Another run at the 5x5

[SDHW]

Hey guys,

I just finished unloading, to make a long story short I was using the advanced version, turned out to be a little too much, and I should be able to make faster progress with the intermediate. Due to the much-needed advice from some good bros here, I did 3 weeks of unloading (3x3) to allow for any accumulated fatigue to subside. well, I thought I would start out somewhat low on my numbers. I took my last few days of 3x3 numbers and put them into week four, and took 2.5% or 7.5% off of this number and put it into week one.

However, my first workout on Monday was tough, the weight felt heaver that it did in the 3x3, and I missed a few reps on some of them on the last set. I shouldnt be doing this this early. here are my numbers. After I did 2-3 warm up sets.

Squat
225x5
275x5
315x5
365x5
415x3

Bench
135x5
225x5
275x5
305x5
335x4 <-- prolly could have squeezed another one out if I had a spotter

Row
135x5
155x5
175x5
205x5
225x5

All the weight felt very heavy. I have the excel sheet, and so I plugged the 5rm in and used these numbers from that. Of course I rounded up or down the numbers.

Here is the weight that I used to start this with, However they are lower than my real 5RM!

Squat 455lbs I have done
Bench 365lbs
Deadlift 365lbs
Row 245lb
Push press 225lb.

I know people will say, lower the weight, thats fine and all, but I have lifted more weight on all these lifts before. Maybe i just need to get back into the 5 sets, b/c for the past 3 weeks I have only been doing 3 sets. Im sure that has some type of effect. I just want to make sure that I dont start too heavy and stall. I want to be able to progress by 2.5% weekly!

 

[SDHW]

bump for info

 

[future]

The idea of 5x5 is being missed. It still is valuable even if you are squatting 365 x5 for your top set. You build towards it. You start too heavy and the cycle is over quickly. If you didnt I would suggest taking a week off of just very light work for reps in the 10-15 range. Nothing strenuous but still giving your joints a rest. Then start the cycle up maybe 20-25% less than where you finished at.

 

[enigma4dub]

There suppoused to be real maxes not best case scenario. Also you took percentages from your 3's. Start @say 70% of your 5's. Dude you blew your load way too early. Use some common sense, your goal is to progress for 10 weeks. The weights will get heavy soon enough.

 

[future]

There suppoused to be real maxes not best case scenario

Great point.

 

[SDHW]

There suppoused to be real maxes not best case scenario. Also you took percentages from your 3's. Start @say 70% of your 5's. Dude you blew your load way too early. Use some common sense, your goal is to progress for 10 weeks. The weights will get heavy soon enough.

I guess I didnt make it clear, I have done more that what I have put down. I went even lower that my real max for a reason. I wanted to start low and work my way up slower, my problem is, I just used these weights for my last 3x3 day easy, now on my first 1x5 day, the weight felt heavy.

also im not sure what your talking about as far as the 70%. From what the program reads, and what I have been told. I put all my maxes in week 4, and went back by 2.5% each week untill week 1.

 

[enigma4dub]

I assumed you were doing a df. Usually week 1, a good place to start is 80% of your 5's, regardless of your 3's. You should not be anywhere near failure in week one. If you are ,then you were off with weight selection. And obviously from your lay off we are not talking about an accumulation of fatigue.

 

[enigma4dub]

In re-reading your first post, You are only progressing between 2.5%-7.5% between weeks 1-4 total. so in week one you are in the ninety percentile of your relevant maxes. you are leaving no room for progression.

 

[enigma4dub]

It sounds to me like you are mixing up the programs. Also for example 415 for a top set of squat in week 1 would mean you should be squating 498 for a top set in week 3. Also if you just ran heavy triples you very well could be loaded up still. But this really seems like bad weight selection.

 

[SDHW]

well this is how madcow, has it on his site, intermediate liner progression on the 5x5

 

[SDHW]

Bump for more info. I guess if I miss a lift, I should just keep it at the same weight, and do it again next week.

I also think that Im used to jumping up my weight bigger than 12.5% each set. so I could be building up more fatigue faster...might take some time to get used to it

 

[SDHW]

bump again for more help

 

[bigred133]

Since you are still asking for help I will attempt to answer your questions based upon my understanding of the (madcow) Bill Starr 5x5 Linear Version for Intermediate Lifters and training theory posted on madcow's site.

My first question for you sdhw is: Have you read and understood the entire program description and the Training Primer and Training Theory articles at:

http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Linear_5x5.htm

You say:

"I took my last few days of 3x3 numbers and put them into week four"

You are supposed to put your 5RM at week four, not your 3RM. Is 455 your 3x3 weight?

The program description says:
"Put your current 5 rep maxes at week 4, figure out what 2.5% of the number is and go back and put that for week 3, do that back until you get to week 1."

Using the spreadsheet to calculate, if your "3x3 numbers" or 3RM is 455 then your 5RM is 428.

Based upon those numbers you should be doing this

wk1: 397
wk2: 407
wk3: 418
wk4: 428

You work backwards 2.5% each week to get from week 4 to week 1.

"I just used these weights for my last 3x3 day easy, now on my first 1x5 day, the weight felt heavy"

Of course it did. You massively increased volume going from 3x3 to 5x5, even if it is the Intermediate ramped version. Calculate the total tonnage from the two different workouts and you will see.

The other suggestion that was given to you was that you start the Intermediate program at 80% of your 5RM. The program description for the advanced version that you attempted talks about "A conservative number to start with might be 80% of your Week 3 PR lift" While this may not set any PR's any time soon, what this will do is gradually condition your system to output the total workload volume that the 5x5 will require.

I think your condition is unique and may require dropping back to 80% to start.

madcow's site suggests that you start with the beginner 3x5 workout in the Starting Strength book before you even attempt the Intermediate 5x5. Maybe that is what you need to do since you fouled things up by starting with the Advanced workout before you could handle it.

BEGINNERS: Do yourselves a giant favor and just order the book, Starting Strength. I'd need to write a book to teach you what you need to know and Mark Rippetoe has already done it better than I possibly could have. Save the $30 on whatever bogus supplement you were going to buy and do something that will pay dividends for years and get you the fastest results possible now.

The book even includes a testing process that helps you determine your starting weight.

I'm still making gains on that program myself, and it gives me plenty of time to read about and try to understand dual factor training theory before I attempt to implement it too soon.

I hope this helps.

You can check out a recent discussion of the 5x5 here.

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=522430&page=1&pp=20

 

[SDHW]

Thanks big red for your input,

I know I said I used my 3x3 in week 4, I should have said, is that I put a conservitive number in week 4. all my 5 reps maxes were higher, but I wanted a good run at it. then I subtracked the 2.5% from week 3-1. So I thought I was going to have it somewhat easy. and it wasnt. so I did start light, not sure what is going on. im going to lighen it up another 50lbs or so. and run those numbers. and dont get me wrong, I know the program is going to be tough, but I thinking in my head that is week one is super tought, how the hell am i going to at 2.5% to that.

for example a month a go on my last 1x5 set I did 505. so I thought I would use 455 to start off with. but that felt heavy on my first day of 5x5.

im going to put in some new nubers and see how that goes

Here are the numbers that Im going to reduce to.

squat 405lbs
Bench 335lbs
Dead 315lbs
Push press 205lbs

 

[SDHW]

Mondays workout was fine, The true test will be tomorrow when I have deads, they have been giving me some trouble. Its been a long time since I have done then, I guess its payback...

 

[SDHW]

Todays workout was great, I hit every lift, It wasnt too heavy, felt good. I even did an extra set of push press, didnt even know it. I was going good.

 

[SDHW]

Looks like im the only one reading this thread.

I had a great workout today; lifts went up good, tons of energy today. my triples were easy. Knock on wood. Looking forward to next week.

 

[enigma4dub]

Looks like im the only one reading this thread.

I had a great workout today; lifts went up good, tons of energy today. my triples were easy. Knock on wood. Looking forward to next week.

how are you running triples already? didnt you start this thread on the 13th?

 

[crossy]

You answered your own question in your first post. You have been doing 3 X 3 and moved to 5 X 5. If you are struggling in week 1 you have obviously over estimated what you can lift (at this point in time) lower the weight and see how you go if you feel you can lift more in a few weeks time then add the weight then.

Crossy

 

[get456]

Here are the numbers that Im going to reduce to.

squat 405lbs
Bench 335lbs
Dead 315lbs
Push press 205lbs

Those seem better than your intial numbers, but something still seems amiss... The 5RM you are using for squats is 405, but deads is only 315? Same issue with your rows in your first post, rows are listed as 245, but dead at 365... I cant see how you can possibly row 245 but only dead 365. I am currently at 345 5RM for deads and 210 5RM for rows on monday of my 5th week of the intermediate 5x5.

It just doesnt seem like those weights compute, if your dead is correct then there is no way your back is strong enough to row that much, if your row is correct then your dead should be WAY higher. And considering your squat your dead should DEF be much higher.

Just seems like something is missing somewhere

 

[SDHW]

Those seem better than your intial numbers, but something still seems amiss... The 5RM you are using for squats is 405, but deads is only 315? Same issue with your rows in your first post, rows are listed as 245, but dead at 365... I cant see how you can possibly row 245 but only dead 365. I am currently at 345 5RM for deads and 210 5RM for rows on monday of my 5th week of the intermediate 5x5.

It just doesnt seem like those weights compute, if your dead is correct then there is no way your back is strong enough to row that much, if your row is correct then your dead should be WAY higher. And considering your squat your dead should DEF be much higher.

Just seems like something is missing somewhere

I was doing 3x3 to help unload and recover from fatigue build up. I ran the triples because that what the liner program calls for on Friday. first 4 sets are the same as monday, and then an increase of 2.5% for a triple. and then a final set of 8 of the third set.

My dead is low, because I havent done them in 4 years. I am coming off some knee injures from football, and couldnt dead. or squat. but do to the fact that the squats are 3 times a week, they have took off in weights. so it makes sense that my row is close to my dead. I have been doing them all along. Soon enough my deadlift should greatly exceeded my row.

As for the other comment on my weights, those are not my real 5rm, My real 5rm is about 50-70lbs higher on each lift. I just started very low to give myself a good run with the 5x5.

My last run, I started too hight, and got stuck. I just wanted to keep adding more and more weight. so after a few weeks I just crapped out, and the weight started dropping, so I then weight 3 weeks of 3x3 twice a week, to recover from this per madcow2 advice. Which worked.

so it will take me a few weeks to get back to my actual 5rm, but I think it will be worth it in the end. I wont crap out so soon.

 

[get456]

that was part of the issue this time too though right? you got stuck again.

I wanted to start low and work my way up slower, my problem is, I just used these weights for my last 3x3 day easy, now on my first 1x5 day, the weight felt heavy.

so something is not working.

Also in the intermediate program there is no 1x5 day.

monday- 5x5
wednesday- 4 sets 5 reps
friday- 4 sets 5 reps, 1 set 3 reps, 1 set 8 reps

by using the numbers you supplied in the first thread, you can already see that you didnt do the math correctly

If your 5RM's you wanted to use were as follows:
(your words)

Squat 455lbs I have done
Bench 365lbs
Deadlift 365lbs
Row 245lb
Push press 225lb.

and you mentioned you thought those were actually LESS than your true 5RM.

Then your MONDAY workout would have looked like this:
Squat:
211x5
264x5
316x5
369x5
422x5

Bench
169x5
211x5
254x5
296x5
338x5

Row
114x5
142x5
170x5
199x5
227x5

You actually did:

Squat
225x5
275x5
315x5
365x5
415x3

Bench
135x5
225x5
275x5
305x5
335x4 <-- prolly could have squeezed another one out if I had a spotter

Row
135x5
155x5
175x5
205x5
225x5

So a few things that jump right out:
1- your progression is kinda messed up, close on the rows, but not even close on the Squats or bench. The jumps you make can really add up, especially in the later weeks, let alone WEEK 1!
2- You are 4 weeks away from hitting your maxes but you werent able to even finish your squats or bench, so you DEFINITELY miscalculated your maxes.

----Simple english - they arent your maxes.

3-Microloading is key to this program, which you are not doing. My guess is that you havent bought the chains (or plates yet) and if you dont have them yet, then you didnt have them last time. Def something you want to get ur mitts on.

I am not sure if you specifically said you had looked at the madcow website or spreadsheet, but just by looking at the weights that you did, u surely didnt look at the spreadsheet to see what you should have been doing.


The key to this whole program, and the whole theory in general, is linear progressiom... Calculating progress and hitting the gym with a specific plan and specific goals. In fact, Ripptoe/Kilgore's newest book is called PRACTICAL PROGRAMMING for strength... that should tell ya something

my advice would be to seriously rethink your maxes beyond just "redoing" them on paper, you need to go to the gym and find out exactly what they are.. And considering that you are as far off as you are, when you are saying that you just finished a 3x3 program, tells me that you probably missed something there too.

In fact by looking at your lifts... I would put your last set of squats and last set of bench into the spreadsheet... which would make your 5RM on those two lifts --
Squat- 391
Bench- 325

A LONG ways away from your original calculations of 455 and 365. Further to that... if you missed your lifts by that much I would def do an honest self assesment on your form, making sure you arent cheating to even get that weight up.

Only other tidbit is (i believe someone else mentioned this) you may have accumulated fatigue from your last run up which is preventing you from hitting the lifts you think you should. but IMO that seems unlikely based on how far you are from your numbers.

 

[SDHW]

I put some answers in the thread, take a look, thanks for your advice.

that was part of the issue this time too though right? you got stuck again.



so something is not working.

Also in the intermediate program there is no 1x5 day.

monday- 5x5
wednesday- 4 sets 5 reps
friday- 4 sets 5 reps, 1 set 3 reps, 1 set 8 reps

Yes there is. I was told that when ramping up to top weight of 5, and you are still doing 5 sets, we call it 1x5. When you are doing all 5 sets with same weight we call it 5x5. so when I say 1x5, I was talking about ramping up weights.


by using the numbers you supplied in the first thread, you can already see that you didnt do the math correctly

If your 5RM's you wanted to use were as follows:
(your words)



and you mentioned you thought those were actually LESS than your true 5RM.

Then your MONDAY workout would have looked like this:
Squat:
211x5
264x5
316x5
369x5
422x5

Bench
169x5
211x5
254x5
296x5
338x5

Row
114x5
142x5
170x5
199x5
227x5

You actually did:





So a few things that jump right out:
1- your progression is kinda messed up, close on the rows, but not even close on the Squats or bench. The jumps you make can really add up, especially in the later weeks, let alone WEEK 1!
2- You are 4 weeks away from hitting your maxes but you werent able to even finish your squats or bench, so you DEFINITELY miscalculated your maxes.

I think there is confusion in this thread. I will try to explain. I was told by madcow to do 3 weeks of two days per week triples, (3x3) to help recover. after doing this. I was told to take the weight that I did in the triple or my 5rm and put that in week 4, take off 2.5% each week until week one. I think one of the issues was, that 1) after doing 3 week of only twice a week in the gym, and was fully recovered but also a little de conditioned. 2) I think jumping right back into the 5x5 was too much volume for the weight; I needed some time to get used to the volume.

so my first post was thrown out. I took an additional 50lbs off the lifts. and used those. I re-did my excel sheet with the new numbers. I think you are getting confused. I tried to keep everything in one thread. And for those who didn’t go threw every post it gets confusing.

my workouts are going great now. I expect it will take 2-3 extra weeks to get back to where I was, but no big deal.


----Simple english - they arent your maxes.

3-Microloading is key to this program, which you are not doing. My guess is that you havent bought the chains (or plates yet) and if you dont have them yet, then you didnt have them last time. Def something you want to get ur mitts on.

I am not sure if you specifically said you had looked at the madcow website or spreadsheet, but just by looking at the weights that you did, u surely didnt look at the spreadsheet to see what you should have been doing.

Yes, I did, and use the numbers in the spread sheet. however I have to round up or down on the weight, sometimes the weight dont come out right, this is where we get into the microloading, where im not a bit fan of. as long as I can put 5lbs on the bar each week, I should be fine.


The key to this whole program, and the whole theory in general, is linear progressiom... Calculating progress and hitting the gym with a specific plan and specific goals. In fact, Ripptoe/Kilgore's newest book is called PRACTICAL PROGRAMMING for strength... that should tell ya something

my advice would be to seriously rethink your maxes beyond just "redoing" them on paper, you need to go to the gym and find out exactly what they are.. And considering that you are as far off as you are, when you are saying that you just finished a 3x3 program, tells me that you probably missed something there too.

I only used the 3x3 for unloading reasons, not to set new records.

In fact by looking at your lifts... I would put your last set of squats and last set of bench into the spreadsheet... which would make your 5RM on those two lifts --
Squat- 391
Bench- 325

A LONG ways away from your original calculations of 455 and 365. Further to that... if you missed your lifts by that much I would def do an honest self assesment on your form, making sure you arent cheating to even get that weight up.

I could walk into the gym right now and bang out a 500lbs squat no problem, so im not just trying to guess my 5rm, they really are. It is tought to go from somewhat a bodybuilding type workout, to this type where you work out at 95% of your 1rep max, It takes time to get used to.

Only other tidbit is (i believe someone else mentioned this) you may have accumulated fatigue from your last run up which is preventing you from hitting the lifts you think you should. but IMO that seems unlikely based on how far you are from your numbers.

I already covered this, I think I should just make a Training journal, this thread had gotten too confusing for people to keep up.. thanks for your tips

 

[youngguns]

how can someone bench 365, and dead 365? Thats insane, I dead 1.7 times what I bench.

 

[get456]

I put some answers in the thread, take a look, thanks for your advice.



I already covered this, I think I should just make a Training journal, this thread had gotten too confusing for people to keep up.. thanks for your tips

i do see what you are saying... it was a little confusing to follow, i did read all the threads though

As for adding 5lbs per week, (which would mean you didnt need to microload) that aint gonna happen... that would mean you would add 220lbs to your lifts in a year



that is why microloading is so important, continual progress no matter how small (1.25lbs or less)