Barry Bonds--The Best Player Ever?

[Zerxes]

Im watching SpotsCenter right now & I just saw that Bonds broke his own record for number of walks in a season last night. Given the fact that this dude might get close to 200 walks this year, and is still hitting .365 w/ 44 HR's and over 100 RBIs, would you consider him as the best player ever? I doubt that Mays or Aaron got pitched around that much in their heyday, just because the attitude of the players at the time was different, and the pitching was better overall as the mound was higher. Any thoughts?

 

[manny78]

Best player ? Dunno. But we must admit he has almost everything a baseball player could have.

 

[alien amp pharm]

Well he is a good baseball player. I wouldn't say the best ever though.

I can't stand the man personally. Sure he may be good at playing baseball, but to me he's a prick. Everybody likes him, and for what reason? -just becasue he can hit a baseball? Makes no sense to me.

 

[troybday]

He is pretty damn good. Not sure about being the best, but his numbers are incredible. I'd say if he breaks the all-time home run record, he'll be considered the best ever...

BTW, ya...he never did steriods!!!

 

[manny78]

Well he is a good baseball player. I wouldn't say the best ever though.

I can't stand the man personally. Sure he may be good at playing baseball, but to me he's a prick. Everybody likes him, and for what reason? -just becasue he can hit a baseball? Makes no sense to me.

so you think the rest are gentlemen ? Let me give you an example. Everybody think Wayne Gretzky was a gentlemen but in real life the guy was a jerk. Yeah Bonds he's a prick but when you coach a baseball team the only thing you want is: to keep your job and the best way to do it is to win.

 

[PoyeBoy]

Bonds is one of the best, just think of what he could do if they threw him some good pitches, or if he played back in the day.

 

[alien amp pharm]

No I don't think other sports stars are gentlemen. I believe that anytime you give someone money and fame, they can very easily become arrogant, stuck-up pricks.

Not that this thread is praising Bonds as I have seen some people do - I was just making a point that some people tend to "worship" people in such positions as Barry Bonds which I think is ridiculous.

I am just ranting because this thread isn't about that anyways, so I'll drop that topic.

Back to his ballpaying - I'd much rather have someone like Nomar Garciaparria (sp.?). The guy is consistently a great hitter and his defense is superior, unlike Bonds'.

 

[spentagn]

Back to his ballpaying - I'd much rather have someone like Nomar Garciparria (sp.?). The guy is consistently a great hitter and his defense is superior, unlike Bonds'.

And how is this unlike Bonds?

 

[troybday]

I'd much rather have someone like Nomar Garciparria (sp.?). The guy is consistently a great hitter and his defense is superior, unlike Bonds'. [/B]

You bastard, you stole the words right out of my mouth. NOMAR is the man, even though his number's aren't that great this year, the guy's a stud...well said AAP

 

[alien amp pharm]

And how is this unlike Bonds?

Bonds' defense is only average.

Some credit to Bonds though, he does increase attendance and misc. sales. Money is what it's all about anymore.

 

[spentagn]

Bonds' defense is only average.

Some credit to Bonds though, he does increase attendance and misc. sales. Money is what it's all about anymore.

8 golden gloves is average?

 

[Fonz]

8 golden gloves is average?

Yeah. LOL

I was about to say that.

Fonz

 

[alien amp pharm]

8 golden gloves is average?

Way overratted.
Outfield is a joke. Anyone can catch a flyball and/or linedrive. Bonds simply isn't all that versitle and agile IMO.
He is a media and fan favorite and that's how one gets 8 golden gloves for a mediocre performance defensively.

Infield is a difficult place to play. If your going to give golden goles to outfielders at least make sure they deserve it (Andrew Jones for example).

Ok , I'm through. I didn't mean to start a Barry Bonds flame war. You guys have your opinion of him and I have mine.

Peace.

 

[bigguns7]

Bonds is one of the best, just think of what he could do if they threw him some good pitches, or if he played back in the day.

If he played back in the day he wouldn't have been on juice 8 months out of the year, and thus would not be jacking all those homers.

 

[spentagn]

I don't see anyone having a flame war, but ok.

Bonds' speed is his greatest attribute in the outfield, and not everyone can catch a fly ball.

Still, A-Rod is the fucking man, even though he plays on that shit hole team.

 

[Fonz]

I don't see anyone having a flame war, but ok.

Bonds' speed is his greatest attribute in the outfield, and not everyone can catch a fly ball.

Still, A-Rod is the fucking man, even though he plays on that shit hole team.

True. But the dipshitt GM of Texas paid WAY TOO much for him.

Fonz

 

[Zerxes]

If he played back in the day he wouldn't have been on juice 8 months out of the year, and thus would not be jacking all those homers.

Totally irrellevant brother! What does taking Steroids have to do with hitting a homerun anyhow?! Have you ever swung a baseball bat, or a golfclub? Because you would know(if you had) that it is all form & timing. He is just as big as last year btw, and is 30 HRs off last years record. Maybe the guy is just that damn good eh?! Why do people always have to make excuses for individuals standing out?! Just to create controversy? Why didnt anyone question as to why Babe Ruth jacked 40, 50, & 60 HRs in a season, when the most anyone had hit up until then was like 20 eh?! Was he juicing too?! I guess that Bathtub Alcohol that he was pounding down in the 1920's must have been laced with some Test eh?! You can be as big as a house man, but if you dont have form & timing, that ball aint goin nowhere.

 

[Fonz]

Totally irrellevant brother! What does taking Steroids have to do with hitting a homerun anyhow?! Have you ever swung a baseball bat, or a golfclub? Because you would know(if you had) that it is all form & timing. He is just as big as last year btw, and is 30 HRs off last years record. Maybe the guy is just that damn good eh?! Why do people always have to make excuses for individuals standing out?! Just to create controversy? Why didnt anyone question as to why Babe Ruth jacked 40, 50, & 60 HRs in a season eh?! I guess that Bathtub Alcohol that he was pounding down in the 1920's must have been laced with some Test eh?!

Yeah. Babe Ruth was pudgy as hell.

Fonz

 

[manny78]

I heard Babe Ruth was among the first to use Test suspension, but since they had no Anti-E he was bloating like hell.........lol

 

[troybday]

I disagree about the juice not benefiting Bonds. Yes hitting a baseball is all about timing and coordination(sp), but in bonds case for home-runs, that extra power turns a routine fly ball to the warning track into a 440 shot into the stands.

 

[alien amp pharm]

Totally irrellevant brother! What does taking Steroids have to do with hitting a homerun anyhow?! Have you ever swung a baseball bat, or a golfclub? Because you would know(if you had) that it is all form & timing. He is just as big as last year btw, and is 30 HRs off last years record. Maybe the guy is just that damn good eh?! Why do people always have to make excuses for individuals standing out?! Just to create controversy? Why didnt anyone question as to why Babe Ruth jacked 40, 50, & 60 HRs in a season, when the most anyone had hit up until then was like 20 eh?! Was he juicing too?! I guess that Bathtub Alcohol that he was pounding down in the 1920's must have been laced with some Test eh?! You can be as big as a house man, but if you dont have form & timing, that ball aint goin nowhere.

There is some truth to that, but not entirely.
I play softball. I have always had a good swing prob. from playing baseball growing up.

Last year I hit one homerun. That's right only one.
This year I have hit 7 and we're only half way thru the season.
Last year was before juice, this year is during/after.
So juicing/added size does increase power and distance one can hit a ball further.

In fairness, though, I partially agree with what you said. I have seen small guys drive the ball far in golf. And very occasionally hit a baseball/softball fairly far.

 

[Zerxes]

I disagree about the juice not benefiting Bonds. Yes hitting a baseball is all about timing and coordination(sp), but in bonds case for home-runs, that extra power turns a routine fly ball to the warning track into a 440 shot into the stands.

That is the biggest crock of shit I've heard so far today bro. No offense, but you are buying into the medias version of why todays players are so good. Plain & friggin simple--If you dont hit the ball on the sweet-spot of the Bat, and at the right time, the ball aint going anywhere. If the juice is causing routine fly balls to go 440 feet(like you say), then why is he still hitting popouts then?? By your own logic, everything the fucker hits into the air is flying out of the Park. Wrong.

Let's just say for a minute that the ball is travelling further for some reason nowadays though k? That would have(imho)everything to do with Bats being corked(to create a larger sweetspot), or that the Balls are being wound tighter than a friggin Golfball, rather than guys taking gear.

 

[bigguns7]

Totally irrellevant brother! What does taking Steroids have to do with hitting a homerun anyhow?! Have you ever swung a baseball bat, or a golfclub? Because you would know(if you had) that it is all form & timing. He is just as big as last year btw, and is 30 HRs off last years record. Maybe the guy is just that damn good eh?!

Yes I've swung a baseball bat. Have you? Do you think weight training and supplements has no impact on how far you hit a ball? If you do, you're sadly mistaken.

Let's look at one example - Bret Boone.

Bret has always been a good contact hitter, averaged around 15 or so homeruns a year since 1992. He's always had the timing and the talent. Now, let's look what happened in 2001. He picked up about 25 pounds, his forearms were the 15" around, and guess what?

Turned in the finest offensive season in history by an AL second baseman, posting career-highs in virtually all offensive categories...set the AL record for most home runs (36) and RBI (141) by a second baseman...became the first AL second baseman in history to bat .300 or better with 30-plus home runs...led the AL in RBI...was second in the Majors with 65 multi-hit games...

Hmm. Did weight-training and (most likely) steroids have anything to do with that? I doubt it.

Let's take another example, Ken Griffey Jr. Now, before you jump to more ridiculous conclusions, I'm not going to attribute jr's succes to roids. But what everyone does attribute his success to is bat speed. He uses a relatively light bat, and he has one of the fastest swings in the majors. He hits hella homeruns.

Now are you going to tell me that one cannot dramatically increase bat speed by taking steroids and gaining shoulder, forearm, and wrist strength? I know you're not going to tell me that. Don't try to argue with me on this one, because you will lose.

 

[bigguns7]

Plain & friggin simple--If you dont hit the ball on the sweet-spot of the Bat, and at the right time, the ball aint going anywhere.

Wrong again. Ever seen Gary Sheffield hit a ball at his ankles out of the park with one hand? I have.

Ever seen Cecil Fielder break his bat and still get the ball out of the park? I have.

I could go on and on, but whatever I say you'll dismiss as media hype, so i'll let it go. But I can tell you this, you don't know jack shit about baseball. And you're naive to think that steroids don't have an affect on a player's ability to perform.

 

[troybday]

That is the biggest crock of shit I've heard so far today bro. No offense, but you are buying into the medias version of why todays players are so good. Plain & friggin simple--If you dont hit the ball on the sweet-spot of the Bat, and at the right time, the ball aint going anywhere. If the juice is causing routine fly balls to go 440 feet(like you say:rolleyes), then why is he still hitting popouts then?? By your own logic, everything the fucker hits into the air is flying out of the Park. Wrong.

Let's just say for a minute that the ball is travelling further for some reason nowadays though k? That would have(imho)everything to do with Bats being corked(to create a larger sweetspot), or that the Balls are being wound tighter than a friggin Golfball, than guys taking gear.

Ok then, how do explain the year Brady Anderson hit 50 yacks and put on about 30 lbs. The guy was a shrimp who could barely hit the ball out of the infield. The all the sudden the next year he comes back and hit shot's like canseco and Big Mac. Are you telling me that I'm still buying into the media, or did this guy not benefit from the juice???

I'm not saying buy any means that every ball Bonds hits is gonna go 440, of course he's gonna pop out sometimes. But some of the balls that would not normally make it out do, cause he's got increased power, aka. "da juice"

 

[Zerxes]

Yes I've swung a baseball bat. Have you? Do you think weight training and supplements has no impact on how far you hit a ball? If you do, you're sadly mistaken.

Let's look at one example - Bret Boone.

Bret has always been a good contact hitter, averaged around 15 or so homeruns a year since 1992. He's always had the timing and the talent. Now, let's look what happened in 2001. He picked up about 25 pounds, his forearms were the 15" around, and guess what?

Turned in the finest offensive season in history by an AL second baseman, posting career-highs in virtually all offensive categories...set the AL record for most home runs (36) and RBI (141) by a second baseman...became the first AL second baseman in history to bat .300 or better with 30-plus home runs...led the AL in RBI...was second in the Majors with 65 multi-hit games...

Hmm. Did weight-training and (most likely) steroids have anything to do with that? I doubt it.

Let's take another example, Ken Griffey Jr. Now, before you jump to more ridiculous conclusions, I'm not going to attribute jr's succes to roids. But what everyone does attribute his success to is bat speed. He uses a relatively light bat, and he has one of the fastest swings in the majors. He hits hella homeruns.

Now are you going to tell me that one cannot dramatically increase bat speed by taking steroids and gaining shoulder, forearm, and wrist strength? I know you're not going to tell me that. Don't try to argue with me on this one, because you will lose.

Woohooo..scared a u bro! I'll say it one more time. Bat speed has nothing to do with hitting homeruns. I thought that was what we were talking about. I also thought we were talking about Barry Bonds here. I dont think Brett Boone is in his league, but if you want to go off on a tangeant & try to lose me with shit that has nothing to do with what Im talking about, then thats fine. If you are asking me weather or not I know if speed & strength can be increased with gear, then look at my avatar brother. I know a thing or twenty about gear, so I need no lecture from you I assure ya! Now what Im saying is that(just as in GOLF), the distance a ball travels is equall to the degree of form presented by the swingee(so to speak). Take all the bat speed & muscle that you want, but it is irrellevant. O and btw...please God dont let me lose this "arguement" I might not be able to live with it if I do!!! Jees, a discussion doesnt have to be an arguement does it dude?

 

[bigguns7]

Now what Im saying is that(just as in GOLF), the distance a ball travels is equall to the degree of form presented by the swingee(so to speak). Take all the bat speed & muscle that you want, but it is irrellevant.

Dude, you're digging in deeper here. Are you know trying to say that clubhead speed has nothing to do with the distance a golf-ball travels? Read up brother, you'r wrong once again.

Oh, and that Brett Boone thing, it's called an ANALOGY. People often use those to illustrate a point. You did the same thing with the golf reference.

 

[Zerxes]

Ok then, how do explain the year Brady Anderson hit 50 yacks and put on about 30 lbs. The guy was a shrimp who could barely hit the ball out of the infield. "

The same way I explain Roger Marris hitting 61 in 1961 when he never hit more than 30 before or after brother. He had a good year? Why is that so hard to grasp?? Some people just have to hold onto the negative I suppose.

Let me put it this way. I am a decent sized guy, and I Golf on occasion right. My swing(especially off the tee) sucks rocks, because I always try to muscle the ball. Im good for 150 Yds TOPS because of this. On the flip-side of that coin, my brother is a stickman, but has excellent form and can drive them shits 300 yds. everytime. Now lets say I were to(as Fonz said) go onto a massive Test Suspension cycle tomorrw. Would I be hiting that ball ANY further??? Hell no. I know because Ive tried. It's all form. Thats my opinion & Im stickin too it!

 

[Zerxes]

Dude, you're digging in deeper here. Are you know trying to say that clubhead speed has nothing to do with the distance a golf-ball travels? Read up brother, you'r wrong once again.

Clubhead speed has nothing to due with Steroids is what Im saying brother!! Are you going to tell me that clubspeed has everything to do with size, strength, ans steroids, and NOTHING to do with form??? Good Form = Cluhead speed/Batspeed. NOT size or strength.

 

[troybday]

I give up on this. I know what I've saw and I know quit a few semi-pro, and a few old school pros who know what there talking about. If you don't think that Roids have enhanced Bonds performance, then your totally clueless. I'm with Bigguns on every aspect of this conversation.

BTW, like i said earlier though, if Bonds does break the Home Run record, I would say he might be the best of all time. But there are still alot of guys with many many years left, what does bonds have left, maybe 2 or 3 years at most???

 

[alien amp pharm]

good form + power(strength) = homerun

-improve good form: 1.practice 2.agility 3.coordination 4. speed 5.follow through 6.etc........

-improve power(strength): 1.increase size, muscle & fat. (steroids do just that!)

 

[beefybull]

Zerxes, they are right. Steroids would increase performance, provided they did not induce a big change in natural form. 20lbs extra lbs of muscle can either aid you or hurt you. If someone is 200 lbs and can hit 35 HRs a year, then puts on 20lbs of muscle and there is no form/skill decrease, he has a higher HR potential. However, this doesnt mean Barry Bonds ever did use them.

Greatest player ever... Bonds is up there, but he's Top 10 or 20 material, not the greatest. Greatest overall player ever is easily Babe Ruth, with Ty Cobb coming in at a very close 2nd. Babe gets the edge b/c he 'saved' baseball, and the fact that he's the best overall hitter EVER .342 lifetime BA with 714 HRs is better than Hank Aarons .305 average, and Babe could have hit for higher average but knew that it didnt attract fans. He once said "I could hit 6 singles a game if I wanted, but who'd want to see that?". Ty Cobb was the best pure hitter ever (.367, 4191 hits), with Shoeless Joe Jackson, Rogers Hornsby, and several others very close.

The best players today are Barry Bonds, Frank Thomas (having a bad year), Sammy Sosa, and although I hate to give him any props, maybe A-Rod (not worth $252m tho).

 

[MattTheSkywalker]

Bonds has to be in everyone's offensive top 10.

Hank Aaron
Babe Ruth
Willie Mays
Ty Cobb
Barry Bonds
Mickey Mantle

Not sure who else I would compare to Bonds...

Gehrig, maybe.
Greenberg?
Ted williams?
Hornsby?

either way, Barry is right up there.