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ALA Hype: Gaining, cutting, or what?

I

ISN_Man

New member
ALA has been in the supplement spotlight for a few years now but it seems as if all of a sudden, people are going crazy with it. A majority of the threads on this forum as well as others on the Elite Boards touch upon ALA supplementation and how it's extremely useful for people.

Now I've got a bunch of questions here reguarding ALA. I've already done a few searchs and have read a few threads with some decent info, but I'm still curious about a few things.

For one, is ALA usually set aside for people dieting or can you use it during a mass or gaining phase?

Secondly, what are the optimal times to be using it? Seeing it's releasing insulin, I'm gathering there's only a few times during the day that you want that release, like possibly in the morning, seeing you've been without nutrients for an extended amount of time, and post workout time, for obvious reasons!

Third, do people see a dramatic difference in their bodies in comparison with a dose under 1000mg to a dose over 1000mg?

Fourth, ideally, you'd want to only be taking ALA with meals that were higher in protein and carbs, while low/no in fat, correct?

And finally, perhaps I don't understand the whole idea behind a ketogenic diet as well as I thought I did, but through my research, I thought it was the process in which through carb restriction your body is forced to utilize fat and protein as an energy source, making your body release ketones. I don't know if I missed an important part there or not, but that's what I thought the basis was. Any how, how does ALA make you get into a state of ketosis faster than not using it?
(Sorry this is so long, but I'd greatly appreciate the replys)
 
For one, is ALA usually set aside for people dieting or can you use it during a mass or gaining phase?

• I would say both. ALA mimicks insulin, just as andros mimick test. So if you look at what body builders use insulin for, you will find that they use in for both cutting and bulking. All in all I would say that ALA is a better aid for fat loss then it is for wait gains. It removes sugar from your blood and shuttles it into your muscles. That is very desirable when one is trying to reach ketosis. This also makes you look very full and pumped when usually on a low carb diet you can start to look flat.

Secondly, what are the optimal times to be using it? Seeing it's releasing insulin, I'm gathering there's only a few times during the day that you want that release, like possibly in the morning, seeing you've been without nutrients for an extended amount of time, and post workout time, for obvious reasons!

• I take it half hour before morning cardio becuase it will bring your blood sugar level even lower. It's also good to take before or after work outs to.

Third, do people see a dramatic difference in their bodies in comparison with a dose under 1000mg to a dose over 1000mg?

• I take 750mgs a day. Results are not dramatic from ALA but you will feel a difference.

Fourth, ideally, you'd want to only be taking ALA with meals that were higher in protein and carbs, while low/no in fat, correct?

• Depends on if your bulking or cutting. Taking it with more carbs will give you a better insulin spike (pump), but you obviously you don't want to take a lot of carbs while cutting.

And finally, perhaps I don't understand the whole idea behind a ketogenic diet as well as I thought I did, but through my research, I thought it was the process in which through carb restriction your body is forced to utilize fat and protein as an energy source, making your body release ketones. I don't know if I missed an important part there or not, but that's what I thought the basis was. Any how, how does ALA make you get into a state of ketosis faster than not using it? (Sorry this is so long, but I'd greatly appreciate the replys)

• That's pretty much the main theory behind the diet. If you wanna know more check out my site. Go to "body" ...then "bodybuilding" ... then "my program".
 
I've been taking 750mgs for about 2 months now and just recently went up to 1000mgs. I definitely seen a difference in my pumps.Im not saying i did'nt feel anything at 750mgs, im just saying i felt more with 1000mgs......;)
 
Great stuff, regardless of bulking/cutting. No need to cycle it, it is not gear. Even if your idea of lifting is the remote control, you should take it everyday like any other anti-ox or vit.
 
Would 300 mg. of ALA before early AM cardio with ECA or NYC stack be a good idea?

:confused::confused:

I have never heard of the ALA before cardio argument before. It lowers blood sugar even more?
 
... Why not preworkout? Carbs come afterwards..

Would it be okay to take 300 mg. before cardio on REST days and 100 mg. before workouts and then 200 mg. after workouts on training days?

:confused::confused:
 
Im A student 20 5'10 190 lbs looking to bulk is 600 mg of ALA enough? Dont have $ to be taking HUGE doses..Please help me out thanks
 
ALA is not an insulin mimicker... It has insulin-like effects. For more info on the technical side, do a search under "Fonz" for his ALA thread -- it has just about everything you need to know in it.

The carb-sparing effects are most pronounced in the multi-gram range. I would say that ALA is more of a cutting agent than for use while bulking. If you're going into ketosis, it is possible to preserve most muscle, but it won't be a super-favorable environment for new muscle to grow in.

ALA has a short peak -- about 15 minutes, so it is necessary to take it with every carb-containing meal. I wouldn't go super-high on the carbs, but dietary ketosis is possible in the 300 grams of carbs/day range.

The lowest effective dose I've heard of for going into ketosis is about 1500 mgs/day; most that I know need to be somewhere between 2500 mgs - 3500 mgs. The only way to know if you're in ketosis is to go buy ketostix (about $8 for 50) and take the pee test 1x or 2x a day to see where you are at. You can feel like you are in ketosis, but you really don't know until you test. Anything below those levels are good for you, but you won't reap the carb-sparing effects of ALA.

I started at 1500 mgs/day for a week and still wasn't in ketosis. It wasn't until I hit the 2500 mg - 3500 mg/ day that I remained consistently in trace ketosis. My suggestion: buy bulk from BAC and take multigram dosages. In this range it really is pretty miraculous, less than that will give you very little results. I've lost about 10 lbs. in the last 3 weeks on it with no strength loss.

Fonz and rangerx know their shit about ALA; search their posts.
 
It is also best used in about 4-week cycles. Once your body is in a state of consistent ketosis, the effects will slow after a few weeks as your body begins to down-regulate and slow the process. Cycling on and off for at least equal amounts of time will keep it from adapting; alternatively, you can try a variant and go 5 on, 2 off.

ALA only works with moderately carby diets and you should only take it with carby meals, so forget trying to time it with cardio or whatever. Just take it with meals.

Also, slide the scale -- take more with more carby meals, less with less carby meals. For instance, I take 250-500 mgs w/ a 16 oz. glass of milk; I take up to a full gram before a pasta dinner.
 
You may feel free to peruse my posts in addition to the individuals above :) . I am certainly not claiming to be smarter than anyone else, however, I have been studying ALA and using it therapeutically with many individuals in standard doses for weight loss for quite some time. I was perhaps the first to post on this board about using ALA for weight loss albeit not in the higher doses as I also learned about from these boards. When I find out how to access the archives from when I first joined and posted about ALA I will relay those messages. Again, I'm not saying I'm any smarter or comparing myself, but I believe several individuals have very good information available to help everyone.
 
BackDoc said:
You may feel free to peruse my posts in addition to the individuals above :) . I am certainly not claiming to be smarter than anyone else, however, I have been studying ALA and using it therapeutically with many individuals in standard doses for weight loss for quite some time. I was perhaps the first to post on this board about using ALA for weight loss albeit not in the higher doses as I also learned about from these boards. When I find out how to access the archives from when I first joined and posted about ALA I will relay those messages. Again, I'm not saying I'm any smarter or comparing myself, but I believe several individuals have very good information available to help everyone.
Click to expand...

Sorry if it seemed I excluded you -- I haven't ran across any of your posts on the subject. As you mentioned, my focus is primarily on megadosing ALA. I'll see if I can't dig up a few of your old posts for you.
 
I just reread my post and it seems childish and petty. I apologize if that came off like I was whining. Some days are like that. No more excuses. I was just being dumb and selfish. Sorry. :)

Anyway, I don't have a large number of posts on ALA...excluding the archives...which is why my views are hard to find. That's entirely my fault for not keeping after it. Some recent posts have excellent info that other people presented. I saw the work Ranger did on posting info on ALA and it is very thorough. TheMachine's link is probably all you'll need for info.
 
I'm pretty surprised that many of you feel the "pump" while taking ALA before training. My personal experience is tht it makes me feel extremely sluggish and tired. Nonetheless, it has helped me lean out. I am taking in at least 150-200 grams of carbs and still in the process of getting more ripped. Usually at this dose of carbs, I start bloating and gaining excess fat. However, ALA has been able to put a stop to this. My dosage is currently sitting at 1500mg perday. Is it just my imagination that it's working? Maybe, maybe not. Fellow trainers have been asking and reaffirming that indeed I look leaner and more cut. Hope this helps.
 
kto said:
I'm pretty surprised that many of you feel the "pump" while taking ALA before training. My personal experience is tht it makes me feel extremely sluggish and tired. Nonetheless, it has helped me lean out. I am taking in at least 150-200 grams of carbs and still in the process of getting more ripped. Usually at this dose of carbs, I start bloating and gaining excess fat. However, ALA has been able to put a stop to this. My dosage is currently sitting at 1500mg perday. Is it just my imagination that it's working? Maybe, maybe not. Fellow trainers have been asking and reaffirming that indeed I look leaner and more cut. Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Have you tested with ketostix to see if you are in ketosis? When one is in ketosis is when the greatest (bad) weight is lost -- however some people never do go into ketosis and still get measurable results. Try doubling your dosage for a week or two and see how it differs from what is currently going on. The ketostix are a great reference tool in that they can tell you what incremental changes in diet and ALA intake do to your state of ketosis (and whether or not you are indeed in ketosis to begin with).

I do feel pumped and hard off ALA, but I am very tired and sluggish too. Next time I take ALA, I'm going to stack 50 mgs - 100 mgs of 5htp with it for mood enhancement and to cut carb cravings; I think that will work well. Of course, thermogenics go a long way too... lol... A little yohimbine, ephedrine and caffeine before a workout and I forget all about being tired.

P.S. Next ALA cycle, I will also have some psyllium husk on hand for when I binge on bad fat foods -- block fat, block carbs -- sheesh, I'm going to start feeling guilty about this soon... But the proof is in the pudding...
 
What type of dosages would be good for like 200-300 grams of carbs a day. I'm not interested in going into ketosis, just want to cut.....
 
Using Powdered Form

I found 50 grams for $16.50 at Beyond A Century but in the description it states, "Powder form has an unpleasant “burn” taste."

I can handle the taste but do I just mix this in water and gulp? Can I mix it in my protein shake and drink it down? Also, if I am eating 6 times a day will 500 mgs per meal work (3 grams per day) or should I go with 1 gram per meal? That would be 6 grams a day!

How would using ALA in conjunction with 1-AD and/or 4-AD work?

Thanks!! This sounds like pretty amazing stuff.
 
Last edited:
Re: Using Powdered Form

Scatocephalus said:
I found 50 grams for $16.50 at Beyond A Century but in the description it states, "Powder form has an unpleasant “burn” taste."

I can handle the taste but do I just mix this in water and gulp? Can I mix it in my protein shake and drink it down? Also, if I am eating 6 times a day will 500 mgs per meal work (3 grams per day) or should I go with 1 gram per meal? That would be 6 grams a day!

How would using ALA in conjunction with 1-AD and/or 4-AD work?

Thanks!! This sounds like pretty amazing stuff.
Click to expand...

I use the BAC brand; the burn is not that bad. Just put however many (250 mg) scoops in your mouth, take a swig of water mix it up and swallow, follow it with a few more gulps of water...

6 grams is overkill. LD (lethal dose) is 30 (although, I've heard some say 50; the only studies I could find supported the LD30, but they were extrapolated from animals). Stay in the 2500 - 3500 mg/day range; just take more with more carby meals; buy the ketostix to judge how much is enough. Anybody doing anything else is just guessing -- why waste the time, effort and money? For an extra $8 you can be sure you're doing it the right way; plus it's a nice motivation tool to see those little strips turn pink to purple -- lets you know you're on-track.

I would expect that the AD products would help maintain muscle mass, but a ketogenic environment is probably not the most favorable for growing new muscle -- I don't know give it a try... You may consider doing the PH cycle first, coming of with an anti-e and starting the ALA a week or two after the end of the PH cycle to cut...

Like I said above, psyllium husk (for bad fat binge days) and 50-100mgs/day of 5HTP would be good additions to an ALA stack. PHs might be cool, I'm not sure...
 
beastboy said:
What type of dosages would be good for like 200-300 grams of carbs a day. I'm not interested in going into ketosis, just want to cut.....
Click to expand...

I'm not sure how significantly it will help you cut without going into ketosis, although I know it works for some, so I can't comment on dosage with your stated goal. If your in the same size range as me, I'd guess about 1500 mgs/day split over all of your meals.

I go between 200-300 carbs/day most of the time, and I've found that I need to be in the 2500 mg-3500mg/day range to stay consistently in trace (or better) ketosis. Effects have been dramatic to say the least once that state was acheived.

If you want to cut, why not go into ketosis? With the ALA and high protein intake, you don't lose any muscle, you just lose fat...fast...
 
The more I read...

OK, here's some more questions for you. In one of the other posts it is brought to light that there are two different types of ALA. R-(+)-ALA and S-(-)-ALA of which the R-(+)-ALA is preferable.

I am curious to know if those having success are in fact using this type. If so, where are they getting it. What brands/suppliers are being utilized? This question seems to have been totally ignored by Fonz and others in previous threads. Cheap ALA (Beyond A Century) does us no good if it doesn't work.
 
Re: The more I read...

Scatocephalus said:
OK, here's some more questions for you. In one of the other posts it is brought to light that there are two different types of ALA. R-(+)-ALA and S-(-)-ALA of which the R-(+)-ALA is preferable.

I am curious to know if those having success are in fact using this type. If so, where are they getting it. What brands/suppliers are being utilized? This question seems to have been totally ignored by Fonz and others in previous threads. Cheap ALA (Beyond A Century) does us no good if it doesn't work.
Click to expand...

I know that the BAC ALA works for a fact because I've been in ketosis for over two weeks while ingesting 200+ grams of carbs per day. That don't just happen my friend. :) A lot of other guys have been getting great results too. The S-type is (as I remember) the only type available OTC in the U.S. anyway.

Yeah, I remember seeing this question rise in one of the threads; and I can't remember the exact explanation that ended up being given, but the author misread some things, and placed a great overemphasis on the difference between the two. It ended up being a non-issue.
 
Just my input: the R-enantiomer variety of ALA may be purchased from Jarrow. Seems there are several applications where one enantiomer is better than the others. If anyone has info showing that the R, S or racemic mixture is associated moreso in conjunction with glycation and/or for glucose uptake then the problem of purpose respective: "muscle pump" vs. "fat loss" may possibly have a solution.

Better living through stereochemistry. :D
 
BackDoc said:
Just my input: the R-enantiomer variety of ALA may be purchased from Jarrow. Seems there are several applications where one enantiomer is better than the others. If anyone has info showing that the R, S or racemic mixture is associated moreso in conjunction with glycation and/or for glucose uptake then the problem of purpose respective: "muscle pump" vs. "fat loss" may possibly have a solution.

Better living through stereochemistry. :D
Click to expand...

Thanks for clearing that up -- I couldn't clearly remember the details; can you remember specifically what the R-type was better at, and to what degree? As I remember, there wasn't a huge difference...

Also, racemic=a homogenous blend of S and R types, correct?
 
That's also my understanding that both R and S enantiomers of ALA in equal amounts constitute the racemic mix. I guess the racemic mix could possibly be a meso compound or other isomer, but I guess it does not matter. This is the limit of my understanding as I have long forgotten the advanced basics.

Interestingly, I have unknowingly preferred the R-enantiomer of ALA for weight loss (determined from the C of A from Jarrow) and I have not linked the structure's chirality with success with fat loss/muscle glucose effects. However, I have noted with some brands I need to take considerably higher doses to create the same effect. It seems to make sense about the R-enantiomer as one supporting data demonstrates (Am J Physiol 1997 Jul;273(1 Pt 1):E185-91). Here is the link to the study, as it may be of some interest:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9252495&dopt=Abstract


I have not examined many brands of ALA to find out which are the R-enantiomers... I also must admit that I am not a very credible source for the range of therapeutic uses and ALA, so I would be no good except to see what I can dig up.
 
BackDoc said:
That's also my understanding that both R and S enantiomers of ALA in equal amounts constitute the racemic mix. I guess the racemic mix could possibly be a meso compound or other isomer, but I guess it does not matter. This is the limit of my understanding as I have long forgotten the advanced basics.

Interestingly, I have unknowingly preferred the R-enantiomer of ALA for weight loss (determined from the C of A from Jarrow) and I have not linked the structure's chirality with success with fat loss/muscle glucose effects. However, I have noted with some brands I need to take considerably higher doses to create the same effect. It seems to make sense about the R-enantiomer as one supporting data demonstrates (Am J Physiol 1997 Jul;273(1 Pt 1):E185-91). Here is the link to the study, as it may be of some interest:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9252495&dopt=Abstract


I have not examined many brands of ALA to find out which are the R-enantiomers... I also must admit that I am not a very credible source for the range of therapeutic uses and ALA, so I would be no good except to see what I can dig up.
Click to expand...

Good thoughts, thanks for the information -- it could very well be a quantity of ingestion issue. Luckily, there's S-type available cheap enough to take in large doses. I do believe that S-type is prevalent in the supplement industry (probably due to raw costs). Being a natural skeptic, manufacturer's certificates don't always mean it's so -- but in the absecence of tests, that (and results) is all one has to go on...

Maybe you could explain your dosing protocol for some of the guys that are interested in losing weight without going into ketosis? Also, aside from BMI tests, the scale and mirror, would there be any tests readily available and home administratable that one could take to tell if they're in a favorable glycemic state (outside of ketosis)?
 
I started with relatively low doses of ALA the other day (600mg). I'm fairly confident that is the only significant change I have made to my daily regimen, but since, everything smells and tastes funny. The same thing happened when I started taking MSM and when I went on a weird herbal 'detox'regimen for allergies some years back. It's been like this for 3 days. Result of ALA? or should I be looking for other culprits?
 
Naxis said:
I started with relatively low doses of ALA the other day (600mg). I'm fairly confident that is the only significant change I have made to my daily regimen, but since, everything smells and tastes funny. The same thing happened when I started taking MSM and when I went on a weird herbal 'detox'regimen for allergies some years back. It's been like this for 3 days. Result of ALA? or should I be looking for other culprits?
Click to expand...

Is it giving everything a slightly acidic taste/smell? That's probably the ALA. One thing's for sure, your urine will stink to high heaven when megadosing.
 
i'm new here although i have been watching the board for about a week. i have been attempting to cut up for the summer. first of all i started working out seriously and dieting about 2 months ago. at the time my stats were

5'8"
158 Lbs
16.6 % bf
34 inch waist

I started watching my diet...eating low cal/low fat foods and doing cardio 3-4 days per week as well as weight training about 3 times a week and was able to take off about 10 lbs and 2 inches off my waist

my stats now are

5'8"
148-149 Lbs
? BF
32 inch waist

now i have been reading that the way to get rid of those last few stubborn pounds of fat is to limit your carb intake...so for the past week or so i have been limiting myself to about 100 grams of carbs per day. from what it sounds like around here thats still a pretty moderate level. I was reading up on the supplement ALA and it sounds like it may be able to help me. i was wondering if you continue to use ALA on your carb up days? from what i understand you want to use the ALA to keep yourself in ketosis, correct? my goal is to get to around 9-10 % bf...just enuff to be able to shamelssly take my shirt off at the beach this summer. any help would be appreciated. sorry if this has been beat to death in the past but these were specific questions that i couldn't find answers to when i did a search

thanks
 
THeMaCHinE said:
Maybe you could explain your dosing protocol for some of the guys that are interested in losing weight without going into ketosis? Also, aside from BMI tests, the scale and mirror, would there be any tests readily available and home administratable that one could take to tell if they're in a favorable glycemic state (outside of ketosis)?
Click to expand...

I don't really have a protocol for being outside of ketosis, however, fat loss can easily occur, although somewhat more slowly while on ALA just this side of the ketosis. IMO the higher doses are more for muscle preservation (reduced glycation) than for fat loss, however, low and moderate doses should allow at least some of the increased protein uptake of glucose. So at least the fat loss appears to occur as a result of reduced fat storage of intake rather than removal and conversion of excess fat.

Generally my protocol is that exercise is the higher the bodyfat content the lesser dose of ALA needed to create beneficial effect. However, not less in terms of dose needed for similar physiological reaction but less in terms of compared to a higher dose. The insulin response, or lack thereof, is IMO beneficial enough to warrant safe, long term fat loss in obese individuals. This has been suggested to occur at 600 mg within a time frame. More appears not to be of any benefit insofar as insulin effect is concerned. However, since the last few pounds are the hardest to lose and thus the higher dose might be a better option since the body will hold on to the last pounds.

Basically, a moderate dose of ALA will affect how ingested food is processed related to fat storage. Higher doses appear to affect the degree of muscle glucose uptake.

Of course this is nothing you're not already familiar with.

A blood glucose meter can help ascertain effect of ALA on general insulin. The limiting factor is determining a baseline. Preferred is a fasting blood glucose test and a post prandial blood glucose reading before starting ALA. Then it may be measured in intervals to determine how fast it takes for ALA to effect a change from baseline. Other than that, which is obviously a cost and hassle issue, the means you described is what I have used.
 
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