Anyone here take tribulus?

[Chaddycakes]

I know some people from my school who take this supplement(tribulus) and my questions was. Is tribulus safe? have any of you guys seen gains from it? Also what is the best brand to get if i do decide to purchase the product. Thanks in advance

 

[heavy_duty]

it wont do shit for you if you're under age 25.
do more research, you'll see. it is really for PCT

 

[Lifterforlife]

Yeah, trib by itself never lived up to the hype.

 

[MikeMartial]

Is tribulus safe?

It's safe because it doesn't do anything but empty your wallet and put a little lead in your pencil. Zero anabolic activity.

 

[kiosk]

is junk

 

[pong21]

I've read posts where people like it, but those were for PCT. It really isnt worth the money that they want for it, you can make same gains taking that versus on your own.

 

[Chaddycakes]

What is Pct?
I read on another site that it increases testosterone naturally in the body with no adverse side effects. Is there anything else i can take that is a steriod?

 

[Chaddycakes]

that isnt* a sterioid, sorry

 

[pong21]

that isnt* a sterioid, sorry

There are a select few pro-hormones out now that arent "steriods" but they give all the same bad side-effects without all the good gains. So if you really need something to increase your test, your best bet is to use real test. If you have low levels and your age is up there, then your doc might be able to get you on a HRT program. But I doubt that is the answer that you were looking for.

 

[SgtSlaughter]

that isnt* a sterioid, sorry

Food is the most anabolic compound known... eat a shitload, and you'll grow. Can't be afraid to put on a little fat when you want to be one of the Big Guys... they all got a little gut at some point.

As far as Trib is concerned... I take it, and like the effects (yes, libido is one ) ... as someone previously stated < 25 y/o to notice effects, yup, I am in that category, if you are. I say get your diet and training on the correct path for a good 5 years, experiement with supplements... then come back and talk about compounds that Doctors reccomend to promote/maintain muscle.

- SGT

P.S. PCT = Post Cycle Therapy = Post Steriod Cycle Therapy

 

[coldblue1955]

it's ok but the real deal is far better.

 

[Chaddycakes]

it's ok but the real deal is far better.

Lol im sure it is. Thanks for all the input guys I just need to stop being so lazy and put together a nice meal plan. I know im working out enough i do every body part 2 times a week. It just seems hard to go to school full time and be able to eat big. I think i might give the tribulus a try, you can find it pretty cheap on ebay. Optimum's tribulus is like 15 bucks for 100 servings. Thanks for all the input.

 

[swaptrex]

I just need to stop being so lazy.

so thats why you put potato cips in the fridge.....

 

[zips92]

Lol im sure it is. Thanks for all the input guys I just need to stop being so lazy and put together a nice meal plan. I know im working out enough i do every body part 2 times a week. It just seems hard to go to school full time and be able to eat big. I think i might give the tribulus a try, you can find it pretty cheap on ebay. Optimum's tribulus is like 15 bucks for 100 servings. Thanks for all the input.

Training enough is not your problem, training too much is. Training every muscle group 2 x week is too much unless you are on AAS (anabolic androgenic steroids) because they can help you recover much, much faster. You really need to cut back on your training frequency and focus more on hardcore intensity during your tarining sessions (NOT saying you don't do that now). Also, if you want to grow, try to get more sleep and rest/recover more, that's how you grow, not by overtraining.

To your original question, heavy_duty made a great post.....tribulus terrestris is not going to increase natural test levels much at all if somone is under 25 because endogeous testosterone production is so high. Tribulus and eurycoma longfolia jack is popular with AAS users because it does seem to aid in recovery following a cycle by restoring testosterone production sooner. But you have to keep in mind that following a steroid cycle, endogenous test leves are essentilly nil, and that's where these products can help, not when your test levels are already high!

If you are convinced to buy some, try to get some with an advanced delivery method like Biotest's or Nutrex. I wouldn't recommend normal capusles. Also, try to get approx. 30 grams of quality protein in your body every couple of hours throughout the day. This will do wonders for any athlete or someone in training.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Training enough is not your problem, training too much is. Training every muscle group 2 x week is too much unless you are on AAS (anabolic androgenic steroids) because they can help you recover much, much faster.

Actually, I believe just the opposite is probably true. Research shows for the natural bb, higher frequency/less volume is more advantageous. It is shown that no more damage is done to muscle training 3 days, even 7 days later.

On the other hand, many AAS users probably overtrain for just that reason, they think because using, they should train more often. Only the smart ones don't.

Effects of a 7-day eccentric training period on muscle damage and inflammation.

Researchers: Chen TC, Hsieh SS.

Institution: Department of Ball-Related Sports Science, Taipei Physical Education College, Taipei City, Taiwan.

Source: Medicine and Science Sports & Exercise 2001 Oct;33(10):1732-8

Purpose: This study examined the effects of a 7-day repeated maximal isokinetic eccentric training period on the indicators of muscle damage and inflammatory response.

Methods: Twenty-two college-age males were randomly assigned to eccentric training (ET) and control groups (CON). The initial exercise was 30 repetitions of maximal voluntary isokinetic eccentric contraction (ECC1) on non-dominant elbow flexors with Cybex 6000 at 60 degrees.s-1 angular velocity. The ET group performed the same exercise for the following 6 consecutive days (referred to as ECC2 to ECC7) after ECC1. Upper arm circumference (CIR), range of motion (ROM), and maximal isometric force (MIF) were measured before, immediately after, and every 24 h for 7 consecutive days after ECC1. Plasma creatine kinase (CK), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), glutamic oxaloacetate transaminase (GOT), leukocyte counts, and serum interleukin-1beta and -6 (IL-1beta, IL-6) levels were assessed before; at 2 h; and at 1, 3, 4, 6, and 7 d after ECC1. Muscle soreness was measured before and for 7 consecutive days after ECC1.

Results: The ECC1 produced significant changes in most of the measures for both groups, with the exception of leukocyte counts. No indicators of increased damage were found from the second consecutive day of eccentric training to the 7th day for the eccentric training group.

Conclusion: Continuous intensive isokinetic eccentric training performed with damaged muscles did not exacerbate muscle damage and inflammation after ECC1. In addition, a muscular "adaptation effect" may occur as early as 24 h after ECC1, as shown by the ET group's performance for 6 consecutive days after ECC1.

The results of this investigation indicated that repeated bouts of the eccentric exercise performed on each of the following 6 days after the first bout did not affect recovery from the first training bout. This is in agreement with a substantial amount of other studies indicating that muscle adapts effectively to physical load even when the loading is frequent or even continuous. Keep in mind that we are only talking about the physical recovery of the muscle. We are not talking about performance.

 

[zips92]

Actually, I believe just the opposite is probably true. Research shows for the natural bb, higher frequency/less volume is more advantageous. It is shown that no more damage is done to muscle training 3 days, even 7 days later.

On the other hand, many AAS users probably overtrain for just that reason, they think because using, they should train more often. Only the smart ones don't.

Effects of a 7-day eccentric training period on muscle damage and inflammation.

Researchers: Chen TC, Hsieh SS.

Institution: Department of Ball-Related Sports Science, Taipei Physical Education College, Taipei City, Taiwan.

Source: Medicine and Science Sports & Exercise 2001 Oct;33(10):1732-8

Purpose: This study examined the effects of a 7-day repeated maximal isokinetic eccentric training period on the indicators of muscle damage and inflammatory response.

Methods: Twenty-two college-age males were randomly assigned to eccentric training (ET) and control groups (CON). The initial exercise was 30 repetitions of maximal voluntary isokinetic eccentric contraction (ECC1) on non-dominant elbow flexors with Cybex 6000 at 60 degrees.s-1 angular velocity. The ET group performed the same exercise for the following 6 consecutive days (referred to as ECC2 to ECC7) after ECC1. Upper arm circumference (CIR), range of motion (ROM), and maximal isometric force (MIF) were measured before, immediately after, and every 24 h for 7 consecutive days after ECC1. Plasma creatine kinase (CK), lactate dehydrogenase (LDH), glutamic oxaloacetate transaminase (GOT), leukocyte counts, and serum interleukin-1beta and -6 (IL-1beta, IL-6) levels were assessed before; at 2 h; and at 1, 3, 4, 6, and 7 d after ECC1. Muscle soreness was measured before and for 7 consecutive days after ECC1.

Results: The ECC1 produced significant changes in most of the measures for both groups, with the exception of leukocyte counts. No indicators of increased damage were found from the second consecutive day of eccentric training to the 7th day for the eccentric training group.

Conclusion: Continuous intensive isokinetic eccentric training performed with damaged muscles did not exacerbate muscle damage and inflammation after ECC1. In addition, a muscular "adaptation effect" may occur as early as 24 h after ECC1, as shown by the ET group's performance for 6 consecutive days after ECC1.

The results of this investigation indicated that repeated bouts of the eccentric exercise performed on each of the following 6 days after the first bout did not affect recovery from the first training bout. This is in agreement with a substantial amount of other studies indicating that muscle adapts effectively to physical load even when the loading is frequent or even continuous. Keep in mind that we are only talking about the physical recovery of the muscle. We are not talking about performance.

I don't know, it seems a little skewed if all they tested was elbow flexion after 30 repetitions on 6 consecutive days. Also 30 reps......hard to believe most folks training to gain muscular size and strength do 30 reps or less during a training regimen (I know there will always be exceptions, and someone will say they do 21's, as do I)

Also, let's say you squatted for several sets until you collapsed, then followed that up with deep heavy leg presses, and then maybe hack squats, and completed with walking lunges until you could no longer walk. I would like to see a natural bodybuilder do that for 6 consecutive days. I don't think your Taiwan study of someone bending their elbow for 30 reps once a day for 6 consecutive days is the same, if you do, then have at it and good luck.

For me I ain't buying it, and I feel you are setting a bad precedent for beginners or natural bodybuilders to overtrain. Problem with it is, many may not know any different and some may not agree because they have never trained any different. They may not be able to convince themselves they are overtraining unless they start training less (with more intensity), and rest/recover more to compare the results.

You may feel strongly about this, but this is the first time I have ever heard at any level that it works best to train an individual bodypart for 6 consecutive days. Now this entire issue may be a matter of semantics, because it could all depend on the definition of TRAINING. Playing basketball, golf or tennis for 6 consecutive days is not the same to me as hardcore weight lifting.

If per chance your theory was dead-on, and training the same bodypart for 6 consecutive days yielded the best results, if you could even do that, then you must be doing something incorrect IMO, and probably not training very hard. I don't like this advice at all, and I hope other natural bodybuilders do not either, but to each his own of course.

Also, you really went out on a limb by saying only smart AAS users do not overtrain........?

 

[Lifterforlife]

I don't know, it seems a little skewed if all they tested was elbow flexion after 30 repetitions on 6 consecutive days. Also 30 reps......hard to believe most folks training to gain muscular size and strength do 30 reps or less during a training regimen (I know there will always be exceptions, and someone will say they do 21's, as do I)

Also, let's say you squatted for several sets until you collapsed, then followed that up with deep heavy leg presses, and then maybe hack squats, and completed with walking lunges until you could no longer walk. I would like to see a natural bodybuilder do that for 6 consecutive days. I don't think your Taiwan study of someone bending their elbow for 30 reps once a day for 6 consecutive days is the same, if you do, then have at it and good luck.

For me I ain't buying it, and I feel you are setting a bad precedent for beginners or natural bodybuilders to overtrain. Problem with it is, many may not know any different and some may not agree because they have never trained any different. They may not be able to convince themselves they are overtraining unless they start training less (with more intensity), and rest/recover more to compare the results.

You may feel strongly about this, but this is the first time I have ever heard at any level that it works best to train an individual bodypart for 6 consecutive days. Now this entire issue may be a matter of semantics, because it could all depend on the definition of TRAINING. Playing basketball, golf or tennis for 6 consecutive days is not the same to me as hardcore weight lifting.

If per chance your theory was dead-on, and training the same bodypart for 6 consecutive days yielded the best results, if you could even do that, then you must be doing something incorrect IMO, and probably not training very hard. I don't like this advice at all, and I hope other natural bodybuilders do not either, but to each his own of course.

Also, you really went out on a limb by saying only smart AAS users do not overtrain........?

See, the very thing you state in your first and second paragraph is precisely the problem. Most folks overtrain badly. If doing 2 sets of an exercise damages a muscle, can you really keep inflicting more damage on it? Will it do any good? This is the crux of the matter, most folks train and tax the CNS and this is what they cannot recover from.

You say it precisely yourself, in your leg workout scenario. Do squats till collapsing? Need I say more? Overtrainng, taxing the nervous system, not the muscle. Then heavy leg presses, and then hacks till as you say you can no longer walk? Is this necessary? I would say this in fact is overtraining, you have long since stopped doing anything to the muscle, and are working the CNS.

And noone said to train for 6 consecutive days. 3 full body workouts....remember, the idea is more frequency/less volume. This has been shown time and time again to work.

As far as a bad precedent, I believe you my friend are doing much more harm. Telling anyone to train like you mention is doing noone any good.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Also, you really went out on a limb by saying only smart AAS users do not overtrain........?

Don't think so. I would be willing to bet all but the seasoned lifter when getting their hands on AAS immediately go to overtraining. The thinking immediately becomes I am doing AAS, so I should train harder and longer. This in fact will offset much of the advantage of the AAS.

AAS can definitely elevate your work capacity, but don't think for a minute you can't overtrain. They increase frequency/volume/intensity so much that they do themselves more harm than good.

Think about it, most athletes will solve a bad day by working twice as hard normally, and with AAS do even more.

 

[Chaddycakes]

Anyone have any suggestions then on how many times each body part should be worked in a week? Just once?

 

[Arniceous]

oh hell yea - every bb should get mine from Higher Power

 

[gjohnson5]

Keep in mind that we are only talking about the physical recovery of the muscle. We are not talking about performance.

70% of your post is irrelevant based on this last sentance

 

[zips92]

lifterforlife, you and I are certainly living in different worlds and that's fine for us. I am 37 years old, and probably like you, I have been a fitness/lifting junkie, and dedicated athlete my entire life. This is genuinely the first time I have ever heard a recommendation like this, and this is not consistent with bodybuilding philosophy I have absorbed over 20 years from trainers, strength coaches, professional bodybuilders, amateur bodybuilders and knowledgeble AAS users.

I will practice and advocate intensity, rest and recovery over frequency any day to any serious bodybuilder, and your method to a golfer, tennis player or basketball player, etc. There are certainly places for both philosophies, I fully understand. Please do not take that as patronizing. I realize you obviously have some conviction about this, and that is great, and I respect that, I just do not agree with it.

Hopefully the original poster received some good information about tribulus before this thread went off on a tangent.........

 

[Lifterforlife]

lifterforlife, you and I are certainly living in different worlds and that's fine for us. I am 37 years old, and probably like you, I have been a fitness/lifting junkie, and dedicated athlete my entire life. This is genuinely the first time I have ever heard a recommendation like this, and this is not consistent with bodybuilding philosophy I have absorbed over 20 years from trainers, strength coaches, professional bodybuilders, amateur bodybuilders and knowledgeble AAS users.

I will practice and advocate intensity, rest and recovery over frequency any day to any serious bodybuilder, and your method to a golfer, tennis player or basketball player, etc. There are certainly places for both philosophies, I fully understand. Please do not take that as patronizing. I realize you obviously have some conviction about this, and that is great, and I respect that, I just do not agree with it.

Hopefully the original poster received some good information about tribulus before this thread went off on a tangent.........

Well, ok. I have been doing this for all of 30 yrs. Took me a long time to figure things out.

I will make you one challenge....show me even one credible paper that shows the "intensity" you speak of in your past post pertaining to the leg workout, in other words, where you work till you drop, then having to rest seven days because you taxed the CNS so badly, that this is somehow good, I will listen.

The idea is to WORK the muscle, not ANNIHLATE it!

IN the meantime, here is something you may want to read. And this was done on WELL TRAINED LIFTERS.

This microtrauma may be expected to require you to postpone your next workout until your muscles are back to normal. It is this logic that your average personal trainer will use when he/she tells you to wait, sometimes a full week, before training the same body part again. Recent research however is showing us that putting off your next workout until your muscles have "fully recovered" may not be necessary or even desirable!1,2,3 In a study performed at the University of Alabama4, two groups of subjects performed the same periodized resistance training routine either once per week or three times per week. The results showed that muscle mass increases were greater in the three workout per week group, compared to the one workout per week group. In addition, the strength increases in this group were on average 40% greater! So what does this mean to you? It means the fear of overtraining, which sometimes verges on paranoia, may be preventing you from getting the most gains you can in the gym.

1) Nosaka K, Clarkson P.M. Muscle damage following repeated bouts of high force eccentric exercise. Med. Sci. Sports Exrc., 27(9):1263-1269,1995

2) Smith LL., Fuylmer MG., Holbert D., McCammon MR., Houmard JA., Frazer DD., Nsien E., Isreal RG. The impact of repeated bout of eccentric exercise on muscular strength, muscle soreness and creatine kinase. Br J Sp Med 28(4):267-271, 1994

3) T.C. Chen, Taipei Physical Education College, and S.S. Hsieh, FACSM,. The effects of a seven-day repeated eccentric training on recovery from muscle damage. Med. Sci. Sports Exrc. 31(5 Supp) pp. S71, 1999

4) McLester JR., Bishop P., & Guilliams M. Comparison of 1 and 3 day per week of equal volume resistance training in experienced subjects. Med. Sci. Sports Exrc. 31(5 Supp) pp.S117 1999

And now tell me my post was irrelevant gjohnson. And don't just tell me I am wrong, give me something to back up your assertation again that annihlating a muscle is desirable to credibly working a muscle for hypertrophy.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Originally Posted by Lifterforlife
Keep in mind that we are only talking about the physical recovery of the muscle. We are not talking about performance.

70% of your post is irrelevant based on this last sentance

This just simply shows your intrepretation skills bro. This is precisely WHY this post is relevant! Physical recovery is indeed the crux of the discussion.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Ok, I will try now to approach this from a common sense standpoint, as it seems the scientific approach went completely over the heads.

Lets define intensity first off, shall we? What is intensity? 2 sets, 5 sets, 10 sets....hell according to your workout scenario it is more like 30 sets.

Why does it take that much to be intense? Why can't you be intense in 2 sets, 3 sets? What you failed to intrepet from the orginal study I posted was that if you do 30 reps for a set, or 10 reps, subsequent sets, even days later showed no further damage to the muscle!

So, if subsequent sets and more work does no further damage to the muscle, what are all those other sets you are doing accomplishing? What are they working? Not the muscle.

Now, tell me, why do we work out? To damage the muscle, rebuild it and hopefully it grows back bigger and stronger. Doing tons of multiple sets does not accomplish this. They are no longer working the mucle, they are taxing the CNS. You have to have to have the ability to understand how the body works to intrepet this. This is where people have trouble recovering.

When you get a pump with 3 good working sets, talking, intense, full range of mostion sets with taxing weight, do you get more of a pump if you do 10 more?

Bodybuilders are notorious for if some is good, then more is better! Bodybuilders are probably the worst abusers of anything. Supplements, training, etc.

I can present the information, it is up to those who read it to either use it or fight it. Just keep the information in the back of your head when you go to the gym next. "If you feel like you have to be carried out of the gym literally to get a good workout, then this of course will make no sense to you".

Ultimately you will do what you want, that is what free will is all about.

 

[tay1506]

Anyone have any suggestions then on how many times each body part should be worked in a week? Just once?

Well it just depends i would say 2 - 3 times a week, and im going with lifterforlife. Very good programs like 5x5 and HST that are proven to work are both done 3x a week. However other programs like 1-6 principle are done 1x a week per body part. I have always done 2-3 a week for each body part, as of right now i do upper body 3 times a week and lower 2. I'm also not a great big fan of the 5x5 even though I know it works. In my routine i use the same methodology as it, with loading and deloading and big compound lifts. Big compound lifts are the basis of my program i have been doing for about 6 months now, however i do much more of the not so big lifts, and it works well so far for me.

If I was you i would work each body part 3 times a week or 2 depending on how much u want to workout. Also stick too B.P., Squats, and Deads. Depending on where u are in your lifting you might want to use the dual factor theory. What i mean by how far is if u have plateaued yet and how many times.

 

[SgtSlaughter]

Seeing as we're way off topic already...

we are way off topic here... so here we go...

I'm a firm beliver that there is NO SET way to train, every individual recovers at different rates. With that said, over the years I've learned that working out 1 bodypart / week doesn't cut it for me. Because by the time I'm ready to work the, let's say chest, again... it's not next week and my chest is fully recovered.

I've started training MAJOR muscle groups 2x week ... and smaller, bi's, tri's, much more frequent than every before. I've noticed GREAT results. But because I do this... I do not do giant super sets, ect. Ex: bi's - Let's say it's chest day and I feel I can do a few set's of hammer curls and some alternating dumbell curls... I will do it, and they'll be fully recovered come the next day... and i'll probably do a few sets the day after that though.

This Game is all about changing things up when you DO NOT see results.

Also, another theory I've been appreciating more lately is the Mechanic and Soccer player idea i call it.

Think of a Mechanics' forearms... they ARE HUGE! ... and a soccer players calves... same... HUGE!

Why, you ask? Because they are worked extremely hard daily and the muscle is forced to grow to accept more abuse the next day. Why do you think Arnold had to train calves 45 mins a day for a few years (I think it said 3 years in his book).

Just my thoughts... impliment as you see fit

P.S. If I'm overly sore, I take time/day off as needed also... recover is key obviously I hope.


- SGT

 

[Chaddycakes]

Thanks again guys, I guess ill stick to working out each body part 2 times a week. However im going to try and up the intensity and go for around 3 to 4 sets( depending on which muscle group) instead of 5 for all of them.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Re: Seeing as we're way off topic already...

we are way off topic here... so here we go...

I'm a firm beliver that there is NO SET way to train, every individual recovers at different rates. With that said, over the years I've learned that working out 1 bodypart / week doesn't cut it for me. Because by the time I'm ready to work the, let's say chest, again... it's not next week and my chest is fully recovered.

I've started training MAJOR muscle groups 2x week ... and smaller, bi's, tri's, much more frequent than every before. I've noticed GREAT results. But because I do this... I do not do giant super sets, ect. Ex: bi's - Let's say it's chest day and I feel I can do a few set's of hammer curls and some alternating dumbell curls... I will do it, and they'll be fully recovered come the next day... and i'll probably do a few sets the day after that though.

This Game is all about changing things up when you DO NOT see results.

Also, another theory I've been appreciating more lately is the Mechanic and Soccer player idea i call it.

Think of a Mechanics' forearms... they ARE HUGE! ... and a soccer players calves... same... HUGE!

Why, you ask? Because they are worked extremely hard daily and the muscle is forced to grow to accept more abuse the next day. Why do you think Arnold had to train calves 45 mins a day for a few years (I think it said 3 years in his book).

Just my thoughts... impliment as you see fit

P.S. If I'm overly sore, I take time/day off as needed also... recover is key obviously I hope.


- SGT

Nice post....I am big fan of "instinctive" training. This can be utilized greatly by getting in touch with your body.

If one thinks about it, MPS is elevated after training from 24-36 hr., then returns to baseline. So you can basically spend 2 days maybe gaining, and then 3-4 days maintaining if you wait seven days for instance.

I like Sgt.'s outlook on bodyparts, almost exactly how I work them in. And, as mentioned, the best workout is changing things up.

 

[SgtSlaughter]

Re: Seeing as we're way off topic already...

Thank you.

EXACTLY "instinctive" training! That's what it's all about! And being Very, VERY in touch with your body as you stated!

I don't think I've had the same workout session in 5 years, every time it's different in some way.

Lifter4Life: MPS? ... I think I know what you mean with what you stated after it, but I have no idea what that acronym stands for

- SGT

 

[Lifterforlife]

Muscle protein synthesis.

 

[SgtSlaughter]

Muscle protein synthesis.

I knew that!








... thanks.

- SGT

 

[Lifterforlife]

Studies show that MPS is in fact elevated by 109% (more than double) at 24 hrs. So keep pounding that protein in, adding some BCAA's may not be a bad idea also.


The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise.

MacDougall JD, Gibala MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDonald JR, Interisano SA, Yarasheski KE.

Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario.

It has been shown that muscle protein synthetic rate (MPS) is elevated in humans by 50% at 4 hrs following a bout of heavy resistance training, and by 109% at 24 hrs following training. This study further examined the time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis by examining its rate at 36 hrs following a training session. Six healthy young men performed 12 sets of 6- to 12-RM elbow flexion exercises with one arm while the opposite arm served as a control. MPS was calculated from the in vivo rate of incorporation of L-[1,2-13C2] leucine into biceps brachii of both arms using the primed constant infusion technique over 11 hrs. At an average time of 36 hrs postexercise, MPS in the exercised arm had returned to within 14% of the control arm value, the difference being nonsignificant. It is concluded that following a bout of heavy resistance training, MPS increases rapidly, is more than double at 24 hrs, and thereafter declines rapidly so that at 36 hrs it has almost returned to baseline.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 8563679 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[SgtSlaughter]

Quality. Excellent posts as always!

If I could give you more karma I would!... I must spread it around.

- SGT

 

[gjohnson5]

Originally Posted by Lifterforlife
Keep in mind that we are only talking about the physical recovery of the muscle. We are not talking about performance.



This just simply shows your intrepretation skills bro. This is precisely WHY this post is relevant! Physical recovery is indeed the crux of the discussion.

My point of view is that performance is the key reason people go to the gym. Performace is the reason people overtrain. What is the percentage of folks who tailor thier workout with recovery in mind...

Not very many... So I think the discussion should be based the key reason people go to the gym in the first place

 

[gjohnson5]

Now, tell me, why do we work out? To damage the muscle, rebuild it and hopefully it grows back bigger and stronger.

This is the reason why I said your post is irrelevant. You can gain muscle size without making poundage gains (see hypertrophy specific training) or you can do 5x5 with poundage gains in mind. I would say most people are more worried about performance then muscle size. But there are specific training methods to develop one or the other.

 

[Lifterforlife]

This is the reason why I said your post is irrelevant. You can gain muscle size without making poundage gains (see hypertrophy specific training)

Well, think about what you are saying. Apparantely you did not research HST very well. Does the word hypertrophy mean anything to you? Most all of the resources, principles, studies I posted are just what HST is based upon. More frequency, less volume.

Noone needs to workout till they are carried out of the gym. It is no wonder folks cannot recover from that.


And poundage gains are indeed increased, as recouperation is indeed enhanced. This again is what this entire discussion was about. Here is something for you to read bro....read well trained subjects.



In a study performed at Montclair State Universityresearchers investigated the effect of a single setvs. a multiple set routine on increasing upper body
strength. They had the subjects perform either one set or three sets of bench press, incline dumbbell press and flat dumbbell flies using ten reps, three times per week for 12 weeks. This kind of study has been done before but this one is particularly valuable because it involved previously "trained" subjects. This is significant because untrained subjects will usually respond positively to virtually any training routine. Just because a training strategy works for beginners doesn't mean it will work for experienced lifters. These researchers found that doing a single set of each exercise was equally effective as doing three sets of the same movements in increasing the
subjects one repetition maximum (1RM) on bench press.

The take home message is that you needn't do more than a single work set to achieve the same relative gains of doing multiple sets. This makes incorporating a whole body workout into your schedule much more
feasible.

or you can do 5x5 with poundage gains in mind. I would say most people are more worried about performance then muscle size. But there are specific training methods to develop one or the other.

Yeah, and what is the first thing most bb'ers do if they have a bad performance....they offset it by doing more sets!

While you make a valid point that you can indeed train for one or the other, in the end it will still come down to size gains. You get stronger as you get bigger. We all know that one guy that is 150 lbs. that can bench 3 plates for 10 reps. But how many of them is there, and how often do you see them? I would guess never. In fact, with a 5x5, you train to increase your 1RM. As this happens, your working sets will naturally increase. As this increases, you increase overload capacity of the muscle, and thus size gains. 5 sets of 5, resting 3 minutes between each is much different than multiple set after set as was mentioned.

 

[gjohnson5]

Sorry , I didn't word that right at all. I don't believe that a guy who looks like he has bigger arms and chest then the next guy automatically can bench more weight.

HST incorporates strategic deconditioning which will allow us to lower or increase poundages and still make muscle size gains, and lift them them with more or less frequency (which is what you have been talking about) and still make muscle size gains

4) Strategic Deconditioning
At this point, it is necessary to either increase the load (Progressive load), or decrease the degree of conditioning to the load (Strategic Deconditioning). The muscle is sensitive not only to the absolute load, but also to the change in load (up or down). Therefore, you can get a hypertrophic effect from increasing the load from a previous load, even if the absolute load is not maximum, assuming conditioning (resistance to exercise induced micro-damage) is not to extensive. There is a limit to the number of increments you can add to increase the load. You simply reach your maximum voluntary strength eventually. This is why Strategic Deconditioning is required for continued growth once growth has stopped (all things remaining equal).

 

[SgtSlaughter]

You guys definetly should start a new thread in the trainning forum.... you may get more input than simply going back and forth with each other as well.

 

[Lifterforlife]

Sorry , I didn't word that right at all. I don't believe that a guy who looks like he has bigger arms and chest then the next guy automatically can bench more weight.

True, but makes little sense as to the discussion. There is always the case or so, but more than not usually the bigger guy will do more weight. I am different here, I can outdo many guys bigger size than me. But, again, this is unusual.

HST incorporates strategic deconditioning which will allow us to lower or increase poundages and still make muscle size gains, and lift them them with more or less frequency (which is what you have been talking about) and still make muscle size gains

I don't get it? If you know this stuff, what are you debating? Strategic deconditioning is explained below. Has little to do with our discussion of normal workouts. We all need to do this at some point.

4) Strategic Deconditioning
At this point, it is necessary to either increase the load (Progressive load), or decrease the degree of conditioning to the load (Strategic Deconditioning). The muscle is sensitive not only to the absolute load, but also to the change in load (up or down). Therefore, you can get a hypertrophic effect from increasing the load from a previous load, even if the absolute load is not maximum, assuming conditioning (resistance to exercise induced micro-damage) is not to extensive. There is a limit to the number of increments you can add to increase the load. You simply reach your maximum voluntary strength eventually. This is why Strategic Deconditioning is required for continued growth once growth has stopped (all things remaining equal).

Strategic deconditioning. Take a rest period. We all need these. At this point, plenty of information has been presented. We all make choices, to be in the dark or be informed. I made mine quite some time ago. I say work out the way you want. Peace....