Am I overreaching?

[oso0690]

Or is my body just getting used to the same thing over and over? Here's the story:

After my 3rd run I immediately tried another SF, but yeah, after the first week I decided to just take a week off doing very very light stuff and then started my 4th

Sooooo... This is my 4th run on the 5x5 linear, and I started back 6 weeks before I hit PRs. Well I just started week 2 today, and in the gym I nearly failed on squats and rows. Why am I declining sooo much like this? I was thinking that when I fail again on most of my lifts whatever week it happens on, take 2 weeks off and do high rep tendon and ligament health as ANOTHER deload. But I don't get it. If my body's just getting used to it, I should just be able to get my last PRs, not decline in it. Anybody know??

(note: yes I'm eating enough and i'm getting roughly 8 hours of sleep a night)

 

[fallingeggs]

why dont you look at Periodized/Dual Factor 5x5 http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/5x5_Program/Periodized_5x5.htm
would be a long the same lines but maybe enough of a change of reps to get you past this sticking point.

your lifts just have a lot of room so i really do not know why you are having a hard time. maybe mental block?

just tossing it out there.

edit: what do you mean almost failed? you needed help with the rep (which would be a fail)? as long as you are not failing you are still moving up. I 'almost' fail on my last rep but i still hit PRs each week. Also, if you had a way to microload you should give that a try; increase weight total by 2 pounds not 5 for a while.

 

[Cynical Simian]

An extended (> 1 week) deload would be one option. I don't think you need to jump to the infrequent PRs of the dual factor version at this stage in your lifting career.

Also, remember my post in your old thread about not being able to train 5s indefinitely? Do triples for a while if you want to work with heavier weights, or higher reps if you think your joints need a break.

 

[oso0690]

I know, i see many SF journals moving way more weight than me and still progressing.

Are you recommending the Dual factor for a one time go to change it up with the 3x3 for the last month and then go back to single factor to see if I am able to gain any more? I'm not sure if it's a mental block, I don't really care what plates and how much weights on there, as long as I gain pounds.

 

[oso0690]

An extended (> 1 week) deload would be one option. I don't think you need to jump to the infrequent PRs of the dual factor version at this stage in your lifting career.

Also, remember my post in your old thread about not being able to train 5s indefinitely? Do triples for a while if you want to work with heavier weights, or higher reps if you think your joints need a break.

Yes, i remember your old post about it that's what brought my attention towards my body getting used to the 5x5s I was thinking about triples for 8 sets? but I don't know exactly how to start that, what max do i rely on?? I can't do my 3 rep max because I'll never reach it lol.

 

[anotherbutters]

Have you been using 5 sets of 5 each time you ramp up? I agree with CS - next time you ramp up, try triples or doubles, or even higher reps like 8. Glenn Pendlay posted a while back about always changing something when you reset and ramp up again. I'm currently trying a mix of flat 5x5s and some doubles. Have a look at the first post in my journal for the layout.

 

[Cynical Simian]

Just use the calculators on madcow's site to estimate your 3RM. Also, you don't necessarily have to ramp everything; you can do a sets-across layout as a mainly linear program (see AB's journal). You might have to deload a bit more frequently because of the greater weekly load, but it'll also increase your work capacity.

 

[fallingeggs]

I know, i see many SF journals moving way more weight than me and still progressing.

Are you recommending the Dual factor for a one time go to change it up with the 3x3 for the last month and then go back to single factor to see if I am able to gain any more? I'm not sure if it's a mental block, I don't really care what plates and how much weights on there, as long as I gain pounds.

I was trying to say pretty much the same thing as CS. I do not know to much about the dual factor training but i know it has all the triples which is what i was saying you should do. Try out triples for a while then change back to the normal 5x5. Or something that changes up reps for a while.

 

[oso0690]

edit: what do you mean almost failed? you needed help with the rep (which would be a fail)? as long as you are not failing you are still moving up. I 'almost' fail on my last rep but i still hit PRs each week. Also, if you had a way to microload you should give that a try; increase weight total by 2 pounds not 5 for a while.

well it was a close one lol. Like on rows, I had to hump the air a little bit on the last one. On squats..It's just where the sticking point is, right in the middle, just idling there for maybe 2 to 3 seconds, then busting through it. I was thinking about doing this as long as I can for the last time, then taking 2 weeks off to help my joints and such and to recover. then try a 3 sets of 8 scheme or something along those lines to change things up.

By the way what's a sets-across layout?

 

[Cynical Simian]

By the way what's a sets-across layout?

Same weight for all sets. (You'd do warmups with the bar and light weights as well, of course.)

 

[oso0690]

Same weight for all sets. (You'd do warmups with the bar and light weights as well, of course.)

ohhhhh lol thank you, I'll see what I can come up with as a routine.

 

[Protobuilder]

I'm a little late here, but first off, what you're doing right now is what it's really all about. This thread should be required reading so people can see the problem solving process involved. It's not a matter of failing, then jumping to some completely new program, and hoping for the best. You're trying to figure out what's wrong, and figure out how to make small adjustments while still applying the big picture principles.

Anyway . . . You are in week 2 and failing (or near failing) w/ weights that are about 6 weeks back from your last cycle PRs? That's strange. It should be pretty llight if you went back 6 weeks, and if you had a week off in between. I'd be interested to see exactly how you handled that week in between and see exactly how you set out your weights for this cycle. I say that b/c sometimes an "off" week doesn't look like an off week at all. Also, maybe you really grinded it out for 6 weeks and so setting back 6 weeks still has you at a near max weight? Just something to think about.

Like CS said, maybe you need more than a week break between cycles. This can be a tricky variable, IMO. I have real trouble figuring out just how long to deload, what to do during the deload, how hard to push at the end of a cycle, when to start my next cycle, etc. It's a tricky part of the overall programming, IMO.

Running 3x8 might be a nice change. Or doing several flat sets rather than 1x5 pyramids. All of which CS mentioned. And if you're just failing in one lift, it could be a matter of your body needing more variation than other people. Or maybe just need more variability in the lower body, or back, etc. See what I mean? This is pretty tricky and it's really a lot of trial and error over your lifting career. But, keep track of it all in your journal, and keep working through these short-term sticking points, and 5 years from now, you'll know that your chest grows best w/ 8 reps, and your legs grow best if you hit them twice a week w/ 5 reps, and your DL goes up when you're deadlifting once a week, etc. You'll be a smart trainee.

 

[oso0690]

Thanks for the reply proto, that cleared a lot up. My deload looked something like:

Monday
Squat
95x5
135x3

bench
95x5
115x3

row
65x5
95x3

wednesday
deadlifts
135x5
165x3

military
65x5
85x3

friday was the same as monday

Then went into my 4th run on SF.

 

[Protobuilder]

Were those weights near your max's from the end of your last cycle or are those backed off? If they're backed off, are they backed off a lot (e.g., what were your old max's)?

 

[oso0690]

Squat was 245x5
bench 185x5
row 140x5

deadlift 250x5
military130x5

They were pretty low compared to my maxes

 

[anotherbutters]

Maybe it was just one of those days.

 

[Protobuilder]

That's ^^ DEFINITELY a possibility. I got the impression that it was the whole week though. If just one day, don't sweat it.

You may be finding out that your body doesn't reward you if you back off the squat weight for a week or two. If I drop my squat weight radically for 2 weeks, I'll really struggle getting back to my old weights. In the future, for a deload, you might try keeping the weights heavy but reducing the volume considerably and cutting the frequency in half. Maybe it's just your squats that need that treatment.

 

[oso0690]

Maybe it was just one of those days.

I really hope so lol

Tomorrow i'll see if things feel as they should at 6 weeks before, but if not I'll repost on this thread.

 

[Cynical Simian]

Rather than having to do a 6-week ramp just to make any progress on your 5RM, why not try switching things up like AB, PB and I have done? Read PB's post above again and the post he made in your other thread - they're great summaries of some options and how you should think about training and making changes. Don't be afraid to change something, as long as you do it systematically.

 

[oso0690]

Okay, I'm thinking about changing things to 8x3. I'm going to use a little bit of my 5x5 for reference. Since 8x3 equals 24 reps and 5x5 equas 25 reps, i'm going to make the weight just a tiny bit higher than normal. I'm thinking about ramping all 8 sets...but that might be back breaking..so I was thinking about grouping them up in 2 sets, IE:95x2 115x2 135x2 155x2 all being 3 reps.

If I don't make it to week 6 or past, I'm guessing it's too much fatigue. So then I'm going to take off 2 weeks and just do high rep exercises excluding squats and deadlifts for joint health. (excluding squats because I have what I think is a very mild case of Patellar tendinitis and i eventually need to let that heal up a bit.) - also if you are saying oh well that's why my squat feels like it's stalling, then that just leaves unanswered questions to why my rows and militaries are stalling too.

Any input? Am I doing right, wrong...?

 

[oso0690]

Thank you everyone, i decided to make my very own and first template i'm going to be using and you all gave me great ideas lol. this is taken from my journal, i just think this thread is going to get more feedback:

This is based off of the linear progression, where I'm going to add weight to the bar weekly but start off a few weeks back then hit prs for a couple of weeks. I'm basing the maxes closely to the 5x5s since I think that it's very close to being the same while the 5x5 equaling 25 total reps and this equalling 24 total reps and I'm thinking being close in tonnage? I don't know if I'm using that word right lol

Monday
Squat 8x3
Bench 8x3
row 8x3
All ramped up slowly with 4 sets, then 3 top sets (Ie: 95x3 115x3 135x3 155x3 175x3x3

Wednesday
squat 6x3 3 sets of ramp and then the last 3 sets with a steady weight.

Deadlift 6x3
military 6x3
Both of these like this: (Ie: 95x3, 115x3x2, 135x3, 155x3x2)

Friday
Squat 6x3
bench 6x3
row 6x3
All of these just like wednesdays deadlift and military)

Squat 1x3
bench 1x3
row 1x3
All of these being 2.5% higher for the records just like on the 5x5

Squat 1x8
bench 1x8
row 1x8
All of these as a backdown set with the 3rd set weight

Just wanting some feedback to this, think it's good, not so good.. lol

 

[Protobuilder]

The 5x5 on Madcow's site has built in light, medium, & heavy days. Are you doing that or are you just doing less volume on Monday than on Friday (e.g., it says 8x3 and then 6x3)? Ideally, you'd have a progression method set up, so that Friday for example, you hit a top set, and then on Monday, you add either more reps to that set or you work in some volume, all with the goal of doing even more weight the NEXT Friday. I can't tell if 6x3 going into 8x3 means much here. You're doing one top set on Monday, then 2 top sets on Friday. It could definitely work . . . it's just that 2 sets might not be enough volume to really help you push up that 1x3 max set on Monday.

I also see no reason to hit your sets twice (e.g., 115x3x2). The goal is to warm up, get enough practice reps in, and then push that top set (or several top sets, depending how you're doing it). I don't see any particular reason to do 3s on the warmups either, franky. Warmup w/ a few sets of 5 or something, and then go into your worksets, or maybe ramp a couple of triples up to a top set, etc. I understand the beauty in 6x3 or 8x3, but there's no reason it couldn't look like:

10xbar
5x95
5x115
5x135
3x3x155

or something like that.

 

[Cynical Simian]

PB, did you miss the 1x3 (for a total of 7x3 + backoff) on Friday with the goal for next Monday's top 3x2?

I think it looks quite reasonable. In fact, it looks a lot like the program I designed and sent to madcow in a PM to critique when I was making the same transition away from cookie-cutters. (I ended up changing the layout a bit, but that's not the issue... )

Maybe switch to a 4-set ramp of triples for some volume then 3x3 at the top on Monday (so 7x3, slightly fewer total reps because you're doing more reps with your heaviest weights). That'd give you the same number of changes you've been doing and avoid the pain in the ass of doubling warmup sets or spending most of the workout changing plates.

 

[Protobuilder]

PB, did you miss the 1x3 (for a total of 7x3 + backoff) on Friday with the goal for next Monday's top 3x2?

Yes. LoL

I think it looks quite reasonable.

Drop the double warmups and it'll work. Heck, there's no "perfect' routine other than what works best for you at any point in time. Frankly, it's a lot of trial and error and troubleshooting. Good luck.

 

[carlsuen]

oso.. it looks great to me.. props!

 

[oso0690]

Thanks everyone, I changed the monday to 3 top sets, as CS said, but dropping the double sets on wednesday and friday be good? That'd end up being 3x3 ramp, then 9 total sets with the max weight. I put in the double sets, for more form perfection, and more volume enough so that it wouldn't overtax me. What do you all think?

 

[Svetislav_aka_Waczlaff]

Hi,

maybe this could help you- find it in the net, it's from Glenn Pendlay different Stages / Levels of the 5x5 :

Stage 1:
o Monday = 5x5 (pyramid)
o Wed. = 5x5 (20% lighter than Mon. or front squats)
o Friday = 5x5 pyramid to PR if you got all 5 reps on Monday

Stage 2:
o Same as above except reduce volume of ramping sets on Monday (do a few singles or doubles on sets 3 & 4)

Stage 3 (increase Monday’s volume):
o Monday = 5x5 same weight (using less than single set PR)
o Wed. = no change
o Friday = 5x5 pyramid to PR
o w/ more volume, it takes a few weeks to work back up to PR
-- Programming notes from Glenn: here, you might choose to push Monday or Friday hard for a cycle . . . e.g., build up over a few weeks to a new 5x5 PR on Monday while making Friday a lighter day by pushing for a top set that is maybe 5-10 pounds heavier than your Monday sets (then Monday, you’ll get 5 sets of 5 w/ Friday’s weight). Then in the next cycle, swap it around and push Friday’s top set while making Monday’s sets lighter.
-- You can reduce Monday’s weights as you near the end of the cycle so you have more gas to push PRs on Friday

Stage 4 (reduce volume, increase intensity by using lower reps)
-- A few ideas:
- Push 5 sets of triples or singles on Friday; keep everything else the same
- Monday, either go lighter or keep pushing for 5x5 PR . . . if you do the former, you can reduce the number of sets on Friday by 1 each week so that by the end, you do a true PR max single on the last Friday (in the last few weeks, you can even go lighter on Monday so you’re ready for big PRs on Friday)
- Do Westside DE style squats on Friday . . . either keep it light & push for 5x5 PR on Mondays or add a heavy single at the end of your DE work on Friday

Stage 5 –5x5 w/ the same weight
o Monday = 5x5 same weight
o Wed. = 5x5 same weight, but lighter than Mon.
o Fri. = 5x5 same weight
o After a few weeks of this higher volume, reduce volume and go for PRs