after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

[wrestler69]

after the bottle of 1AD is gone...what should i do to restore natual test levels. right now i am taking 2 pills a day for the first week. then i will up it to 3 pills the second and third..then back down to 2 the fourth and 1 the fifth. Is there something i should throw mix. I don't have acess to clomid or 4AD.
thanx

 

[riskybizz007]

I used Maca post cycle and felt it worked great. Brought the testes back to normal size and they descended.

 

[blackdream71]

what brand of MACA did you use and where did you purchase it? And by the way man your taking way too little of the 1-AD, you need to take AT LEAST 600mg per day for good results....

 

[pa1ad]

after the bottle of 1AD is gone...what should i do to restore natual test levels. right now i am taking 2 pills a day for the first week. then i will up it to 3 pills the second and third..then back down to 2 the fourth and 1 the fifth. Is there something i should throw mix. I don't have acess to clomid or 4AD.
thanx

I will have a supplement to restore your natural production in 8 weeks or so. That is, the supplement will be available in 8 weeks, not that it will take 8 weeks for the supplement to work. whatever

 

[blackdream71]

that's cool PAT, what will be the ingredients in this new product?

 

[Fortes]

Blackdream

You really do not need 600 mg/day to see results . . .

I started 1-AD @ 235 lbs. After 4 weeks of 400mg/day divided into 4 doses (1 pill every 3 hours), I weighed in at 250. During that last week I repped my old bench max (315) 5 times and my old squat max (405) 4 times.

Moral of the story: don't go crazy on the dosages unless you have to. Save your money, reduce potential sides, and stretch that androgen out. Unless, of course, you are doing a 2 on/ 4 off type of cycle, in which case you'd want to go 900mg/day for the first week, and continue with anywhere between 300-900 mg/day for the second.

Oh yeah, if you don't taper off, use an anti-estrogen and a nut grower post cycle for crying out loud!

 

[pa1ad]

that's cool PAT, what will be the ingredients in this new product?

something completely new that you have never heard of

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

I will have a supplement to restore your natural production in 8 weeks or so. That is, the supplement will be available in 8 weeks, not that it will take 8 weeks for the supplement to work. whatever

Hi Pat,

Does this work via a different mechanism than opposing estrogen to increase LH? I ask because anti-estrogens and aromatase inhibitors do not realy help you restore testosterone production post cycle.


- Bill

 

[manny78]

something completely new that you have never heard of

if it's cheaper and as affective as clomid then why not.

 

[Primal X]

if it's cheaper and as affective as clomid then why not.

I get 24 clomid for $10. That means my nuts are hanging again after only about $15 spent. I doubt PA's product will be cheaper, but more effective, maybe.

 

[manny78]

I get 24 clomid for $10. That means my nuts are hanging again after only about $15 spent. I doubt PA's product will be cheaper, but more effective, maybe.

I doubt too. Plus I also doubt it will be more effective. Clomids are easy to get, few sides on most of us and cheap, compared to some crap like Tribulus for example. Trib can actually work but you need a lot of it and you will end up spending 2-3 times more than on clomids.....

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Clomid is an anti-estrogen (read above).

- Bill

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

Hi Pat,

Does this work via a different mechanism than opposing estrogen to increase LH? I ask because anti-estrogens and aromatase inhibitors do not realy help you restore testosterone production post cycle.


- Bill

that is a pretty general statement bill. I might agree to it in regards to drastic shutdown due to long term abuse but I definitely disagree in regards to recovery after short cycles in occasional users.

 

[manny78]

Clomid is an anti-estrogen (read above).

- Bill

so you're basically telling me that my post-cycle recovery with clomids were all in my head ? I was just having hallucination ? Come on, blood works dont lie...

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

that is a pretty general statement bill. I might agree to it in regards to drastic shutdown due to long term abuse but I definitely disagree in regards to recovery after short cycles in occasional users.

The body doesn't need help raising LH. LH levels rise and fall rapidly, in direct relation to sex steroid levels. The weak link in the HPTA is the testes, which can't respond well to LH due to artophy. This is the whole problem post cycle, not increasing LH.

Anti-estrogens/aromatase inhibitors do a good job of stimulating the HPTA when it is intact and there are normal estrogen levels, but do little post cycle, regardless of the length of drug use. If there are high LH levels already, and little estrogen to deal with in the first place because T is suppressed, how would these types of drugs do anything of value?


- Bill

 

[blackdream71]

something completely new that you have never heard of

sounds interesting i will definitely try it out.....

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

so you're basically telling me that my post-cycle recovery with clomids were all in my head ? I was just having hallucination ? Come on, blood works dont lie...

That is exactly what I am saying. What type of blood work have you had done? Just noticing that you testosterone levels are back to normal post cycle doesn't qualify as a valid comparative study. They come back on their own.

 

[manny78]

That is exactly what I am saying. What type of blood work have you had done? Just noticing that you testosterone levels are back to normal post cycle doesn't qualify as a valid comparative study. They come back on their own.

So what are you suggesting as a "comparative study" ? Anyway as far as I'm concern, and I'm not the only one, I know that clomids have always worked pretty well. If I keep my gains and my sex drive why should I complain ? There's no miracle drug I agree, but some seem to work better than others. Cant say the same with tribulus....

 

[latinus_spicticus]

Maybe your theory (it is just that--a theory) about anti-e's not speeding up post-cycle recovery holds some water. But using arimidex can prevent post cycle gyno that often occurs in steroid users. No supplements that you shills can come up with will ever do anything to speed up post cycle recovery if clomiphene and arimidex wont, though. Keep the dreams alive, guys.

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

The body doesn't need help raising LH. LH levels rise and fall rapidly, in direct relation to sex steroid levels. The weak link in the HPTA is the testes, which can't respond well to LH due to artophy. This is the whole problem post cycle, not increasing LH.

Anti-estrogens/aromatase inhibitors do a good job of stimulating the HPTA when it is intact and there are normal estrogen levels, but do little post cycle, regardless of the length of drug use. If there are high LH levels already, and little estrogen to deal with in the first place because T is suppressed, how would these types of drugs do anything of value?


- Bill

This seems in direct contrast to everything i have read on the subject, and actual blood assays i have seen on suppressed steroid users. LH/FSH is almost always suppressed in these people as well as testosterone. I do not know where you are getting your data from. I am interested in seeing documentation of this Bill.

Also, there is literature that shows marked effects from clomid use on suppressed steroid users (with suppressed gonadtopins as well as sex hormones).

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

The body doesn't need help raising LH. LH levels rise and fall rapidly, in direct relation to sex steroid levels. The weak link in the HPTA is the testes, which can't respond well to LH due to artophy. This is the whole problem post cycle, not increasing LH.

Anti-estrogens/aromatase inhibitors do a good job of stimulating the HPTA when it is intact and there are normal estrogen levels, but do little post cycle, regardless of the length of drug use. If there are high LH levels already, and little estrogen to deal with in the first place because T is suppressed, how would these types of drugs do anything of value?


- Bill

Also, lets say your theory is true (which i do not think it is in the first place). If the testes are unresponsive to elevated LH post cycle then what CAN you do? Certainly HCG won't work either, since its just an LH mimic.

 

[blackdream71]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

Also, lets say your theory is true (which i do not think it is in the first place). If the testes are unresponsive to elevated LH post cycle then what CAN you do? Certainly HCG won't work either, since its just an LH mimic.

that's a good point!

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

This seems in direct contrast to everything i have read on the subject, and actual blood assays i have seen on suppressed steroid users. LH/FSH is almost always suppressed in these people as well as testosterone. I do not know where you are getting your data from. I am interested in seeing documentation of this Bill.

I will cite reference later when in the office. But I am not talking about during the cycle Pat. I am talking post cycle. Of course LH levels become suppressed while taking steroids. They also reboud very rapidly.

Also, there is literature that shows marked effects from clomid use on suppressed steroid users (with suppressed gonadtopins as well as sex hormones).

Anti-estrogens would be effective if prolonged suppression were caused by insufficient gonadotropins, which they are in some people, but the issue post-cycle is typically very different.

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

Also, lets say your theory is true (which i do not think it is in the first place). If the testes are unresponsive to elevated LH post cycle then what CAN you do? Certainly HCG won't work either, since its just an LH mimic.

HCG is about the best thing. It compliments the heightened endo LH with a bolus level of stimulation. In my experience it is the only thing that really effects post-cycle recovery. But I see where you are going, and no, there is no magic bullet. The testes need to restore their old size, which does take time first and foremost.


- Bill

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

HCG is about the best thing. It compliments the heightened endo LH with a bolus level of stimulation. In my experience it is the only thing that really effects post-cycle recovery. But I see where you are going, and no, there is no magic bullet. The testes need to restore their old size, which does take time first and foremost.


- Bill

Or use an anti-estrogen to raise your levels of LH to supraphysiological levels to speed up the recovery of the testes.

And so we are right back where we started

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

Or use an anti-estrogen to raise your levels of LH to supraphysiological levels to speed up the recovery of the testes.

And so we are right back where we started

Yes, right back to assuming that anti-estrognes will have an additive effect when LH levels are already elevated, and T and E2 levels suppressed.

- Bill

 

[pa1ad]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

Yes, right back to assuming that anti-estrognes will have an additive effect when LH levels are already elevated, and T and E2 levels suppressed.

- Bill

I don't recall ever seeing anyone with elevated LH and suppressed T and E post cycle. Not that it cannot happen, but usually gonadotropins and sex hormones are simultaneously suppressed

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: after 1AD... clomid? Trib? ZMA?

I don't recall ever seeing anyone with elevated LH and suppressed T and E post cycle. Not that it cannot happen, but usually gonadotropins and sex hormones are simultaneously suppressed

They are simultaneously suppressed when steroids are initiated, but return to normal at very different rates once the steroids are discontinued. That is the whole problem post cycle. LH becomes elevated quickly, but the testes don't respond right away because they have lost mass. I'll post the reference showing this clearly tomorrow, but to sum up it shows that even while testosterone levels were still declining (T. Enanthate was given), LH was already going back up. LH levels peaked long before Testosterone returned to normal.

 

[blackdream71]

hahahahahaha, two steroid gurus going at it, i love this kinda shit.......

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

The study is: Acta Endocrinol 78 (1975) 373-84 "Effect is long-term testosterone oenanthate administration...". It is a very good paper looking at hormone levels many weeks/months after steroid administration. About the most detailed one I could find.

If you look at the graphs on pg. 379 you will see clearly that LH is on the rise 2 or 3 weeks after the steroid is ended. But after hitting baseline however, T doesn't really start responding for quite some time thereafter (and it does so very slowly), in spite of the rising and substantial LH levels.

I'll give you that anti-estrogens, and fostering LH along the way by blocking the minor feedback from returning T and e2 levels, are not totally worthless. But it is just that the key issue post-cycle is testicular atrophy, not worrying so much about suppressed LH.


- Bill

 

[OVRTrainer]

Bump!!!

 

[smokinghawk]

yeah, yeah, yeah guys...but until all that stuff's sorted out and new products released, what's best for coming off 1-AD? Clomid? Nolvadex? M?

 

[Scatocephalus]

Right on smokinghawk, that's what I'm wondering...

 

[manny78]

yeah, yeah, yeah guys...but until all that stuff's sorted out and new products released, what's best for coming off 1-AD? Clomid? Nolvadex? M?

clomids.

 

[Rémy!]

I would prefer the Nolvadex over Clomid.

They have virtually the same effect on Test levels, Nolva is better at increasing pituitary sensitivity, is more anti-estrogenic, and is cheaper.

Both would work - but I would prefer the nolva.

Tribulus

.. Has no effect on serum testosterone levels at all.
The pro-erectile properties are not linked.

TRIBULUS has NO EFFECT on serum TESTOSTERONE

 

[Bill Llewellyn]

Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens, and as such do little post-cycle unless accompanied by HCG. If you wre going to use them alone I wouldn't even bother IMO.

- Bill