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Antiestrogens

  • Thread starter Thread starter Stew Meat
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Stew Meat

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Clomid is a fertility drug that stimulates FSH and LH which in the female will lead to a fertile egg and in a male, leads to higher sperm counts and higher levels of testosterone (high test levels as long as levels aren't already high). However, clomid should never be taken thrgouhout a cycle. There is no purpose in it and it will only reduce its overall effectiveness when it is needed, post cycle.

Side effects of clomid:

blurred vission (but mostly in women), diplopia, scotoma, photo-phobia, nausea, vomiting, bloating, distention, water gain, breast discomfort, hot flashes, urinary infections, cyst formation, thrombocytopenia, leukopenia, anemia, pharyngitis, rhinitis, sinusitus, epistaxis, dyspnea, headaches, restlessness. insomnia, dizziness, light-headedness, depression, fatigue...

Clomid is, however, a VERY effective drug in promoting HPTA recovery post-cycle. Due to a feedback inhibition, clomid will not stimulate any natural testosterone production as long as androgen levels in the body remain high. But, post cycle, when androgen levels fall toward normal, clomid will bind to receptors in the hypothalamus and trick the pituatary into releaseing more LH... LH stimulates the testicles to produce testosterone, and testosterone is converted to estrogen. Anytime the body gets low in estrogen, it must make more testosterone in order to increase estrogen levels. Estrogen is absolutely necessary in various cellular and neural functions such as the branching of dendritic spines (memory)....


Use Arimidex or Proviron as antiestrogens throughout your cyle as antiestrogens. It is doubtful that clomid will have any benefit in preventing gyno... and will not prevent aromitase from converting testosterone into estrogen where proviron and arimidex will.

Arimidex is VERY effective and doesn't cost much more than other antiestrogens if you buy overseas (it is not controlled so it gets through customs).

Nolvadex can be used throughout a cycle and is effective at blocking estrogen receptors but is useless at preventing estrogen's formation. Nolvadex will also inhibit IGF-1 and GH which could severly effect your cycle... High levels of androgens normally cause an increase in IGF-1 mediated growth responses by increasing IGF-1 receptor concentration and hormone levels. This is the same pathway that GH uses... block the IGF-1 pathway with nolvadex, and you will not make the gains that you could have.
Given, there are those who say they gained just fine while using nolvadex, but truth be told, they would have gained a lot more had they researched.

Proviron is also good to use throughout. Proviron, however, will also elicit an AR-mediated response meaning it will cause some degree of anabolism in itself. Consequently, the anabolic response from proviron is not as strong as the anabolic response from the androgens that you are running it with (i.e. test, nandralone, etc). Thus, by competing with the same receptors, it could possibly decrease the overall effects of the primary anabolics.

BUT this effect will be VERY small if at all... the reason is that androgen receptors tend to have different affinities (binding abilities) to different gear. For instance, androgen receptors have a higher affinity towards DHT than they do testosterone. It is unlikely even though proviron has an AR-mediated response, that it will bind to the androgen receptors as redially as the other androgens that your cycle consists of. But aromitase enzymes DO have an affinity toward proviron, so this lowers the oveall competitive inhibition with androgens for androgen receptors.

Arimidex is the drug of choice... Dosses of 1/4 tab per day have shown to be extremely effective. There was almost no difference in the effects of 1mg/day and 7mg/day.... There is no point in going over 1/2 tab per day IMO unless you are running over 1.5g of testosterone per week. 28 tabs come in a box... The price of Arimidex has dropped signifigantly due to new products that contain anastrozole, the active ingredient in Arimidex.




-Stew
 
Good post Stew. I think with the introduction of Liquidex, many more people (myself included) are now going to be able to use arimidex.
 
I have seen pictures of the liquidex, but where is it going to be available? Mexico, overseas?
 
The_Eviscerator said:
I have seen pictures of the liquidex, but where is it going to be available? Mexico, overseas?


It is availble domestic. It will probably not be availible for many years from a foreign source as AstraZeneca has the patent on Arimidex. Liquidex is made in underground labs and contains anastrozole which is the same active ingredient in Arimidex.




-Stew
 
I think thats one of the worst cycles I've ever seen and there is no need to run proviron throughout the cycle while using Arimidex.



-Stew
 
stew, thanks for this info. I'll be using arimidex in my next cycle thanks to you.
 
At what degree will Arimidex supress the anabolic effects of the gear you're using, like Sustanon?
 
mrt said:
At what degree will Arimidex supress the anabolic effects of the gear you're using, like Sustanon?

Arimidex over .5mg/day is not much more effective than 10mg/day. No anabolic supression that I know of.

-Stew
 
At what degree will Arimidex supress the anabolic effects of the gear you're using, like Sustanon?
 
Good stuff, Stew, I agree that any more than 1/4 (of 1 mg) tab is enough. I was taking 1/4 to 1 mg per day and I feel I had the same protection/benefits from both.
 
Stew

Arimidex is the drug of choice... Dosses of 1/4 tab per day have shown to be extremely effective. There was almost no difference in the effects of 1mg/day and 7mg/day.... T

I would like to do this right, Are you saying .25mg per day would be good enough to prevent estrogen on this cycle.


8 weeks

500 mg sustenon weekly
400 mg deca weekly
80 mg d-bol daily
400 mg primo weekly


ARiMIDEX 28tabs 1mg/tab.................................=> $240
 
Mr

In my opinion with Arimidex, start with a low dose, like 1/4 (1 mg) tab once per day and see how it goes. But if you need more, just add a little bit. The stuff is powerful at what it does, there's no doubt about that. hth
 
Stew, all hormones within the body are either directly or indirectly related, any decrease in estrogen will consequently lead to a reduction in igf-1 and gh. This is not so only with nolvadex. Do you not agree? Or are you saying that ifg and gh bind to estrogen receptor that the nolvadex blocks.

What would be of great use to the steroid enhanced community is exactly the rate at which igf and gh are supressed. If it is a small % increase then results will be negligible, if it is major then so results will be affected in this way.

Peace
 
Thats just it I was hoping to not even get started with the side effects. Reason being at $240 I don't feel like buying another 28 of them just in case. What do you think if I just had nolvadex as a backup if the Arimidex isn't strong enough.

I figure 8 weeks 56 days (.5 mg) will last exactly 56 days so should I just go .5 mg to start?
 
While Nolvadex is known for decreasing IGF-1 and its binding protein levels, there's no evidence that same happens with aromatise inhibitors.
Clomid and Nolvadex are selective agonist-antagonists, and by binding in breast tissue, they don't activate ER, just merely block it.
 
Re: Stew

Gyno-milker said:



I would like to do this right, Are you saying .25mg per day would be good enough to prevent estrogen on this cycle.


8 weeks

500 mg sustenon weekly
400 mg deca weekly
80 mg d-bol daily
400 mg primo weekly


ARiMIDEX 28tabs 1mg/tab.................................=> $240



You are getting RIPPED at that Arimidex price! Damn! Arimidex is fairly cheap if you order from an overseas source... and you don't have to worry about customs as it is non-scheduled.

1/4 tab ED should be plenty for you on that cycle. 1/2 will be more effective, but not drasticly more effective. 1mg/day will not be much more effective than .5mg per day. 1/4 tab should be fine. I'd get some nolvadex on hand ALWAYS just in case. You probably won't need it, but you can save it for years as preventative on future cycles.



-Stew
 
The Iron Game said:
Stew, all hormones within the body are either directly or indirectly related, any decrease in estrogen will consequently lead to a reduction in igf-1 and gh. This is not so only with nolvadex. Do you not agree? Or are you saying that ifg and gh bind to estrogen receptor that the nolvadex blocks.

What would be of great use to the steroid enhanced community is exactly the rate at which igf and gh are supressed. If it is a small % increase then results will be negligible, if it is major then so results will be affected in this way.


GH is blocked because it relies on the IGF-1 receptors. Nolvadex has been known to antagonize IGF-1 through means other than ER antagonization. Nolvadex does not decrease estrogen. It actually will cause an increase in estrogen levels. It is my understanding (but don't quote me on this) that nolvadex DIRECTLY antagonizes the IGF-1 pathway...



-Stew
 
Gyno-milker said:


I figure 8 weeks 56 days (.5 mg) will last exactly 56 days so should I just go .5 mg to start?


I would not double the dose. I would just continue to run the arimidex throught clomid treatment (which you should do anyway) and continue at 1/4 mg ED. Otherwise, double up toward the end of the cycle and not at the begining. Aromitase tends to upregulate in response to high levels on androgens in an effort to reach homeostasis in estrodiol : tesoterone ratios. Aromitase will be high and testosterone will be low post cycle. At this time, you need all the circulating testosterone possible. This is why I advocate the use of HCG post cycle.



-Stew
 
bissenmir said:
STEW, what about hcg?


HCG should always be used with antiestrogens. It stimulates the testicles DIRECTLY just as lutenizing hormone does. HCG should be taken for a maximum of two weeks at 2 injections per week. It is very good for getting your test levels up to aid in battleing cortisol. HCG can cause gyno if not used with antiestrogens. Antiaromitase must also be used to prevent the newly stimulated testosterone release from being aromitized to estrodiol (aromitase enzyme levels are high and testosterone levels are low at the end of a cycle). HCG must not be overused due to the fact that the testicles can become dependant on exogenous HCG for leydig cell stimulation...
I advocate 2500mg 2x per week. One week is fine... 2 weeks may be ok, 3 weeks is pushing it...



-Stew
 
I'm a little apprehensive about using Arimidex, because won't you're joints and tendons really suffer without water retention? It would be like doing heavy doses of Winny. Sure it will help you avoid Gyno, but at what expense? A torn tendon or muscle? I am still shakey about using this...
 
"While Nolvadex is known for decreasing IGF-1 and its binding protein levels, there's no evidence that same happens with aromatise inhibitors."

PAN, read the below study. Anastrazole reduced IGF levels by 18%. Reducing estrogen's action will reduce the insulin, GH and IGF axis...this has been shown in many studies.

"Clomid and Nolvadex are selective agonist-antagonists, and by binding in breast tissue, they don't activate ER, just merely block it."

In breast tissue, these agents don't activate the receptors, but at other tissues they do....thus the concept of a partial agonist/antagonist.

"GH is blocked because it relies on the IGF-1 receptors. Nolvadex has been known to antagonize IGF-1 through means other than ER antagonization. Nolvadex does not decrease estrogen. It actually will cause an increase in estrogen levels. It is my understanding (but don't quote me on this) that nolvadex DIRECTLY antagonizes the IGF-1 pathway..."

While the full mechanism of anti-estrogenic drugs effects on the GH/IGF axis is not yet elucidated, the most obvious reason cannot be refuted and is in fact well supported: estrogen is necessary for the functioning of the insulin, GH and IGF axis. The studies have shown that reduction in GH and IGF is PRIMARILY through the ER. Whether the levels of estrogen are high when one is on tamoxifen, is irrelevant....the estrogen cannot bind and activate its receptor. The below study supports the idea that estrogen is the main agent for proper functioning of GH/IGF.


J Clin Endocrinol Metab 2000 Jul;85(7):2370-7

"Estrogen suppression in males: metabolic effects."

Mauras N, O'Brien KO, Klein KO, Hayes V.

Nemours Research Programs at the Nemours Children's Clinic, Jacksonville, Florida 32207, USA. [email protected]

We have shown that testosterone (T) deficiency per se is associated with marked catabolic effects on protein, calcium metabolism, and body composition in men independent of changes in GH or insulin-like growth factor I production. It is not clear,,however, whether estrogens have a major role in whole body anabolism in males. We investigated the metabolic effects of selective estrogen suppression in the male using a potent aromatase inhibitor, Arimidex (Anastrozole). First, a dose-response study of 12 males (mean age, 16.1 +/- 0.3 yr) was conducted, and blood withdrawn at baseline and after 10 days of oral Arimidex given as two different doses (either 0.5 or 1 mg) in random order with a 14-day washout in between. A sensitive estradiol (E2) assay showed an approximately 50% decrease in E2 concentrations with either of the two doses; hence, a 1-mg dose was selected for other studies. Subsequently, eight males (aged 15-22 yr; four adults and four late pubertal) had isotopic infusions of [(13)C]leucine and (42)Ca/(44)Ca, indirect calorimetry, dual energy x-ray absorptiometry, isokinetic dynamometry, and growth factors measurements performed before and after 10 weeks of daily doses of Arimidex. Contrary to the effects of T withdrawal, there were no significant changes in body composition (body mass index, fat mass, and fat-free mass) after estrogen suppression or in rates of protein synthesis or degradation; carbohydrate, lipid, or protein oxidation; muscle strength; calcium kinetics; or bone growth factors concentrations. However, E2 concentrations decreased 48% (P = 0.006), with no significant change in mean and peak GH concentrations, but with an 18% decrease in plasma insulin-like growth factor I concentrations. There was a 58% increase in serum T (P = 0.0001), sex hormone-binding globulin did not change, whereas LH and FSH concentrations increased (P < 0.02, both). Serum bone markers, osteocalcin and bone alkaline phosphatase concentrations, and rates of bone calcium deposition and resorption did not change. In conclusion, these data suggest that in the male 1) estrogens do not contribute significantly to the changes in body composition and protein synthesis observed with changing androgen levels; 2) estrogen is a main regulator of the gonadal-pituitary feedback for the gonadotropin axis; and 3) this level of aromatase inhibition does not negatively impact either kinetically measured rates of bone calcium turnover or indirect markers of bone calcium turnover, at least in the short term. Further studies will provide valuable information on whether timed aromatase inhibition can be useful in increasing the height potential of pubertal boys with profound growth retardation without the confounding negative effects of gonadal androgen suppression.
 
cockdezl said:
"While Nolvadex is known for decreasing IGF-1 and its binding protein levels, there's no evidence that same happens with aromatise inhibitors."

PAN, read the below study. Anastrazole reduced IGF levels by 18%. Reducing estrogen's action will reduce the insulin, GH and IGF axis...this has been shown in many studies.

"Clomid and Nolvadex are selective agonist-antagonists, and by binding in breast tissue, they don't activate ER, just merely block it."

In breast tissue, these agents don't activate the receptors, but at other tissues they do....thus the concept of a partial agonist/antagonist.

"GH is blocked because it relies on the IGF-1 receptors. Nolvadex has been known to antagonize IGF-1 through means other than ER antagonization. Nolvadex does not decrease estrogen. It actually will cause an increase in estrogen levels. It is my understanding (but don't quote me on this) that nolvadex DIRECTLY antagonizes the IGF-1 pathway..."

While the full mechanism of anti-estrogenic drugs effects on the GH/IGF axis is not yet elucidated, the most obv

ious reason cannot be refuted and is in fact well supported: estrogen is necessary for the functioning of the insulin, GH and IGF axis. The studies have shown that reduction in GH and IGF is PRIMARILY through the ER. Whether the levels of estrogen are high when one is on tamoxifen, is irrelevant....the estrogen cannot bind and activate its receptor. The below study supports the ide


Good study Cockedzl. I think the Novaldex vs Arimidex
controversy just took off again.
What about timed estrogen injections to increase IGF-1
secretion? When I first came upon such an opinion
I thought the author was nuts, but now I'm not so sure.

Godspeed
 
Damn, and I have been taking 10-20 mg/day of Novaldex throughout my cycle.

I wonder how much that really supressed my gains.

Shit!
 
Stew, I have no access to Arimidex. I have 90 nolva tabs & 40 proviron tabs. I guess I would take them only if I experience any early gyno signs? Sofar, I have been on strong anabolics like Deca, Drive and dbols, and experienced no gyno/water retention. Stew, u posted a great topic, one that I was seeking an answer as to how nolva and proviron supress gains. Looks like Arimidex is the best choice to go but unfortunately, its so hard to get it here!!
 
Sorry, I didn't read cockdezl's post till now. I understand now, like what IG stated, that irregardless whether one is on nolva or arimidex, IGF-1 levels will drop due to the intake of antiestrogens. Strangely, GH levels has no significant change in the study quoted. Can someone explain this?
 
yiyangzhi said:
Sorry, I didn't read cockdezl's post till now. I understand now, like what IG stated, that irregardless whether one is on nolva or arimidex, IGF-1 levels will drop due to the intake of antiestrogens. Strangely, GH levels has no significant change in the study quoted. Can someone explain this?


GH may be circulating, but it binds to IGF-1 receptors. Antagonize IGF-1 receptors, and block GH.



-Stew
 
check it

Cyberflash:
If you go to kilosports.com and click to check
chrysin, it has a brief outline of products supposed
capabilities and how it works. same for other products.

I think thats where i am thinking of anyway.
 
nice post Steve but for me Prov is the best for the price, I've always used Prov and never got gyno.
Nolva on the other hand is a s...t it makes you loose lots of gains and not all of them are just water
 
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