Anti-estrogen supplements

[The Cardinal]

Has anyone had any positive results with regard to strength or body composition changes using only anti-estrogen supplements (i.e, supplements containing calcium d-glucarate, DIM, chrysin, vitex, etc, or some combination...) in combination with natural testosterone boosters such as tribulus or horney goat weed?

Would any experienced users care to offer an opinion regarding probable results from a two - four week cycle using only these types of products? It's my intention to give them a try for at least two weeks (regardless of comments or lack thereof), but still, I would appreciate comments/opinions/suggestions from the knowledgeable-types on the board.

 

[Pject]

I have been taking Vitex for 2 months straight now.


Soloray brand - 40 mg ; the guaranteed potency one (the red cap ; there is another one by Soloray that is not as potent)

1 capsule (40mg) every morning.

I cannot honestly say anything about strength. I am not quite sure how or what mechanism Vitex works. I can tell you after being on it for a few weeks. I was noticebly hornier and blew bigger loads.

You could assume then that test levels are being raised and anytime you raise test... you should get stronger, right? Maybe.
But I cannot tell if Vitex is helping me get stronger or I am just naturally progressing on my own.

IMO. It is worth a try. The stuff is CHEAP!!

I'd do a search on this. People use Vitex in mega doses to combat gyno while coming off steroids. So, the anabolic forum should have a bunch of info.

Pject

 

[shoichi]

I took the Ergogen Labs Androplex, Chrysin, DHEA for a four week cycle. I didn't take Trib at the time which they said was needed to compliment the other supps but I didn't have enough money. No gains in mass, maybe +5-10 lbs in my bench at same reps. I had a small buildup of soft tissue underneath my nipple, it wasn't noticeable but where it was hard muscle before it turned into fat. It could be that I stopped doing cardio during the beginning of my cycle, though my BF (using skinfold measurements) didn't change. All good products but the three, including my employee discount, still came to over a hundred bucks. I would not recommend them for the price.

The soft tissue has dissappeared during the end of my first week of 1AD, and I'm going to use Chrysin and Trib at the end of my 3 week cycle. I'll post in another 3 weeks, one week after my cycle and let you know if I"m keeping my gains.

 

[The Cardinal]

Thanks for the responses. Shoichi, I'm curious as to what may have precipitated the soft tissue build-up in your breasts - does the Androplex have prohormone compounds ending in "dione?" If so, this would provide a plausible explanation but if not, then the soft tissue build-up defies any obvious explanation.

Pject, I suspect the increased sexual stimulation you are experiencing ain't a bad side effect!

I'm hoping that using tribulus and maca along with some of the anti-estrogens I referenced will significantly increase free testosterone. I'm also toying with the idea of using about half of the recommended dose of a 4-AD product.

 

[Travbedaman]

if you are just going to run it two weeks, may as well use the full amount of 4-AD, it`s not very suppressive.

 

[pa1ad]

Has anyone had any positive results with regard to strength or body composition changes using only anti-estrogen supplements (i.e, supplements containing calcium d-glucarate, DIM, chrysin, vitex, etc, or some combination...) in combination with natural testosterone boosters such as tribulus or horney goat weed?

Would any experienced users care to offer an opinion regarding probable results from a two - four week cycle using only these types of products? It's my intention to give them a try for at least two weeks (regardless of comments or lack thereof), but still, I would appreciate comments/opinions/suggestions from the knowledgeable-types on the board.

We are in the finishing stages of producing what is going to be the first truly effective natural aromatase inhibitor to hit the market. It will make all these other things obsolete

 

[Baddogg]

i am thinking about running a 4 week cycle of 4-ad. Someone said that it doesn't aromatise. but would I need an anti estrogen? also would maca help combat estrogen?

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

We are in the finishing stages of producing what is going to be the first truly effective natural aromatase inhibitor to hit the market. It will make all these other things obsolete

And I do take exception to this statement Pat. I don't know what you are working on, and it may possibly turn out to be a better aromatase inhibitor than Viratase. I don't know. But to say you have the first truly effective aromatse inhibitor is hogwash.

Now that I have released a better oral 1-Test product than 1-AD, is 1-AD now suddenly obsolete? Or worse, was it never effective in the first place?

 

[1fast400]

supplements containing calcium d-glucarate, DIM, chrysin, vitex, etc, or some combination...) in combination with natural testosterone boosters such as tribulus or horney goat weed

I assumed his comment was in reference to these items, not your product specifically.

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

And I do take exception to this statement Pat. I don't know what you are working on, and it may possibly turn out to be a better aromatase inhibitor than Viratase. I don't know. But to say you have the first truly effective aromatse inhibitor is hogwash.

Now that I have released a better oral 1-Test product than 1-AD, is 1-AD now suddenly obsolete? Or worse, was it never effective in the first place?

Correct me if I am wrong bill but as far as i know there are no in-vivo studies demonstrating the ingredient in your product has anti-aromatase activity. If there are then i am mistaken. There most certainly are for my product.

Now, if in-vitro studies are all that you feel are necessary to claim that your product is an effective aromatase inhibitor then I guess chrysin is a great product too. WE know that is not the case

NOw, I don't mean to bust your balls but it is my opinion that in-vivo evidence is needed to make the claim that a product is truly known to be effective.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

Now, if in-vitro studies are all that you feel are necessary to claim that your product is an effective aromatase inhibitor then I guess chrysin is a great product too. WE know that is not the case

You know Pat, you give a lot of lip service about biotest and other companies knocking others' products without warrant. I am quite surprised to see you behave like this with me. Especially in light of the fact that I am the first to speak highly of ErgoPharm, and you know full well of this. I am happy to acknowledge the accomplishments of others. I can't understand with your success why you would not feel the same.

Comparing Viratase to Chrysin just takes the cake Pat. I really hope you do not start going the route of others who feel this industry is too small for more than one company. I speak highly of the work you do, but am starting to question your ability to share the spotlight with anyone else innovative.

Bottom line Pat: You do know that when you bash products that people know work, it is ultimately your reputation you are tarnishing.

 

[bpdaddy]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

I speak highly of the work you do, but am starting to question your ability to share the spotlight with anyone else innovative.

Bottom line Pat: You do know that when you bash products that people know work, it is ultimately your reputation you are tarnishing.

Don't get down on Mr. A, he's a good guy. He's just trying to get the next big thing in the market. As for Par and yourself, we all know your products are great and that won't change the facts.

Sharing is caring, right Bill...

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

You know Pat, you give a lot of lip service about biotest and other companies knocking others' products without warrant. I am quite surprised to see you behave like this with me. Especially in light of the fact that I am the first to speak highly of ErgoPharm, and you know full well of this. I am happy to acknowledge the accomplishments of others. I can't understand with your success why you would not feel the same.

Comparing Viratase to Chrysin just takes the cake Pat. I really hope you do not start going the route of others who feel this industry is too small for more than one company. I speak highly of the work you do, but am starting to question your ability to share the spotlight with anyone else innovative.

Bottom line Pat: You do know that when you bash products that people know work, it is ultimately your reputation you are tarnishing.

Bill, I think you ought to chill for a minute. I simply asked if you knew any studies indicating viratase (or the active ingredient thereof) has any demonstrable aromatase inhibition in-vivo. If you can provide them then you will have made your point.

Until you have such evidence then i am afraid that we do not know whether your product works any better than chrysin. Should we all agree that it does because you say so? Because "people know it works" (as you roughly put it). Jeezus Bill, who sounds like Biotest now? You saying that you don't need evidence cuz everyone just knows it works?

I call my product the first bona-fide aromatase inhibitor because it passes the test - and that is it has been proven in-vivo. Yours has not been proven in-vivo. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but it has not been proven like the stuff that will be in my formula.

I hope we can have a cordial discussion without getting angry over all this.

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

Don't get down on Mr. A, he's a good guy. He's just trying to get the next big thing in the market. As for Par and yourself, we all know your products are great and that won't change the facts.

Sharing is caring, right Bill...

Bill is a very talented supplement designer. I respect him alot. That does not mean i have to say that i think all his products are great. Nor does he have to say mine are great. Hey, he still believes that boldione is better than 1-AD, and I got no problem with him saying that.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

Until you have such evidence then i am afraid that we do not know whether your product works any better than chrysin. Should we all agree that it does because you say so? Because "people know it works" (as you roughly put it). Jeezus Bill, who sounds like Biotest now? You saying that you don't need evidence cuz everyone just knows it works?

Pat, you spoke quite matter-of-factly about the strong anti-estrogenic effects of DHT and 5-alpha androstanedione (Viratase) in Muscle monthly last year. Are you saying now that you changed your mind about this? Or maybe you are saying this particular prohormone cannot be absorbed orally, or what? And yes, honest feedback is important. It works, people know it, period.

Proviron is expected to work through the same mechanism. BB's have been using it for years, to spite that no in-vivo study was ever expensed to look at the anti-estrogenic effect of this steroid. Should we throw our tabs in the garbage until someone funds a study to tell us what we already know?

Shit man, even Biotest admits Viratase works.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

I hope we can have a cordial discussion without getting angry over all this.

I'm getting angry because I feel this is a repeat of the whole 1-AD "unsurpassed oral bioavailability thing". You knowingly made a false claim, and continue to make a false claim actually, that 1-AD has unsurpassed oral bioavailability. You knew full well from day one that the 1,4-andro (Boldione) is about 3 times better in this regard. Creative license doesn't cut it. You ignored it because you felt the company selling it at the time wasn't real competition. Regarless, the truth is the truth, and I would NOT have done that myself. I was red with anger when I finally pulled the paper on 1-AD. You sold a lot of 1-AD directly based on that claim I will remind you.

And had I for some reason done that, due to the respectful relationship that I think we have developed since, I would have surely fixed it by now. The ad still runs. Is it so hard to change it to "High oral Bioavailability" or something?

Pat, I don't mind you saying your product is better. Hell, we are all in business. But please play by the rules. Comparing Viratase to Chrysin is ridiculous. I know you know it. You could have easily talked up your product without pissing on mine.

I really want to have a respectful competitive relationships with you Pat. This is a huge industry, and there is room for plenty of innovative companies. And I personally enjoy arguing over the facts with guys like you and Par. I think we all keep each other on our toes. But I hate it when I start to see you slide out of bounds like you do from time to time; it takes a lot of the fun out of this for me.

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

Pat, you spoke quite matter-of-factly about the strong anti-estrogenic effects of DHT and 5-alpha androstanedione (Viratase) in Muscle monthly last year. Are you saying now that you changed your mind about this? Or maybe you are saying this particular prohormone cannot be absorbed orally, or what? And yes, honest feedback is important. It works, people know it, period.

Proviron is expected to work through the same mechanism. BB's have been using it for years, to spite that no in-vivo study was ever expensed to look at the anti-estrogenic effect of this steroid. Should we throw our tabs in the garbage until someone funds a study to tell us what we already know?

Shit man, even Biotest admits Viratase works.

I spoke of theories Bill, just like I wrote about the theory of chrysin years ago (but as you notice, I never sold the stuff). If i had thought that 5-AA had the evidence to make it something worthwhile enough to sell as a supplement for oral consumption I would have sold it years ago. I knew about the science of DHT and 5-AA and estrogen, and knew where to get 5-AA before you were even in this biz. But I did not want to sell something that I did not feel met my qualifications for proven efficacy. If the stuff meets your qualifications then fine.

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Anti-estrogen supplements

I'm getting angry because I feel this is a repeat of the whole 1-AD "unsurpassed oral bioavailability thing". You knowingly made a false claim, and continue to make a false claim actually, that 1-AD has unsurpassed oral bioavailability. You knew full well from day one that the 1,4-andro (Boldione) is about 3 times better in this regard. Creative license doesn't cut it. You ignored it because you felt the company selling it at the time wasn't real competition. Regarless, the truth is the truth, and I would NOT have done that myself. I was red with anger when I finally pulled the paper on 1-AD. You sold a lot of 1-AD directly based on that claim I will remind you.

And had I for some reason done that, due to the respectful relationship that I think we have developed since, I would have surely fixed it by now. The ad still runs. Is it so hard to change it to "High oral Bioavailability" or something?

Pat, I don't mind you saying your product is better. Hell, we are all in business. But please play by the rules. Comparing Viratase to Chrysin is ridiculous. I know you know it. You could have easily talked up your product without pissing on mine.

I really want to have a respectful competitive relationships with you Pat. This is a huge industry, and there is room for plenty of innovative companies. And I personally enjoy arguing over the facts with guys like you and Par. I think we all keep each other on our toes. But I hate it when I start to see you slide out of bounds like you do from time to time; it takes a lot of the fun out of this for me.

I never intended to knock your product. You somehow thought that I was, but I was not. I just think that my aromatase inhibitor is the first one on the market that has been proven, and that is what i said. My definition of proven is in-vivo activity. You took exception to that, because you think that in-vitro is good enough and/or that your customers like your stuff. I also never compared viratase to chrysin except to say that both were marketed based solely on in-vitro evidence and neither have been proven to work in-vivo.

I don't think there is any more point in going on like this. It is just silly

 

[Reid232]

These are the people I buy my stuff from? Shit, makes me wonder how much YOU guys truly care about your customers and products!

 

[pa1ad]

These are the people I buy my stuff from? Shit, makes me wonder how much YOU guys truly care about your customers and products!

Awwwwwwww, and now aren't we just a sensitive little wussy boy?

Is mine and Bill's little tiff making you feel all uneasy and scared? Have you peed yourself? there there......

I care alot about my customers. But not when they behave like little panty stains

 

[1fast400]

Shit, makes me wonder how much YOU guys truly care about your customers and products!

What type of ignorant comment is that? At what point has either person said anything that deals with the customers? You think these guys don't care about their products? Did you not READ this page or something???? Each person is defending their product. Unreal.

 

[1fast400]

Patrick:

What is the time frame on this new product?

 

[pa1ad]

Patrick:

What is the time frame on this new product?

A month probably. If we do not explode our building or our workers do not end up in the hospital with third degree chemical burns from the shit used to make the stuff. You never know

 

[Reid232]

Awwwwwwww, and now aren't we just a sensitive little wussy boy?

Is mine and Bill's little tiff making you feel all uneasy and scared? Have you peed yourself? there there......

I care alot about my customers. But not when they behave like little panty stains

LMAO, it's amazing how tuff people are on forums isn't it. "Wussy Boy", wow, that's a good one I will have to remember that one....wussy boy .

 

[pa1ad]

A month probably. If we do not explode our building or our workers do not end up in the hospital with third degree chemical burns from the shit used to make the stuff. You never know

Last year one of our guys had to go to the hospital when a line broke and androsol sprayed him in the eye at high velocity (we were making androsol for biotest). Wasn't wearing his safety glasses

A few months prior to that a former employee added a chemical too fast to a reactor making 1-AD and the solvent boiled and sprayed about 100K worth of 1-AD and methanol out the side of the building.

Then 3 years ago, a still used to make cyclodiol exploded and sprayed a fireball about 30 feet up in the air and blew out windows in our building and in adjacent houses in Seymour. The whole town was shut down for a few hours. this luckily happened at night, or there would have been fatalities.

5 years ago we were trying to make CLA from a novel method i developed. My partner ignorantly cut a line and sprayed mesyl chloride over both of us. Mesyl chloride is a horribly toxic and corrosive chemical whose vapors alone burn the living fuck out of your eyes and skin. I threw off my lab coat and put my head in the sink for several minutes and then went out to check on my partner who had taken his clothes off and was freaking out. I had to spray him for a hose for several minutes in his underwear. I could not enter the building cuz it burned my eyes, but somehow my partner sucked up enough courage to go back in there and at least begin to clean up the mess.

So, just goes to show you that making supplements from scratch is not all fun and games. Its also another reason why i don't like pansy asses like that dude complaining that supplement companies just don't care about him

 

[Reid232]

"Pansy Asses" are the two guys complaining and fighting with each other. Anyways, I am done with this childish name calling, later Patty.

 

[Baddogg]

shut up and eat some 1-ad and you'll be fine...lol

and I've tried it and I like it for those would want a piece

 

[pa1ad]

"Pansy Asses" are the two guys complaining and fighting with each other. Anyways, I am done with this childish name calling, later Patty.

Don't let the door hit you in the ass

 

[cool_sub]

How much is this product likely to retail for.

Will you also be able to use this product successfully with roids such as d-bol?

 

[pa1ad]

How much is this product likely to retail for.

Will you also be able to use this product successfully with roids such as d-bol?

I don't know how much it will retail for. Don't expect it to be dirt cheap though

I hope it can be used successfully with d-bol. Thats the whole point