ALA study question (macro, fonz)

[MrMakaveli]

Biol Chem. 2003 Sep 12;278(37):34823-33. Epub 2003 Jun 30.



Alpha-lipoic acid inhibits adipocyte differentiation by regulating
pro-adipogenic transcription factors via mitogen-activated protein kinase pathways.

Cho KJ, Moon HE, Moini H, Packer L, Yoon DY, Chung AS.

Department of Biological Sciences, Korea Advanced Institute of Science and
echnology, Daejeon 305-701, South Korea.

They dont specified if they used strictly the R-isomer to racemate, is it more likely R was reponsible for the results or could it have been a function of the S-ALA?

 

[Fonz]

Thats the article Ulter has been hiding for some time...not sure if its circulation around the boards just yet, but pretty much gives you a good indication as to just how versatile a supplement R-ALA is:

Alpha-lipoic acid inhibits adipocyte differentiation by regulating
pro-adipogenic transcription factors via mitogen-activated protein kinase pathways.

So basically R-ALA/ALA stops fat cells from dividing and forming new fat cells.

Now, we all know insulin is the prime culprit for fat storage....so for adipocyte to be halted or slowed down insulin levels have to be low.

S-ALA in either is raw form or in its component compound ALA, raises insulin levels(This is well documented).

Therefore, the only answer that remains is R-ALA. It lowers blood glucose directly and insulin indirectly(through the reduction of blood glucose), therefore making it possible for R-ALA to have the effect discussed in the abstract.....inhibiting adipocyte division into other adipocytes.(i.e. Fat cells dividing and forming new fat cells)

What does this mean?

That R-ALA is a very good supplement to take when bulking.

E.g. As your carb stores become full, your body starts converting the excess carbs into fat via de novo lipogenesis...and the more carbs you eat the more fat you store. Ultimately, your current fat cells become full and then divide in order for them to not to burst.
End result is an increase in fat cells and and increase in fat stored.(This largely depends on your gender, body type and a multitude of things....but the new fat cells formed will be in the region where you tend to preferentially store fat the easiest)

Seems that R-ALA reduces the storage of fat(Again, this is well documented), and if by some chance you happen to eat too many carbs, the R-ALA will inhibit the division of the full fat cell(At that certain part in your body where you preferentially store fat), and the fat will then be preferentially stored in a region where the fat cells are not so full.


I can go into a lot more detail, but thats the bare bones outline of what the abstract means. I actually read the abstract on the plane to Madrid. It will always continue to amaze me the sheer amount of benefits R-ALA offers the consumer. The study pretty much puts the ultimate and final stamp of approval regarding R-ALA for the bb'er/athlete.


Fonz

 

[DecaBane]

damn, awesome, where can I get some r-ala? how much to take per day while bulking? needs to be cycled? I know I could probably find all these answers by searching but Im in the mood to chat today.

 

[Fonz]

damn, awesome, where can I get some r-ala? how much to take per day while bulking? needs to be cycled? I know I could probably find all these answers by searching but Im in the mood to chat today.

At the AF Store:

https://www.anabolicfitness.net/shop/

 

[Animal]

Well, somebody got snowed because the study DOES NOT say one or the other and I like how the abstract wasn't even presented.

Ahh, I'll just believe it .............................

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Well, somebody got snowed because the study DOES NOT say one or the other and I like how the abstract wasn't even presented.

Ahh, I'll just believe it .............................

wierd, that snow must have frozen your brain or you have not actually read the study

"R form of
-lipoic acid (LA) was kindly provided by
BASF AG (Ludwigshafen, Germany). "

 

[Animal]

Biol Chem. 2003 Sep 12;278(37):34823-33. Epub 2003 Jun 30.



Alpha-lipoic acid inhibits adipocyte differentiation by regulating
pro-adipogenic transcription factors via mitogen-activated protein kinase pathways.

Cho KJ, Moon HE, Moini H, Packer L, Yoon DY, Chung AS.

Department of Biological Sciences, Korea Advanced Institute of Science and
echnology, Daejeon 305-701, South Korea.

They dont specified if they used strictly the R-isomer to racemate, is it more likely R was reponsible for the results or could it have been a function of the S-ALA?

Macro, you are just pure jackass, aren't you? This is the original post and the guy asked the same thing.

I didn't see you or fonz or anybody post the abstract and anybody could type in what you just did.

Ridiculous.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

its not in the abstract, its in the text. the study uses R lipoic.

this is the abstract

Obesity is associated with a number of pathological
disorders such as non-insulin-dependent diabetes, hypertension,
hyperlipidemia, and cardiovascular diseases.

-Lipoic acid (LA) has been demonstrated to activate
the insulin signaling pathway and to exert insulinlike
actions in adipose and muscle cells. Based on this
similarity LA is expected to promote adipogenesis in
pre-adipocytes. Here, however, we report that LA inhibited
differentiation of 3T3-L1 pre-adipocytes induced by
a hormonal mixture or troglitazone. Northern blot analysis
of cells demonstrated that this inhibition was accompanied
with attenuated expression of adipocytespecific
fatty acid-binding protein and lipoprotein
lipase. Electrophoretic mobility shift assay and Western
blot analysis of cells demonstrated that LA modulates
transcriptional activity and/or expression of a set of anti-
or pro-adipogenic transcription factors. LA treatment
of 3T3-L1 pre-adipocytes also resulted in prolonged activation
of major mitogen-activated protein kinase signaling
pathways but showed little or no effect on the
activity of the insulin receptor/Akt signaling pathway.
These findings suggest that LA inhibits insulin or the
hormonal mixture-induced differentiation of 3T3-L1
pre-adipocytes by modulating activity and/or expression
of pro- or anti-adipogenic transcription factors
mainly through activating the MAPK pathways.

 

[Animal]

So you are calling the original starter of this thread an ass because he didn't read the text?

And fonz supplied the answer and he never indicated it was R, so maybe he is the ass?

 

[macrophage69alpha]

its your post thats quoted..

you do the math.. if you can..

 

[Animal]

AHAHA!

Damn you are just the wittiest one around here, aren't you?

I can't do it, so could you do it for me?

 

[Animal]

The study also has to do with the OBESE as well as NOT providing ANY citations for the first two statements of the abstract. I guess they couldn't find anything to support those statements or is it just commonplace to say whatever they want in the intro like others do?

Not too scientific.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

The study also has to do with the OBESE as well as NOT providing ANY citations for the first two statements of the abstract. I guess they couldn't find anything to support those statements or is it just commonplace to say whatever they want in the intro like others do?

Not too scientific.

abstracts dont have citations. anyone "scientific" would know that.


however since you ask, they do provide these citations


1. Leong, K. S., and Wilding, J. P. (1999) Baillieres Best Pract. Res. Clin. Endocrinol.
Metab. 13, 221–237
2. Caro, J. F., Dohm, L. G., Pories, W. J., and Sinha, M. K. (1989) Diabetes Metab.
Rev. 5, 665–689
3. Torti, F. M., Torti, S. V., Larrick, J. W., and Ringold, G. M. (1989) J. Cell Biol.
108, 1105–1113
4. Zhang, B., Berger, J., Zhou, G., Elbrecht, A., Biswas, S., White-Carrington, S.,
Szalkowski, D., Moller, D. E., and Zhang, B. (1996) J. Biol. Chem. 271,
31771–31774
5. Xia, X., and Serrero, G. (1999) J. Cell. Physiol. 178, 9–16
6. Font de Mora, J., Porras, A., Ahn, N., and Santos, E. (1997) Mol. Cell. Biol. 17,
6068–6075
7. Camp, H. S., Tafuri, S. R., and Leff, T. (1999) Endocrinology 140, 392–397
8. Engelman, J. A., Lisanti, M. P., and Scherer, P. E. (1998) J. Biol. Chem. 273,
32111–32120
9. Schoonjans, K., Peinado-Onsurbe, J., Lefebvre, A. M., Heyman, R. A., Briggs,
M., Deeb, S., Staels, B., and Auwerx, J. (1996) EMBO J. 15, 5336–5348
10. Tontonoz, P., Hu, E., Graves, R. A., Budavari, A. I., and Spiegelman, B. M.
(1994) Genes Dev. 8, 1224–1234
11. Yang, V. W., Christy, R. J., Cook, J. S., Kelly, T. J., and Lane, M. D. (1989)
Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U. S. A. 86, 3629–3633
12. Reusch, J. E., Colton, L. A., and Klemm, D. J. (2000) Mol. Cell. Biol. 20,
1008–1020
13. Ruan, H., Hacohen, N., Golub, T. R., Van Parijs, L., and Lodish, H. F. (2002)
Diabetes 51, 1319–1336
14. Estrada, D. E., Ewart, H. S., Tsakiridis, T., Volchuk, A., Ramlal, T., Tritschler,
H., and Klip, A. (1996) Diabetes 45, 1798–1804
15. Eason, R. C., Archer, H. E., Akhtar, S., and Bailey, C. J. (2002) Diabetes Obes.
Metab. 4, 29–35

 

[macrophage69alpha]

as a note- those are the citations for the introduction only.

 

[Animal]

funny how the citations just can't be matched up with what the abstract says or even the intro, for that matter.

Hmm..........

 

[mt]

Re: Re: ALA study question (macro, fonz)

Macro, you are just pure jackass, aren't you?

Ridiculous.

Why does Animal, easily the most despicable and contemptible person on the net, bother to come to this board? All you do is criticize and bash this board on your board yet you still come back here. Go back to your own little cocoon where you have your little sheeple that congratulate each other on how brilliant you all are and delete posts or ban people that disagree with you. Over the years through natural selection, or should I say "animal selection/banning" you have gathered a bunch of true-believing Kool-aide drinkers that has convinced you of your own genius contributing to your delusional, megalomania tendencies. I noticed that you dropped the $10 fee that allows people to log in "as long as you feel they are worthy." Oh, wait, you took that line out. I guess asking people to pay you to insult them was affecting the bottom line. Not so principled after all, eh? If it wasn't for DC or IronAddict I wonder how many would even bother with your pathetic self-absorbed egotism. I know I wouldn't. I've been banned so many times from your board that I'm running out of computers to log in on. As long as I stick to DC's forum I'll be OK because it's hard to hold my peace listening to your self-aggrandizing rants and insults.

BTW, does anyone still have the picture of the big, mean "Animal" sitting next to some Asian guy in his bike shorts? Very impressive --- ROTFLMAO! How easy it is to be a tough guy on the net when you don't have to face anybody. That explains why someone told me that you're really a nice guy in person. I bet. After getting your scrawny ass kicked so many times you learned to respect people in person.

Ban me now, Cracker!

 

[Animal]

Thank you for making yet another thread about ME!

Any day you wanna meet. People know when and where I race, so feel free to invite yourself.

 

[mt]

Bwahahahahahahaha! Stick to your fantasies of lapping up XXXXXXXXXXX goo while taking it up the rectum from XXXXXXXXXXX. Both of whom you refer to as "heroes."

You challenging me to a fight biker-girl? You want to meet me? Then why don't YOU come to me? I would so love that. I'm at the rAw training center every morning beginning at 10:00 am Mon,Tues and Thurs-Sat. Leave your Sig-Sauer at home. And don't bother tapping because it won't matter -- your arm is going to break. And pray to God that I don't get you in a knee bar because then your biking days are over (do you still refer to yourself as a world class athlete?).

rAw training academy
113 Sierra Street
El Segundo, CA 90245

XXXXXXXXXX , on the right, trying to look like a bad ass. Bwahahahahaha! To quote from Doom at Anabolex:

"Thats him guys...loves his racing...pretty sad actually. No wonder why he would talk so tough behind the puter, in real life most people would smack him."

http://www.anabolex.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=545551

Hey Assimal (Sorry Massive, I had to steal your name for him), doesn't it suck when you can't edit other people's post which is exactly what you accuse this board of doing to you? Where's the Site Nazi when you need him, huh you little bitch?

 

[Animal]

Wow, I'm scared! A roid ragin ball shaver!

Like I said, I'm out there everyday. You challenge me and then you cry for me to come visit you? What a pussy!

Ohh, please don't hurt me! You are so brave behind your screen!

 

[EngiCream]

Don't know why this couldn't just have been posted instead of posting bits and pieces from it.

a-Lipoic Acid Inhibits Adipocyte Differentiation by Regulating Pro-adipogenic Transcription Factors via Mitogen-activated Protein Kinase Pathways

 

[Animal]

I see why!

Pre-adipocytes? Are we really going between pre adipocytes all that frequently?

Now these sentences are likely why the entire study wasn't printed as it ain't so good! Not only via mechanism of ALA, but that they only looked at pre-adipocytes rather than insulin mediated effects on mature adipocytes which obviously aren't blocked.

Recent studies have demonstrated that LA facilitates glucose transport and utilization in fully differentiated adipocytes, as well as in animal models of diabetes (14–16). These insulin-like actions of LA were mainly mediated by activation of IR/Akt signaling pathway.
Considering that insulin stimulates adipogenesis, this study was undertaken to investigate whether LA promotes differentiation of pre-adipocytes to mature adipocytes.

So what is happening is LA is allowing mature fat cells to get bombed with glucose, but not baby ones.

And then there's the bomb!

' In our study, LA at lower concentrations (100 µM) promoted adipogenesis whereas at higher concentrations (250 and 500 µM)it was inhibitory'

This post won't last long around here!

 

[Andy13]

Recent studies have demonstrated that LA facilitates glucose transport and utilization in fully differentiated adipocytes, as well as in animal models of diabetes (14–16).

Where are ref's 14-16? Since you did not reference a source, I assume this is yours

 

[macrophage69alpha]

orally 100mg of R+ yields plasma levels of 265 micromoles/l apprx (average as well- there will be variance of uptake), based on lower yield with racemate (greater excretion rates of both)

Dose-proportionality of oral thioctic acid--coincidence of assessments via pooled plasma and individual data.

Breithaupt-Grogler K, Niebch G, Schneider E, Erb K, Hermann R, Blume HH, Schug BS, Belz GG.

Center for Cardiovascular Pharmacology, Mathildenstrasse 8, 55116, Mainz, Germany.

Thioctic acid (TA), a racemate of R-(+)- and S-(-)-enantiomers of alpha-lipoic acid, acts as a powerful lipophilic, free-radical scavenger and is used in the treatment of diabetic neuropathy. This trial investigated the dose-linearity of enantiomer pharmacokinetics following the oral administration of single doses of 50 to 600 mg TA (formulation provided by ASTA (Medica)) in healthy volunteers. TA enantiomer concentrations in individual and pooled plasma samples were determined using enantioselective, high-performance liquid chromatography. TA was rapidly absorbed (tmax, 0.5 to 1 h). Maximum plasma concentrations (Cmax) of the R-(+)-enantiomer were about 40-50% higher than those of the S-(-)-enantiomer (50 mg: 135.45 ng/ml R-(+)-TA, 67.83 ng/ml S-(-)-TA; 600 mg: 1812.32 ng/ml R-(+)-TA, 978.20 ng/ml S-(-)-TA; geometric means). The decline observed in the plasma concentration was steep (t1/2, 0.5 h). The dose-linearity and proportionality of pharmacokinetic parameters could be demonstrated on an intra-individual basis and for the group geometric means. An analysis of pooled plasma samples proved to be a suitable means for deriving reliable first-sight results prior to individual assessments.

 

[Animal]

So, can we get a sustained release?

14-16 are at the link.

 

[mt]

Any day you wanna meet. People know when and where I race, so feel free to invite yourself.

I believe the challenge came from you. And lets be realistic, I'm going to meet you at a bicycle tournament? Then what? We'll duke it out on the street? How long will that last before people step in or the cops are called? At rAw, and at least in So. CA in general, these challenge matches happen all the time. I saw my first at the Gracie Torrance Academy back in '91 when Royce Gracie beat some guy who claimed to be a Black-Belt in "Ninjitsu". This can be seen in the Gracie in Action 2 tape. We have a ring, waiver forms, you can bring whomever you want. If it's a grudge match and the challenger is unknow, i.e., is not a competitor or affliated with any school or academy, he and his crew are search for weapons. The match will be video tape and a copy given to each participant at their own expense. A ref. is there to make sure no one gets killed and the fight can end at any time by either the participants or his corner throwing in the towel. I assure you, though, because you are such a truly unrepentant arrogant prick, if I catch your arm or get you in a heel hook it will be broken before the ref. can stop it.

I won't lie to you. I am not a world class fighter. If I was I would be in Vegas tonight or in Japan tomorrow competing with the best. I've taken many a major ass whipping. In fact, I get my ass handed to me on a regular basis as we have some world class fighters. I'm not sure how much bike riding translates into martial acumen but I am eager to find out. If you're serious, take your time train as much and as long as you want. I'm not going anywhere and I'm easy to find. I don't expect you to jump into something which I assume is new to you at the drop of a hat. I freely admit that I would be no match for you in a bike riding contest.

Don't mistake the facts, it was you who challenged me to a physical contest.

And for you NHB and MMA fans keep an eye out for B.J. Penn tonight against Matt Hughes. He's the under-dog and he had suffered the grave misfortune of having his weight class, 155lbs, eliminated from the UFC, and had to move up to the 180 lb. class, far above his natural and best fighting weight. Hughes diets down a little for his weight and is the most dominate fighter in his class. Still, I think Penn will pull it off. This match will be MMA at it's best.