Anit E (or are they the same thing?)

What could you recommend to take and at what dosages, frequency? (260lb's, 5'11" 28% b/f, with the TRT schedule above?)

Thanks to all in advance

Cheers

H

 

[Zyglamail]

Whats you current E levels at? That will determine how much, if any anti_e is needed.

 

[Older Guy]

For the record....you are on a cycle not TRT As for the AI, take Arimidex.....I'm guessing your estradiol levels are through the roof taking that much Test. Definitely get your labs done ASAP. General rule with Arimidex for TRT is 1mg. Arimidex per week per 100mg of Test. So in your case 3mg/wk spread out.......use a pill cutter or get the liquid version.

You are definitely not on TRT Bro.......100-150/wk is TRT dosages. AND you better get on the AI or you are going to start to feel like shit, fast!
Labs....get em done! Please post your results.

 

[Zyglamail]

You are definitely not on TRT Bro.......100-150/wk is TRT dosages.

Not true at all. You will find many many guys here on more than 150mg/wk. For many 150mg/wk wont even get you mid range on labs.

The whole point of TRT for many is to overcome the mental side effects of low T and this for many takes doses more than 200mg/wk.

Your typical gen practitioner or endo treats the numbers and not the symptoms. A HRT/TRT specialist treats for symptoms and doesnt care about the lab numbers of your total and free T. They know that many people in good health with good labs who exercise regularly, avoid alcohol and eat a clean diet can take as much as 400mg/wk and still have very healthy lab results.

 

[Older Guy]

I think this guy's problem is high E which is nullifying the effect of the Test. Let's see some labs and then we can make a better call. My guess is once he gets his E in check, he wil not only feel a lot better but also need less Test. He is taking a lot of HCG as well......why so much? I personally take 25iu every other day (same day as my Test shot) Both done sub q.

 

[Zyglamail]

How does high E nullify the effect of test? E can be created in adipose tissue and one of the reasons people with low test retain fat. Since low test means low E from aromatization the body tries to elevate E by retaining more fat. E is not the enemy, a high E to low test ratio is which is often the case in folks with low test.

Now high SHBG can bind to T thereby lowering the free T so less is available to bind to the receptor and often times folks who dont respond to AAS well have high SHBG.

250IU hcg isnt high at all, one of the best known and most well respected TRT docs recommends 2x 250IU weekly injections in conjunction with TRT, 1 inj taken 2 days before and then 1 inj the day before a test injection. The timing is to help give a natty test boost just before the test kicks in.

 

[Older Guy]

[FONT=&quot]There are basically two reasons we care about estradiol.

The first is that E2 is a powerful testosterone receptor antagonist. What this means is that estradiol binds to androgen receptors and renders them useless. When testosterone binds to an androgen receptor, it activates the receptor and you get the effect you're looking for. When estradiol binds to that receptor, it blocks testosterone from binding, yet it does not active the receptor, so nothing happens.

This means that if your estradiol is high, no matter how much testosterone you have, it isn't helping you as it should because too many of your androgen receptors are blocked by estradiol and your free testosterone has no where to go. Testosterone can't do you any good if it doesn't have receptors available to activate.

It can even get worse... because high levels of estradiol can cause the downregulation of androgen receptors. This means that your body may respond to higher levels of estradiol by creating fewer androgen receptors as cells are replaced in normal regeneration. In other words, not only does estradiol block the available androgen receptors, it causes your body to produce fewer of them in the future! This is one reason why raising testosterone levels may not have any immediate effect. It may be that your receptors have downregulated and so you'll need to lower estradiol and increase testosterone in order to get your body to upregulate again and this takes time.

The second reason we care about estradiol is that you also have estrogen receptors and estradiol binds to them and causes them to activate. This is fine if you want to grow man boobs, store fat on your belly, and have an enlarged prostate, but not so good if you want to look and feel like a man[/FONT]

 

[Older Guy]

Regarding the HCG....I made a mistake my apologies. I take 250iu every other day so just under 900iu/wk
This guy apparently should be using more HCG IMO.........whether it's Crisler or other TRT Docs recommending, it seems too low.

*If one has a 10,000 IU vial of HCG, and one adds 10 cc of bacteriostatic water, then one will get 1,000 IU per 1 ml solution. The insulin syringes can be marked for 100 U per 1 ml syringe.

Getting 250 IU then would require using a volume of 0.25 ml or 25 IU.

​

 

[Zyglamail]

Sorry, I dont consider a t-nation forum post as gospel in regards to receptors and hormone binding. Spend some time on medline researching the androgen receptor (ie NR3C4) and the estrogen receptor (ie ER and GPER). While ER{alpha}has been shown to mediate carcinoma, ERß has shown to be involved in the suppression of prostatic malignancy. Testosterone has also been shown to promote cancer. Its not as simple as Test is good and Estrogen is bad.

Regarding the hcg....I made a mistake my apologies. I take 250iu every other day so just under 900iu/wk
This guy apparently should be using more hcg IMO.........whether it's Crisler or other TRT Docs recommending, it seems too low.

*If one has a 10,000 IU vial of hcg, and one adds 10 cc of bacteriostatic water, then one will get 1,000 IU per 1 ml solution. The insulin syringes can be marked for 100 U per 1 ml syringe.

Getting 250 IU then would require using a volume of 0.25 ml or 25 IU.

HCG during trt is not required. Many docs who treat for lab numbers dont prescribe it at all. Its usually only TRT docs that prescribe it. As for the dosage I dont think 900IU a week is going to hurt but I also dont think its needed. Crislers recommended doses and dosing plan are based on a single test injection 1x a week and the 2x days of HCG give a natural boost in T just as the previous exo dose of T is fading resulting in a fairly steady level of T in the system. taking HCG every other day is not going to give the same effect where the goal is to maintain fairly consistent blood levels of T but likely will give you more of a natural test kick than 2x 250IU hcg applications which may allow you to get by with less exo test. That will be subject to the individual however, some guys with low test even when being prodded by HCG wont produce significant amounts of additional test and where the blood work comes into play.

 

[Older Guy]

From personal experience and my personal labs test I can definitively say that when I started the AI I felt better. I went 8 months on Test alone and my monthly labs were showing progressively higher E levels. I began to feel sluggish, libido wasn't as good and my sleep was affected negatively. Since adding arimidex as doses I described, everything is much better and my E levels are back to what many consider to be the "sweet spot"

The HCG did not have any miraculous affect on me aside from bringing some plump back to the fellas. I know Crisler says many of his patients feel better (for unknown) reasons when they start HCG but I can't say that was the case for me. Esthetically, I like having normal size testicles. AND I treat the HCG as insurance since many Docs are prescribing it, there provably is something good about it.

Crisler's 2 times a week injections (again from personal experience) cause my Test levels to fluctuate too much....every other day and sub Q works better for me and a lot of others on TRT.

I do agree with you wholeheartedly that you should treat the symptoms and not the lab results/tests.

 

[Zyglamail]

Dont get me wrong, im not saying he shouldnt use an AI, just saying how much will depend on his E levels. If his natty E levels are low he is on 300mg/wk test he may want to use .5mg 3x a week. If his E levels are high he may want to go 1mg 3x a week. Too low E can be detrimental, just like too much can be. We have told the OP in other threads to get some blood work done.

 

[XMAN.]

well i sure do love an interesting debate.
hey zyg what's ur opinion about what olderguy said about E2 being a test receptor antagonist and cause downregulation, can a chronic high E2 make high test unuseful, to what extent is that true.
i appreciate if can u post some links involving research studies about this issue.

 

[Zyglamail]

well i sure do love an interesting debate.
hey zyg what's ur opinion about what olderguy said about E2 being a test receptor antagonist and cause downregulation, can a chronic high E2 make high test unuseful, to what extent is that true.
i appreciate if can u post some links involving research studies about this issue.

His comments where a cut and paste from a t-nation thread, one that, like many threads jumps to a lot of conclusions. However, correlation does not equal causation. Its been a while since I did some serious digging and reading on receptors but from what I recall test and estradiol use completely different receptors so unless someone can show more than some T-nation forum ramblings I dont buy it at all.

Lets look at things logically for a second, even IF Estradiol competed for the androgen receptor, for men, typical E lab range is like 7 to 42 where as serum test is 300-900 (some labs as high as 1100).

We are talking about trt doses in the 300mg/wk range which has shown to put serum T around 1300. Most folks who have E thats on the high end of normal usually its due to high bodyfat. Which seems to follow suite here with the OP at 28%.

Now, lets say the OP's T is on the low end at 300 and his E is at the high end. say 40.

Now the op starts 300mg/wk test and his E gets up to say 75 while his T goes up to 1300, can anyone honestly say that say an extra 35pts of E is going to nullify 600 points of T? I seriously doubt it. Could it have some negative impact? Sure but I think the original author of the post that was copied was reaching at straws and overstating the negative effects of E.

Is E of 75 high? Sure, probably a bit higher than you would want it but it certainly isnt going to make your 300mg/wk test worthless.

check out this abstract when you have a second.

http://www.eje-online.org/cgi/content/abstract/162/4/737

hard to draw any real conclusions since you cant read the full study but it certainly shows that one cant simply say E is bad.

 

[hannes joubert]

Hi all, sorry for being AWOL....

It is my understanding that males do need some E circulating, that's why full suppression is never a good idea? I have decided to add Nolvadex for 30 days to see what the effects will be. Since it acts fast, I should notice the difference pretty quickly, if not satisfied then AI will be the next step.

What works for one may not necessarily work for another, but, thanks for the guidelines so far. Bloods will be done within this month of Jan

Cheers
H

 

[Like_a_Weed]

Why not try formastanzol? I'm no expert on trt but from what ive read it may be perfect. Plus you can order it online and have it to your house in a few days, pretty cheap too.

 

[Zyglamail]

Hi all, sorry for being AWOL....

It is my understanding that males do need some E circulating, that's why full suppression is never a good idea? I have decided to add Nolvadex for 30 days to see what the effects will be. Since it acts fast, I should notice the difference pretty quickly, if not satisfied then AI will be the next step.

What works for one may not necessarily work for another, but, thanks for the guidelines so far. Bloods will be done within this month of Jan

Cheers
H

Correct, we do need some E. Ideally you should know where your E is pre trt and after being on trt for say 10 weeks and take anastrzole/letrozole accordingly.

Nolve (or clomid) in my book are not anti-e's they are just E blockers. Great to have on hand in case of an emergency but they dont actually prevent excessive E from being created.

 

[hannes joubert]

But they will prevent the sides of excessive E, correct? Already suppresing T, don't want to over do it

 

[caribeman]

hannes, I would go with Arimidex/Anastrozole if needed but as mentioned above it would be better to get a blood test before hand. Here is my experience, I was doing 1 shot of Test Cyp 200mg/ml per week with 1 mg of Anaztrozole. I just got my blood test and my E was at 56 which is way higher than I would like it to be. So now I up the dose to 2.5mg of anastrozole per week and will test again in 60 days. Based on the results of the next blood test I will decide to either stay where I am at or go with something else. I would not want to use Letro as we do need some E in our bodies. Again, blood test and adjust based on results.

 

[XMAN.]

His comments where a cut and paste from a t-nation thread, one that, like many threads jumps to a lot of conclusions. However, correlation does not equal causation. Its been a while since I did some serious digging and reading on receptors but from what I recall test and estradiol use completely different receptors so unless someone can show more than some T-nation forum ramblings I dont buy it at all.

Lets look at things logically for a second, even IF Estradiol competed for the androgen receptor, for men, typical E lab range is like 7 to 42 where as serum test is 300-900 (some labs as high as 1100).

We are talking about trt doses in the 300mg/wk range which has shown to put serum T around 1300. Most folks who have E thats on the high end of normal usually its due to high bodyfat. Which seems to follow suite here with the OP at 28%.

Now, lets say the OP's T is on the low end at 300 and his E is at the high end. say 40.

Now the op starts 300mg/wk test and his E gets up to say 75 while his T goes up to 1300, can anyone honestly say that say an extra 35pts of E is going to nullify 600 points of T? I seriously doubt it. Could it have some negative impact? Sure but I think the original author of the post that was copied was reaching at straws and overstating the negative effects of E.

Is E of 75 high? Sure, probably a bit higher than you would want it but it certainly isnt going to make your 300mg/wk test worthless.

check out this abstract when you have a second.

Serum estradiol is associated with lean mass in elderly Swedish men -- Vandenput et al. 162 (4): 737 -- European Journal of Endocrinology

hard to draw any real conclusions since you cant read the full study but it certainly shows that one cant simply say E is bad.

thx Zyg , like usual crystal clear

 

[hannes joubert]

Hi All, have done some research regarding what AI's are available in my neck of the woods, and their respective dosages...

Wow, the stuff here is pretty potent and either in liquid or capsule form, so dosing at the levels recommended above becomes an issue.

Eg: Anastrozole @2mg/ml ‐15ml

Or

Exemestane (Aromasin) ‐20mg ‐30 Caps

I may be able to dose the liquid correctly, but not sure...

Nobody has mentioned what the effects of the Nolvadex would be, or why it is second choice to an AI? Any remarks on that?​

 

[Zyglamail]

Nobody has mentioned what the effects of the Nolvadex would be, or why it is second choice to an AI? Any remarks on that?

As mentioned, nolva just blocks the E receptor it doesnt prevent boat loads of E from floating around in your system. So can nolva prevent E sides? Sure it can but when test is aromatized it converted to E thereby losing some of the test to begin with.

E also has a feedback mechanism so high levels of E in the system can potentially reduce the effects of HCG if you are trying to get the testes to kick in a little here in there.

Overall, nolva/clomid is not the desired product.

 

[hannes joubert]

Okay, thanks Z. Will try this for a month (seeing as I already have ordered it) and then after that I will try out an AI?? How does Letrozole rate? I can source it at 5mg/ml in 15ml...

 

[Zyglamail]

Okay, thanks Z. Will try this for a month (seeing as I already have ordered it) and then after that I will try out an AI?? How does Letrozole rate? I can source it at 5mg/ml in 15ml...

Letrozole, anastrozole and fermastane are all in the same class. How well you like one over the others usually boils down to personal preference.

 

[caribeman]

Letrozole, anastrozole and fermastane are all in the same class. How well you like one over the others usually boils down to personal preference.

I thought Letro will almost elimiate all estrogen compared to anastrozole... I;ve been told to go with Anastrozole or aromasin but to avoid Letro.... Comments on this please

 

[XMAN.]

I thought Letro will almost elimiate all estrogen compared to anastrozole... I;ve been told to go with Anastrozole or aromasin but to avoid Letro.... Comments on this please

letro is the strongest then comes aromasin and last is adex, and u can benefit from all of them just experiment with dosages start with a low dose and go gradual with each till u can find ur sweet spot. of course u need less letro than aromasin or adex.
on tab of letro 2.5mg is stronger than 1 tab of aromasin 25mg which in turn is strongest than 1 tab of adex 1mg.
in my case i don't use more than a tab of letro per week divided in 2 half doses, with aromasin i can go with 1.5 tab (12.5mg x3 time/w) and adex i can go easily with 2 tabs per weeks (divide in halves) with my hrt test dose of 250mg/w

 

[caribeman]

I can tell you that 1 tab of ana per week with 200mg of Test doesnt do much for my estrogen. Last I checked with a blood test my E was at 56 with the above mentioned. So I've upped my dosage and will recheck. depending on the result I may go with aromasin next time.

 

[XMAN.]

I can tell you that 1 tab of ana per week with 200mg of Test doesnt do much for my estrogen. Last I checked with a blood test my E was at 56 with the above mentioned. So I've upped my dosage and will recheck. depending on the result I may go with aromasin next time.

i think u'll be good on 0.5mg adex/eod

 

[Zyglamail]

I can tell you that 1 tab of ana per week with 200mg of Test doesnt do much for my estrogen. Last I checked with a blood test my E was at 56 with the above mentioned. So I've upped my dosage and will recheck. depending on the result I may go with aromasin next time.

ana doesnt have a long half life like test C or E. You take it and withing 12 hours or so that dose has done what it can. Mean while you have test being released over days and when it is there is no ana in your system to do anything. ana isnt meant o be taken once a week.

 

[caribeman]

Actually by Doc's recommendatio it was scheduled at one time per week. Now I am taking .5mg everyday and will recheck at the end of February.