AG Report card?

[25homes]

What up with the low grade on the Letro he days it is by far the superior product they have but basically they are scared of it ...Works to good?? I dont get it if the results are that effective why not run Letro just at a lower dose to avoid sides??

 

[INNOCENT]

i usually just use ldex.. on all my cycles

 

[anal itch]

a-dex doesn’t work for me that well, even at higher doses. I just started using ferma (letro) recently and have to say I like what I see. Good stuff.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

People lose their sex drive on letro. It's good for precontest, and good for getting rid of gyno, but is overkill for typical cycles.

I used it for a year. I had no estrogen left, my joints hurt and I was always sick. But I got rid of my gyno...I wouldn't reccomend it unless it's for pre-contest or gyno.

 

[SaintLouis]

I like letro too, but I have to say that it sure does KILL my sex drive even while on a gram of test. Honestly, I would rather have no sex drive for a while than have some puffy nips. Sex drive always come back. Know what Im sayin?

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Arimidex will help with the puffy nips. Letro is really, really overkill. If you have Gyno, or are VERY sensitive to it, or are precontest...then letro is the answer. Otherwise, you're doing some temporary damage to your sex drive, your immune system, and joints for no good reason...

 

[k6jatu37]

If you can do nolva therapy for pre-existing gyno, would it be easier to combine it with letro?

 

[25homes]

If you can do nolva therapy for pre-existing gyno, would it be easier to combine it with letro?

Have done this before and been successful

 

[k6jatu37]

what dose? my doctor wants to try it before i do surgery and perscribed the nolva. i never thought about adding letro too. how did you do it? was it fatty tissue gyno, hard lumps or puffy nipples?

 

[SaintLouis]

Arimidex will help with the puffy nips. Letro is really, really overkill. If you have Gyno, or are VERY sensitive to it, or are precontest...then letro is the answer. Otherwise, you're doing some temporary damage to your sex drive, your immune system, and joints for no good reason...

I have used Arimidex. I can tell you from expierence that it works good for some and not so good for others. I am one of the others, anything less than the femera and I get real sensitive nips. Plus, for me, it keep the water off a lot better than the arimidex.

 

[25homes]

what dose? my doctor wants to try it before i do surgery and perscribed the nolva. i never thought about adding letro too. how did you do it? was it fatty tissue gyno, hard lumps or puffy nipples?

I was using Letro at 1.25mg eod to every third day you would probably want every other day...Use the nolva at 60mg for a week then 40mg for 2 weeks and that should take care of you bro...

 

[k6jatu37]

ok!

 

[Mr.X]

What up with the low grade on the Letro he days it is by far the superior product they have but basically they are scared of it ...Works to good?? I dont get it if the results are that effective why not run Letro just at a lower dose to avoid sides??

Letrozole is a great product, but it does have some sexual sides. Personally, I think letro is best used with nolva for anti-gyno treatment.

 

[SaintLouis]

Letrozole is a great product, but it does have some sexual sides. Personally, I think letro is best used with nolva for anti-gyno treatment.

Or maybe for someone without gyno who gets sensitive nips from smelling test.

 

[Mr.X]

Or maybe for someone without gyno who gets sensitive nips from smelling test.

Also a good point, another good time to use letrozole.

 

[drrman]

im one of those that can't take test without something powerful such as letrozole, i agree that a letrozole/nolva combo is a good one, the nolva helps the cholesterol where the letro hurts it

 

[SaintLouis]

im one of those that can't take test without something powerful such as letrozole, i agree that a letrozole/nolva combo is a good one, the nolva helps the cholesterol where the letro hurts it

Yep, I always use Nolva w/femera for just that reason.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

the credit card is based solely on their price competitiveness (which is why aromasin is listed below arimidex- which is least effective) with other research companies. Everything about ATD is complete garbage. ATD does bind to the AR at .2% affinity of DHT as does aromasin. it means nothing, except in castrated animals.

 

[drrman]

the credit card is based solely on their price competitiveness (which is why aromasin is listed below arimidex- which is least effective) with other research companies. Everything about ATD is complete garbage. ATD does bind to the AR at .2% affinity of DHT as does aromasin. it means nothing, except in castrated animals.

can you explain exactly what you are saying, im not sure what you mean

 

[macrophage69alpha]

can you explain exactly what you are saying, im not sure what you mean

the part about it being a sales pitch based on price competitiveness (hence the poor rating for aromasin) and not on actual effectiveness?

or

The part about how its completely irrelevant that ATD and Aromasin bind to the Androgen receptor (both at about .2% the affinity of DHT)- basically no other androgens at all present in order for them to bind- hence why its only an issue in castrated animals.

 

[Mr.X]

the credit card is based solely on their price competitiveness (which is why aromasin is listed below arimidex- which is least effective) with other research companies. Everything about ATD is complete garbage. ATD does bind to the AR at .2% affinity of DHT as does aromasin. it means nothing, except in castrated animals.

And I'm sure you selling ATD (AIFM) has nothing to do with you being so defensive about it lol

btw...it's report card not credit card.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

And I'm sure you selling ATD (AIFM) has nothing to do with you being so defensive about it lol

btw...it's report card not credit card.

in part quite true, however it does not change the fact that such assertions are completely idiotic and based on a completely lack of understanding of aromatase and the AR.

you got me there - (btw- had a ag credit card joke to cover for the faux paus- but it just seemed spiteful)-- so

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Letro lowered my immune system. I got a bad joint injury on it. I was simply on too much (.25mgs/day) for too long.

Lowering estrogen by the amount that Letro does just isn't necessary.

Also, if price competativeness were the relevant criteria, wouldn't Clomid be rated above Nolvadex, since you have to use waaaay more to achieve the same results?

 

[macrophage69alpha]

letro can be overly suppressive, actually any AI can be overly suppressive in some individuals.


as far as the clomid/nolva issue (price competitiveness with other e-tailers and tab makers) and with a 25mg nolva they are more price competitive.
however as far as the superiority issue, its still debatable. there is no real hard clinical evidence one way or the other which is better at restoring the HPGA. There are proponents of both. (in point of fact individual variances and response may make one or the other better- hence its quite possible (at quite likely) that individual variations in ER subtypes and ratios may lead to greater response with one or the other- differing between individuals)

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Letro lowered my immune system. I got a bad joint injury on it. I was simply on too much (.25mgs/day) for too long.

Lowering estrogen by the amount that Letro does just isn't necessary.

how much test were you taking?

or was this off cycle use?

 

[Mr.X]

in part quite true,

My personal take on the report card and a little rant with it.

Report card: written well, but I would give letrozole more credit, at least: B+ / A-

Estrogen thoughts: I find too many people take too many anti-estrogen products and suicide inhibitors, lowering their estrogen levels too much. It's dangerous to have too little estrogen, as we (men) need some estrogen in the body to stay healthy.

Ideally, it would seem that having no estrogen is great, but the side effects and health risks would be too great.

 

[Mr.X]

I just got 2 PMs asking about what report card were talking about. It's about this:
http://www.ag-guys.com/arimidex-vs-aromasin.htm

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Right well, in this case, I have only my personal experience to go by...and letro was unfortunately too harsh for me over the long run.

However, with regards to the topic of Transdermal Application of Aromatase Inhibitors,
I happen to know someone who used one.

I don't know if it's ok to mention the product here, but the man who invented "Phlogel" (a transdermal carrier agent), actually promotes his transdermal delivery system for use in any application EXCEPT for the delivery of Aromatase Inhibitors. He used a Transdermal carrier mixed with an aromatase inhibitor, quite some time ago.

What he found was that the sustained release provided by the transdermal carrier didn't ever seem to get his blood levels high enough to do what he was looking to do with regards to aromatase inhibition....but the constant and sustained release caused unbearable and long term side effects on his cognitive function and other areas.

Again, This isn't me, and I've sent a link to this thread to him. But I'd like to stress that this man had used Aromatase Inhibitors before (orally) and when he used a Transdermal carrier with one (and remember - he invented a certain form of this carrier), he found it to be detrimental.

Hopefully, he'll get my e-mail and explain exactly what happened.

 

[AAP]

isn't aromasin the best anyway?

 

[macrophage69alpha]

SERMS dont lower oestrogen levels and can offset much of the negative effect of too much oestrogen suppression. (hence why people taking letro find that adding nolva or clomid- restores sex drive and helps with dry joints etc from too much oestrogen suppression)

though SERM's have their own side effects as many a teary eyed clomid user will tell you.

the issue with the "report card" is that its totally self serving and its makes assertions about AR binding and ATD that apply equally to aromasin, though are unable to grasp that fact. They are completely incorrect assumptions based on a very poor interpretion of a study done before the aromatase system was well understood and how there are extreme differences between normal and castrated animal responses to aromatase suppression.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

anthony,

you dont know the person that invented phlogel (pluronic gel), you may know someone that sells it or promotes it as a transdermal matrix.

as far as transdermal delivery Phlogel is decent (not great, but decent) for hormones, because of their physiochemical properties. if they were not using a steroidal aromatase inhibitor its quite likely that it did not work very well, if at all.

its interesting that you say that it did not cause plasma suppression but then say that it caused severe neurological suppression. see how thats incongruent (you cant have one without the other)-- unless you directly implant a silastic capsules in the brain.

lets clarify again- not the inventor.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Maybe I misunderstood the guy...I'm trying to get in touch with him on this issue...but he said he used a transdermal carrier for an AI over 13 weeks and it took him a year to get over all of the side effects it caused.

I also know for a fact that another Transdermal AI was pulled off the market for similar reasons. Again, hopefully he has time to reply to this....the Arnold is this weekend and I know he's going ...

 

[Anthony Roberts]

how much test were you taking?

or was this off cycle use?

I was doing (I think) 125mgs of Test Prop EOD with .25mgs of Letro.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

I was doing (I think) 125mgs of Test Prop EOD with .25mgs of Letro.

quite uncommon response, though certainly possible.

 

[triceptor]

what anthony roberts has stated is correct about transdermal AI. one correction though.. i didn't invent PholJel I operate the Pholel.us websie and have US distribution rights. I prepared an advanced version of PhloJel Ultra wit the help of Dr. Jim Rogers (inventor of PhloJel) to deliver androstenetrione.

I ran a 13 week cycle at moderate dosing - 1.5ml (10% concentration) per day. Throighout the cycle I maintained peak FT levels of 70+ pg/ml. on week 10 my FT level dropped to 49 pg/ml at the same dosing scheme. By week 12 I started to present some confounding symptoms including mild tremor upon awakening, fatigue, anxiety, palpitation, hypothermia, depression. When I ceased use my endocrine system collapsed. Everything sout of the pituitary was screwed.

Most annoying are the symptoms of lowered expression of aromatase at the brain. Spontaneous aromatization in brain tissue is responsible for on-demand production of E2 which si required for both dopamine transport (tremors) and seratonin transport (depression). At the same time E2 is anxielytic and thus the lowered production at the brain manifests itself as anxiety.

I could go on and on about what I understand NOW about how important both aromatase enzyme in brain tissue as well as E2 are to men. Sufice to say that it will be the better part of a year before all of my symptoms go away and my endocrine system rights itself.

Sustained delievry of an AI is akin to the therapy given to men for prostate cancer - androgen deprivation therapy - a form of chemical castration uses long acting GnRH analouges to overstimulate the HPT till it shuts down. this is what transdermal AI's do basically. Except with one nasty side effect not seen in androgen deprivation therapy - and that is the consistant assualt on the aromatase enzyme. the body can not keep up with the production of new aromatase enzyme. you end up with dangerously low levels in the brain.

I would NOT recomend a transdermal AI - and remember I benefit from your purchases of PhloJel Ultra so this is no pimp job. In this case oral is better. Taken at night before bedtime alows the pulsitile nature of testosterone production to be observed and allows the body sufficient time to reporduce new aromatase enzyme to maintain healthy levels of E2.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

what anthony roberts has stated is correct about transdermal AI. one correction though.. i didn't invent PholJel I operate the Pholel.us websie and have US distribution rights. I prepared an advanced version of PhloJel Ultra wit the help of Dr. Jim Rogers (inventor of PhloJel) to deliver androstenetrione.

I ran a 13 week cycle at moderate dosing - 1.5ml (10% concentration) per day. Throighout the cycle I maintained peak FT levels of 70+ pg/ml. on week 10 my FT level dropped to 49 pg/ml at the same dosing scheme. By week 12 I started to present some confounding symptoms including mild tremor upon awakening, fatigue, anxiety, palpitation, hypothermia, depression. When I ceased use my endocrine system collapsed. Everything sout of the pituitary was screwed.

Most annoying are the symptoms of lowered expression of aromatase at the brain. Spontaneous aromatization in brain tissue is responsible for on-demand production of E2 which si required for both dopamine transport (tremors) and seratonin transport (depression). At the same time E2 is anxielytic and thus the powered production at the brain manifests itself as anxiety.

I could go on and on about what I understand NOW about how important both aromatase enzyme in brain tissue as well as E2 are to men. Sufice to say thatit will be the better part of a year before all of my symptoms go away and my endocrine system rights itself.

Sustained delievry of an AI is akin to the therapy given to men for prostate cancer - androgen deprivation therapy - a form of chemical castration uses long actin GnRH analouges to overstimulate the HPT till it shuts down. this is what transdermal AI's do basically. Except wiht one nasty side efefct not seen in androgen deprivation therapy - and that is the consistant assualt on the aromatase enzyme. the body can not keep up with the production of new aromatase enzyme. you end up with dangerously low levels in the brain.

I would NOT recomend a transdermal AI. In this case oral is better. Taken at night before bedtime alows the pulsitile nature of testosterone production to be observed and allows the body sufficient time to reporduce new aromatase enzyme to maintain healthy levels of E2.

Thanks....this is the correct story...I knew I was kinda on target but not exactly...

 

[macrophage69alpha]

In this case oral is better. Taken at night before bedtime alows the pulsitile nature of testosterone production to be observed and allows the body sufficient time to reporduce new aromatase enzyme to maintain healthy levels of E2.

this shows that you might want to research further aromatase inhibitors. because letrozole, anastrozole and aromasin regardless of when they are dosed will maintain the same level of suppression, all their half lives are greater than 24hrs.


agree that its quite likely that the very high dosage you were using 150mg/day (even with low grade delivery 10%- guess that its higher- though have not looked extensively at pluronics for a couple years), without exogenous testosterone is too much.


extended use at such a high level would lead to severe suppression and side effects. the same as if you had taken letro at 2.5mg ED for that period.

 

[triceptor]

this shows that you might want to research further aromatase inhibitors. because letrozole, anastrozole and aromasin regardless of when they are dosed will maintain the same level of suppression, all their half lives are greater than 24hrs.


agree that its quite likely that the very high dosage you were using 150mg/day (even with low grade delivery 10%- guess that its higher- though have not looked extensively at pluronics for a couple years), without exogenous testosterone is too much.


extended use at such a high level would lead to severe suppression and side effects. the same as if you had taken letro at 2.5mg ED for that period.

i am aware of the half lives of letro, etc. they all seem to be very long. in fact i have a close friend who operates an anti aging clinic and its for that reason thet they dose AI every third to every fourth day.

Phlojel Ultra has a higher delivery rate. It doesn't have any pluronic BTW.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

i am aware of the half lives of letro, etc. they all seem to be very long. in fact i have a close friend who operates an anti aging clinic and its for that reason thet they dose AI every third to every fourth day.

Phlojel Ultra has a higher delivery rate. It doesn't have any pluronic BTW.

for HRT type purposes (especially older men (that are not obese) such reccs are good). though prefer attack dose with lowered doses as oestrogen levels normalize (especially obese users with oestrogenic type fat patterns).


having read your PM, your dose was WAY< WAY high (if your delivery estimates are on) even with huge amounts of exogenous test your probably would have experienced such suppression. It is pretty surprising that it took so long. while there is no strict data would guess that it would be the equivalent of 100mg or more of aromasin per day, perhaps even as suppressive as 10mg of letro/day-- maybe more.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

When I did my research on AI's for my book....I found that (for example) with regards to anastrozole was eliminated by 85% hepatic mechanism. this seems to hold true for alot of the AI's, which is not surprising, considering the fact that they're orally administered (naturally...I'm not presenting this as any sort of revelation).

So I suppose what Triceptor was saying is that in this case, with transdermal application of an AI, wouldn't it be released at a much slower rate, and not subject to this degree/type of elimination. I guess what Triceptor was saying was that ...there was too much AI hanging around for too long, without being eliminated.

And this is what caused his problems....I suspect...

I mean...isn't this going to be an issue with any transdermal AI?

 

[macrophage69alpha]

anthony,

you really should not have to have this explained to you. most drugs are eliminated hepatically (including ATD, aromasin and all anabolic steroids). hepatic elimination is irrelevant in this case (and pretty with every case unless hepatic metabolism is impaired or altered).

Half life is what is relevant (atd actually has a relatively short half life- which is extended by transdermal lag). Letro and arimidex are going to "hang around", your words, a lot longer than a dosing of transdermal ATD.

before you try to enter into this to help your little buddy (wont go into detail, but pretty sure you know whats meant)... learn the material and the systems yourself.

its tiring having to explain so much to an "expert".


what caused his problems were rediculously high doses of a potent aromatase inhibitor without any exogenous steroid hormones.

 

[k6jatu37]

Anthony Roberts- you wrote a book? What this thing I heard about t3 lowering fina related gyno?

 

[Mr.X]

Anthony Roberts- you wrote a book? What this thing I heard about t3 lowering fina related gyno?

Anabolic Steroids - Ultimate Research Guide by Anthony Roberts (BOOK)
(not ebook, full book)

NO ADVERTISING- you know better

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Anthony Roberts- you wrote a book?

Yep. I did...a real Paper Book.

But to keep this thread on track, I'm currently doing research into a transdermal AI that was PULLED OFF THE MARKET because of it being dangerous.

I think that Triceptor makes a good case for avoiding transdermal delivery of AIs, as his use of one in this fashion caused him a years worth of difficulty.

To quote him:

Transdermal AI's = Chemical Castration

Although that's a bit dramatic, I think his reasoning is sound.

Doesn't it bother anyone that someone who used a transdsermal AI, a year ago, is still suffering side effects from it? Isn't that enough to say "well, hell, since Oral AI's haven't had this same effect in anyone I know....shit...I think I'll stick with what I know to be safe..."?

Why not stick with oral AI's and not use the transdermal...? Triceptor used a transdermal AI and paid for it in many ways...and he's been good enough to come here to share his terrible experience with it...

Why don't we learn from this and stick with other stuff? I mean....shit...what ADVANTAGES do a transdermal AI give us over an oral one? None! So why bother....?

Now, when we look at Triceptor and see what happened to him....we can see one of the possible disadvantages of a transdermal. Why not learn from this and stick with oral AI's?

 

[macrophage69alpha]

Anthony,

1. name the transdermal AI. Last time the one you named was actually a 7-keto (which was pulled not for being dangerous but for patent infringement). You also referenced one that was pulled because it advertising was illegal. Both of which were avant products.

2. you are so transparent as well as incapable of understanding the issues. the issue here is too high a level of aromatase inhibition. It has absolutely nothing to do with transdermal delivery. if you took 10mg of letro everyday for 12 weeks without taking any steroids that same thing might happen. Might because there are other factors that need to be taken into account in the case of triceptor (the fact that he is nearly 50 years old) and that such and endocrine disruption can be much more devastating at such an age where many men are more than ready for HRT.

3. after speaking thoroughly with triceptor he is quite aware that it was the dosing that caused his problem and not the transdermal delivery. According to his calculations he was achieving plasma delivery of nearly 60mg of ATD per day. More than 10 times the amount that it takes to achieved significant oestrogen suppression.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

A transdermal AI has already been pulled off the market. Here's an e-mail I got from the person who had the plug pulled on it, after I e-mailed them for more informaiton:

It would be accurate to state that I was involved with another person
who was going to fund the product and I had worked with JAR Pharma to
develop an advanced carrier specifically for androtrione but
I pulled the plug. I just felt that there was too much liability due to
potential side effects. I'd rather not mention the
name of the product at this time. The website is still active and I need to
get it taken down first.

I have no dog in this fight.

I don't sell any nutritional products or research chems. I stated that letro gave me joint and immune system problems. I have stated elsewhere that clomid gives me vision problems.

Again, I'm not selling anything; just sharing my experiences and concerns, and those of my friend(s).

I just want the members to know that a similar (transdermal AI) product has given someone I know HUGE problems, and that a similar product has already been pulled from the market for potential liability.

I posted reams of now-deleted scientific data and studies in another thread on this topic -and can't imagine finding the time to do so again. Sorry....fool me once, shame on you, etc...I'm not one to waste my time. And no, I didn't delete them myself. Oh...and oddly, once I started voicing my concerns with this product, my Avatar disappeared. And I can not post a new one. Oh...and I was banned too.

All, interestingly, from opposing this product. I was only active in those threads at the time all of this occured.

But perhaps the fact that a similar product has already been pulled for Liability reasons, and the fact that a member of this board has already stated that they've experienced huge problems with it will disuade members from using it.

 

[macrophage69alpha]

what a rediculous lie. You came here to argue on a topic which you have no understanding of at the request of another. So you are right you dont have a dog in the fight, you are the dog.

Triceptor the member that you refer to had problem not because he was using a topical aromatase inhibitor, but because he was using 10 times the dose needed for clinical suppression while not using any steroids for 4 months. So basically like taking 10-20mg of letrozole everyday for 4 months. It is strange how you are either too ignorant or too biased (probably a bit of both) to understand conceptually why it was the high dose and not the delivery that caused any problems.

lets clear this up, all the studies you posted were refuted. You did not understand them. Of course when they were refuted you did not argue the study you went on the same kind of idiotic rant that you have here where you have no substantiation for your claims. This was coupled with a number of slanderous comments (your slanderous comment were edited), when you re-edited the posts and added more slanderous comments you were suspended (not banned).

You are shill and fool. If you had anything legitimate it would be considered. Because whats in the interest of the user is important. But you dont. You wont even admit or perhaps are unable to understand that using more than 10 times the clinical dose of a drug for an extended period might cause problems, particularly in someone that was nearly 50 years old. If you had any shred of impartiality you would have at least recognized that. But you just continued on your rant.

no one fooled you, but yourself. and you are not fooling anyone here.

 

[Ulter]

Anthony you've done it again. You are in the middle of an argument about something you simply don't understand. Why do you keep picking topics that are over your head. All the useful information regarding estrogens in this book that has your name on it came from other people like Nandi. You don't even understand the studies you use in YOUR arguments. Go to school, get a human biology degree and come back when you're qualified and have a better understanding.

 

[Svengali]

^^

 

[needtogetaas]

People lose their sex drive on Femera - letrozole - . It's good for precontest, and good for getting rid of gynecomastia, but is overkill for typical cycles.

I used it for a year. I had no estrogen left, my joints hurt and I was always sick. But I got rid of my gynecomastia...I wouldn't reccomend it unless it's for pre-contest or gynecomastia.

 

[Anthony Roberts]

Anthony you've done it again. You are in the middle of an argument about something you simply don't understand. Why do you keep picking topics that are over your head. All the useful information regarding estrogens in this book that has your name on it came from other people like Nandi. You don't even understand the studies you use in YOUR arguments. Go to school, get a human biology degree and come back when you're qualified and have a better understanding.

FYI: Nandi thought Ulter was an idiot and a shill, and Macro was a liar and not worth his time. Read their interactions on Nandi's old board, if you want...it's clear who Nandi respected and didn't.