Advice for TRT treatment.

[Bridger]

This is a post I made at Irontrybe(another board i frequent) a few days ago. I have had no response there and think this forum will have more helpful people. Also, I am 22.



Well, I don't really know how to feel about this. I started seeing an internal medicine MD a few weeks ago because I *knew* my test was low. I had the normal symptoms. Tired all the time, no energy/endurance, decreased libido, fat around the midsection(even with a healthy diet), irritability, depressed mood (more than expected with bipolar), just feeling like crap, etc.

At first she didn't think that was the issue because of lab work from 2 years ago that showed my Total testosterone to be in the 400 range. So, she only checked my CBC, kidney, and thyroid at first. Those were fine, thyroid a little off but normal. So my second visit I got her to test my test levels. She tested my Total, Free, free %, bio-available, SHBG, and Albunim(sp?). My Total test came back at a whopping 132!! range is from 400-1080. Her nurse called me with the results and said the Dr. didn't want to do anything about it except test it again in a few months. I called back and said thats not good enough and saw her again this morning.

Today she drew blood to check my pituitary functions to possibly find out the cause. LH, FSH, and Prolactin. And she talked briefly about treatment; androgel, testim, and injections. I should get the results of today's bloodwork beginning of next week. I asked her if she has experience treating this in men, she replied that she does but that an endo obviously has more exp.

My concern is how she wants to treat this. Whether she will be aggressive and smart or just enough to put me in range. I'll be 23 in two weeks, if im going to be on supplemental testosterone i think i should be in the upper 1/2 or 1/3 of range based on my age. Also, whether she knows that an anti-e should be used to combat sides. I don't expect feeling or results like i would be on a cycle, but i don't want the bare minimum dosage either.

I'm thinking that I will discuss what the options are and what she is willing to do after the bloodwork comes back. If i think her idea of treatment is sufficient, I will give it a go. Otherwise, I will take my test results and see an endo. Time is of the essence as my current insurance runs out at the end of March. And I won't have insurance again until July, i think(New job).



Can any of you who are on HRT/TRT or have knowledge about this offer me some direction?

Or what should i find out about a new Dr?

Are the creams/gels or injects a better way to begin to try and get my test up in range?


I can't afford anti-aging clinics unfortunately and don't know anyone who has gone through this who can recommend a good doc in my area. So i don't know what to look for.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[JetCityDude]

Hi

Lots of info to cover here. One goal would be to find out why you are low. TRT is for life and if you can solve it, do so.

If your LH comes back low, then it most likey means that your pituitary is not sending enough LH to the testes and you have "secondary hypogonadism". If your LH is good, then your testes are not making the Testosterone and you are "primary"

Most people here like injections. The standard to get you in the upper-third is 100 mg/week of testosterone, with the injection done weekly. Inexperienced doctors like to do 2 weeks @ 200, but that puts you too high and lets you go too low.

As far as gels, Testim seems to work better. There is a big cost difference though. A bottle of T that will last you 18 weeks or so costs $125 or less. The testim could be $200/month. If you will be out of insurance, consider the injections.

Regarding Anti-E, this can be tough and I am struggling with it myself. I do not want to be on Arimidex for the rest of my life because I have no idea what long-term effects it has. I am trying to use DIM (Di-Indoyl-methane) which comes from broccolli and similar to keep mine in check.

Also, look for male Urologists, not just endos. On another board, we hate endos. I know insurance is important, but making the right decisions are more important.

go to www.allthingsmale.com and look for the documents under publications. They can explain more than I can.

I will try and write more this weekend. I also have 50 medical journals on TRT. PM me with an email and I will get them to you.

 

[Primordial Performance]

This is a post I made at Irontrybe(another board i frequent) a few days ago. I have had no response there and think this forum will have more helpful people. Also, I am 22.



Well, I don't really know how to feel about this. I started seeing an internal medicine MD a few weeks ago because I *knew* my test was low. I had the normal symptoms. Tired all the time, no energy/endurance, decreased libido, fat around the midsection(even with a healthy diet), irritability, depressed mood (more than expected with bipolar), just feeling like crap, etc.

At first she didn't think that was the issue because of lab work from 2 years ago that showed my Total testosterone to be in the 400 range. So, she only checked my CBC, kidney, and thyroid at first. Those were fine, thyroid a little off but normal. So my second visit I got her to test my test levels. She tested my Total, Free, free %, bio-available, SHBG, and Albunim(sp?). My Total test came back at a whopping 132!! range is from 400-1080. Her nurse called me with the results and said the Dr. didn't want to do anything about it except test it again in a few months. I called back and said thats not good enough and saw her again this morning.

Today she drew blood to check my pituitary functions to possibly find out the cause. LH, FSH, and Prolactin. And she talked briefly about treatment; androgel, testim, and injections. I should get the results of today's bloodwork beginning of next week. I asked her if she has experience treating this in men, she replied that she does but that an endo obviously has more exp.

My concern is how she wants to treat this. Whether she will be aggressive and smart or just enough to put me in range. I'll be 23 in two weeks, if im going to be on supplemental testosterone i think i should be in the upper 1/2 or 1/3 of range based on my age. Also, whether she knows that an anti-e should be used to combat sides. I don't expect feeling or results like i would be on a cycle, but i don't want the bare minimum dosage either.

I'm thinking that I will discuss what the options are and what she is willing to do after the bloodwork comes back. If i think her idea of treatment is sufficient, I will give it a go. Otherwise, I will take my test results and see an endo. Time is of the essence as my current insurance runs out at the end of March. And I won't have insurance again until July, i think(New job).



Can any of you who are on HRT/TRT or have knowledge about this offer me some direction?

Or what should i find out about a new Dr?

Are the creams/gels or injects a better way to begin to try and get my test up in range?


I can't afford anti-aging clinics unfortunately and don't know anyone who has gone through this who can recommend a good doc in my area. So i don't know what to look for.

Thanks for any advice.

There is a problem here and it could be so many things. At you age, three things come to mind. Obesity, sleep patterns, and stress. Do you have either of these?

Secondary primary causes are probably some over exposure to xeno or phyto estrogens. Do you eat a lot of food microwaved in plastic? How about soy foods?

Ive turned a few guys away from androgel (testim) and have gotten them to use Dermacrine instead. Since the switch they are lovin it. Id love to tell ya that you could use Dermacrine once, and it would jump start you for good… but I don’t know that for sure. It is a possibility… but I assume there are more fundamental problems here.

I can tell ya is that Dermacrine is a much better way to boost testosterone (and other androgens) than any test cream or shot that the doc will give you.
Weve got plenty of savlia tests showing Dermacrine can get you into "range" and some.

-Pp

 

[Primordial Performance]

Jetcitydude,

IC3 is a poor anti-e. Its great for reducing cancerous estrogens and increasing your “healthy” estrogens, but its not going to lower your total estrogen level. I suggest calcium-d-glucarate or resveratrol as better natural alternatives…. And of course… well.... you know.

-Pp

 

[Bridger]

Im not obese. 6'0" at 180 about 15%bf. I get plenty of sleep during the usual hours for my age. And don't eat soy products or microwaved plastic foods. My stress levels are normal for me. Perhaps even less than they've been in years.

I believe my problem comes from a deca/dbol(300mg/wk and 30mg/day) cycle i did two years ago that never fully recovered from. My PCT drugs were mistaken for recreational drugs and stolen.

However, my Dr. doesn't agree. She thinks it might be due to the Suboxone i take. Its a partial opiate agonist/antagonist. And some opiates are shown to lower Test levels. But I found a study on Pubmed that proves buprenorphine(main ingredient in Suboxone) to have no effect on testosterone levels in men.

Given this information, what might you think?

 

[Primordial Performance]

What are you using the suboxone for?

-Pp

 

[Primordial Performance]

Deca lingers in your system for years. Its possible that you remained suppressed from that Deca cycle for months after you last injection.

How long was you cycle anyway?

 

[Bridger]

The suboxone is used as methadone would be. As maintenance to control opiate cravings.

I did the deca a total of 8 weeks. I agree that it is probably the culprit for hormone suppression in my case. I don't believe my internist is very knowledgeable in regards to AAS.

 

[Primordial Performance]

Yeah Im familiar with suboxone. It is giving your hypothalamus mixed signals for sure – it [[could]] be having a negative impact on your HTPA despite what the study says. Is it necessary that you stay on it?

Any idea what you estrogen levels look like?

And are you using anything else?

-Pp

 

[Bridger]

Re: Advice for TRT treatment. *UPDATE*

Here is an update on my last lab test.

I called my Dr's office and talked to her nurse. She said that my pituitary functions (LH, FSH) came back normal. She didn't give the actual numbers and i didn't ask. I guess that means i have primary hypogonadism? This is a great birthday gift, Happy 23rd Birthday your balls don't work.

I told the nurse i want to start soon and would prefer to receive injections over test cream/gel. She said she would talk to the Dr and see when we can get started. I'm giving them one more hour to get back to me, then im calling. I'm very curious to hear what she wants to do and how open she is to suggestions.

 

[Primordial Performance]

Re: Advice for TRT treatment. *UPDATE*

Here is an update on my last lab test.

I called my Dr's office and talked to her nurse. She said that my pituitary functions (LH, FSH) came back normal. She didn't give the actual numbers and i didn't ask. I guess that means i have primary hypogonadism? This is a great birthday gift, Happy 23rd Birthday your balls don't work.

I told the nurse i want to start soon and would prefer to receive injections over test cream/gel. She said she would talk to the Dr and see when we can get started. I'm giving them one more hour to get back to me, then im calling. I'm very curious to hear what she wants to do and how open she is to suggestions.

The injectable test is a bad idea… this will only suppress your HTPA more than the test gel due to lack of circadian rhythm with esterfied test. If you go this route, expect to have problems for the rest of your life.

You’ve still got other options.

Did they check your prolactin and E1/E2 yet?

Also, I assume you have never done hCG?

-Pp

 

[Bridger]

Re: Advice for TRT treatment. *UPDATE*

The injectable test is a bad idea… this will only suppress your HTPA more than the test gel due to lack of circadian rhythm with esterfied test. If you go this route, expect to have problems for
the rest of your life.

You’ve still got other options.

Did they check your prolactin and E1/E2 yet?

Also, I assume you have never done hCG?

-Pp

No, i have not used HCG. Nor have my estradiol levels been checked. I asked for them, but Dr. didn't want to at that time. But i do believe my prolactin was checked along with my LH, FSH this last time. Believe it was normal, as i was told my lab came back normal. No numbers or ranges.

I'm well aware that my HPTA will be suppressed. But my HPTA is functioning at such a low level anyway.

IF there was a viable option for my body to produce enough testosterone, I would be interested in it.

What medications are you suggesting can restore testicular function?

Since my pituitary is sending proper signals to my testes, I would think that the problem lies therein. My body produces "normal" amounts of LH, so i don't know how HCG or more LH will do much good.

I will see the Dr. either (hopefully)tomorrow or next tuesday and get more info then.

 

[Primordial Performance]

I inquired about the hCG, wondering if you had used it before and perhaps desensitized your testis.

Id like to see some numbers for LH, FSH, prolactin and E1/E2 before I make a suggestion here.

BTW, how necessary is the suboxone your on? What is the opioid you are using it for?

-Pp

 

[Bridger]

I inquired about the hCG, wondering if you had used it before and perhaps desensitized your testis.

Id like to see some numbers for LH, FSH, prolactin and E1/E2 before I make a suggestion here.

BTW, how necessary is the suboxone your on? What is the opioid you are using it for?

-Pp

I was using cocaine and heroin heavily in the summer of 2005. I started the suboxone in the fall of 2005 to stop heroin cravings. It works very well. I have no reason to stop taking it. As i enjoy NOT using illicit recreational drugs anymore. I do not feel that it suppresses my test levels. My Dr.(suboxone specialist) who prescribes, whom i saw today, doesn't feel it affects it. He said none of his patients have had this problem and said he hasn't come across any info to indicate otherwise. I know opiates in *general* can lower test levels. However, buprenorphine is not a typical opiate, as I'm sure you know. And there is also a study on Pubmed about suboxone that supports this. But, there could be exceptions.

I will either see the Dr. in person tomorrow or talk to the nurse on the phone. I will get the numbers for the LH, FSH, and prolactin. As far as E2, i requested it last week but the Dr. was more concerned with my pituitary function and finding out why my total test was so low. 132, range 400-1080.

 

[D_Mac]

I was using cocaine and heroin heavily in the summer of 2005. I started the suboxone in the fall of 2005 to stop heroin cravings. It works very well. I have no reason to stop taking it. As i enjoy NOT using illicit recreational drugs anymore. I do not feel that it suppresses my test levels. My Dr.(suboxone specialist) who prescribes, whom i saw today, doesn't feel it affects it. He said none of his patients have had this problem and said he hasn't come across any info to indicate otherwise. I know opiates in *general* can lower test levels. However, buprenorphine is not a typical opiate, as I'm sure you know. And there is also a study on Pubmed about suboxone that supports this. But, there could be exceptions.

I will either see the Dr. in person tomorrow or talk to the nurse on the phone. I will get the numbers for the LH, FSH, and prolactin. As far as E2, i requested it last week but the Dr. was more concerned with my pituitary function and finding out why my total test was so low. 132, range 400-1080.

You should really get the estrogen levels, you need to see the whole picture to figure out where to go. Be wary on jumping right on HRT man, make sure you try everything else first. The goal is to get your natural system working, you are trashing that for the rest of your life taking test-gel or shots. Take another month and figure out all your options, try some supplements, try another doctor that specializes in post AAS patients. You are throwing away your chances of a normal life and giving in to lifelong dependence on these shots, they will not make you fully healthy, with HRT you are choosing life long-low dose steriod use, this should be a last resort. Get the whole picture and see what PP has to say, he is a good bro and has lots of experience with this kind of stuff, probly much more than your doc when it comes to post AAS users. The fact that your doc fails to take estrogen levels into account is a testament to this.

-D Mac

 

[Bridger]

If there is a way for my body to get back on track and produce enough testosterone I would rather do that. I just haven't come across anything that seems like an effective treatment.

And i agree about the Dr. i'm seeing right now. I feel she should have tested everything at once. I think she is unsure of the best way to go, so she has been taking it slow. I have an appointment on Tuesday with her. Its going to be hard to turn down legal testosterone and find a new doc. I plan on getting copies of my lab work and finding another doctor with experience in this. And there lies my problem.

I have a small list of endo's covered by my insurance. How do i go about determining which one is best for me? What questions in particular do i need to ask? There are urologists as well, however they are not rated as *premium providers* by my insurance. Im stressed as i only have a few more weeks of insurance coverage.

Thank you all for your input and opinions. Especially Primordial.

 

[Zircon]

you gotta find out first WHY it happened...otherwise you just treating symptons...which could uncover something else.

I agree, just get all those blood figures to us, should be able to figure it out.

 

[D_Mac]

If there is a way for my body to get back on track and produce enough testosterone I would rather do that. I just haven't come across anything that seems like an effective treatment.

And i agree about the Dr. i'm seeing right now. I feel she should have tested everything at once. I think she is unsure of the best way to go, so she has been taking it slow. I have an appointment on Tuesday with her. Its going to be hard to turn down legal testosterone and find a new doc. I plan on getting copies of my lab work and finding another doctor with experience in this. And there lies my problem.

I have a small list of endo's covered by my insurance. How do i go about determining which one is best for me? What questions in particular do i need to ask? There are urologists as well, however they are not rated as *premium providers* by my insurance. Im stressed as i only have a few more weeks of insurance coverage.

Thank you all for your input and opinions. Especially Primordial.

If you only have a few weeks of ins. coverage then you won't really be able to stay on HRT for a while anyway, so why start for a couple months then be back off without HRT in a couple months with your system more jacked than you were to begin with? Unless I am missing something, and get us the numbers, call your office and demand them, it's your records they have to supply them. And get that estrogen tested

 

[Bridger]

I wouldn't start treatment then just stop because of insurance. IF i do start treatment, its more feasible in my situation to pay $115 for a bottle of cyp that last months rather than test gel/cream that is $270 for a tube that will last approx a month. And then i have to take into account any other meds to go with it. And the out of pocket costs for Dr visits. Its really going to be a bitch to try and pay an extra few hundred dollars a month for new Dr/treatments. This doesn't include the 3 other Dr's is see monthly and other medication.

And they will give me my records. I just haven't asked for them. Like i said, i will get paper copies when i go in on tuesday. Also, discuss with the Dr. my diagnosis and if there is any chance my levels can be brought up to where they should be without exo test. Regardless, I'm trying to find a more experienced Dr to work with.

If anyone knows of any treatment that is successful in restoring natural hormone production it would be go to know to talk to the doc about it.

 

[thelion2005]

I am on HRT for life, but my situation is different because of my age vs yours.

A self designed HRT program is simple and if you are not happy with the Dr and her response, why not give it a try?

100 mg of test p/w, 0.25 a-dex twice a week, and 1 iu HGH eod are the drugs,
The diet is low in fast sugars.
The exercises are a mix of light aerobics and a standard weight training routine.
Recovery is 8 hours sleep and a brief PM nap.

Try it for 8 weeks and see if you feel and look better. Have blood work done to see your chemistry. This will tell the tale.

 

[D_Mac]

I wouldn't start treatment then just stop because of insurance. IF i do start treatment, its more feasible in my situation to pay $115 for a bottle of cyp that last months rather than test gel/cream that is $270 for a tube that will last approx a month. And then i have to take into account any other meds to go with it. And the out of pocket costs for Dr visits. Its really going to be a bitch to try and pay an extra few hundred dollars a month for new Dr/treatments. This doesn't include the 3 other Dr's is see monthly and other medication.

And they will give me my records. I just haven't asked for them. Like i said, i will get paper copies when i go in on tuesday. Also, discuss with the Dr. my diagnosis and if there is any chance my levels can be brought up to where they should be without exo test. Regardless, I'm trying to find a more experienced Dr to work with.

If anyone knows of any treatment that is successful in restoring natural hormone production it would be go to know to talk to the doc about it.

Well I am sure you've seen the dermacrine threads around here, actually let me link you to one, this a guy in a very similar situation to you, he is 23 and stopped his HRT then went with Dermacrine and is having good luck so far,

http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/s...ge=4&pp=20&highlight=girlfriend+buying+bottle

Re: Week 2 of Dermacrine <results>
After a year of aggressive HRT I decided to stop and give nature a chance. 2 months into proper PCT I was depressed and my workouts sucked. I had no sex drive and thought I would never wake up with a hard on again. After 5 days of using dermacrine I had a positive mental attitude, my workouts significantly improved in poundages and volume, and I finally have morning wood again. Dermacrine is a MUST for PCT.

The girlfriend asked me, "Whats going on, your on something." She likes it so much that she is buying the next bottle. How's that for a placebo effect?

Thank you Dermacrine

it would be a better alternative than test cream, problem with test cream is that you just get test, none of the other androgens, and it will shut down your natural production so bad you will probly have fertility problems, it is at least worth a try b4 you go on HRT.

 

[Bridger]

Re: Advice for TRT treatment. *UPDATE*

Well, here is an update to my situation.

I was seeing an internist, but didn't like her treatment/knowledge in the matter. So, I saw an endocrinologist that she recommended. I was skeptical at first. However, after my initial visit with the endo I felt very confident and relieved. She was extremely knowledgeable and thorough. She asked me about age of puberty, diet, illegal and prescription drug use(which was extensive), exercise/working out, performed an MRI(no tumors), more blood work, etc. This blood test covered these:

Thyroid hormones (TSH, Free T3 &T4)
Estradiol
Cortisol
IGF-1
Lipids
DHEA-S
ACTH

So, I went in today to find out the results and inquire about treatment. I was diagnosed as hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, hypothyroid, high cholesterol, borderline hypertension, and high IRON saturation in my blood. Wow, someone might guess im 53yr old if they saw that! My TSH has nearly doubled in about 6 weeks. Thus, my T4 thyroid hormone level is very low and T3 is fine though. She attributed my low test to my use of Deca and my pituitary not recovering from it. OR it could be medicinal, most likely the lithium which commonly causes hypothyroidism among other things. On a good note, Im fertile and all that is good.


For treatment, I'm on 150mg test cyp a week(i don't think prices are allowed, but it was damn cheap for 10mL @200mg/mL). Also, trying Levoxyl(T4) at 88mcg/day. In 30 days, i go for blood work to check levels of free & bio test, Thyroid hormones, B-12 levels(for iron saturation), and hemacrit(i think). And she said if i have estrogen issues(nips, bloating,etc) to let her know and she will call in Arimidex. I think ill be fine as i was fine on deca/dbol and my estrogen levels were at zero this time. I really like her as she said she likes to treat the person/symptoms instead of just treating the number on the test. She also joked about how some guys will take something to lower test/ up E2 levels and that if someone wants test they should just ask. She believes it is generally good if kept in check. That was good to hear.

I feel good about everything, except for the thryoid meds. I know its really hit or miss with it and takes time to find correct dose. I asked her about Armour thyroid since a lot of people seem to like. She doesn't, said that the ratio of T4 to T3(4:1) isn't like whats in the body and that it was granular, inconsistent. I guess she meant that it comes from bovines, cows, that the concentration can vary between batches or something. I don't need T3 at this time anyway so it doesn't matter.

Does anyone on here have experience with the "Levoxyl" brand in particular? I read today that some people have a better experience with this brand than others or generics.

Wow,thats a lot to write. To those that read all of it, thank you.

 

[D_Mac]

Re: Advice for TRT treatment. *UPDATE*

Well, here is an update to my situation.

I was seeing an internist, but didn't like her treatment/knowledge in the matter. So, I saw an endocrinologist that she recommended. I was skeptical at first. However, after my initial visit with the endo I felt very confident and relieved. She was extremely knowledgeable and thorough. She asked me about age of puberty, diet, illegal and prescription drug use(which was extensive), exercise/working out, performed an MRI(no tumors), more blood work, etc. This blood test covered these:

Thyroid hormones (TSH, Free T3 &T4)
Estradiol
Cortisol
IGF-1
Lipids
DHEA-S
ACTH

So, I went in today to find out the results and inquire about treatment. I was diagnosed as hypogonadotropic hypogonadism, hypothyroid, high cholesterol, borderline hypertension, and high IRON saturation in my blood. Wow, someone might guess im 53yr old if they saw that! My TSH has nearly doubled in about 6 weeks. Thus, my T4 thyroid hormone level is very low and T3 is fine though. She attributed my low test to my use of Deca and my pituitary not recovering from it. OR it could be medicinal, most likely the lithium which commonly causes hypothyroidism among other things. On a good note, Im fertile and all that is good.


For treatment, I'm on 150mg test cyp a week(i don't think prices are allowed, but it was damn cheap for 10mL @200mg/mL). Also, trying Levoxyl(T4) at 88mcg/day. In 30 days, i go for blood work to check levels of free & bio test, Thyroid hormones, B-12 levels(for iron saturation), and hemacrit(i think). And she said if i have estrogen issues(nips, bloating,etc) to let her know and she will call in Arimidex. I think ill be fine as i was fine on deca/dbol and my estrogen levels were at zero this time. I really like her as she said she likes to treat the person/symptoms instead of just treating the number on the test. She also joked about how some guys will take something to lower test/ up E2 levels and that if someone wants test they should just ask. She believes it is generally good if kept in check. That was good to hear.

I feel good about everything, except for the thryoid meds. I know its really hit or miss with it and takes time to find correct dose. I asked her about Armour thyroid since a lot of people seem to like. She doesn't, said that the ratio of T4 to T3(4:1) isn't like whats in the body and that it was granular, inconsistent. I guess she meant that it comes from bovines, cows, that the concentration can vary between batches or something. I don't need T3 at this time anyway so it doesn't matter.

Does anyone on here have experience with the "Levoxyl" brand in particular? I read today that some people have a better experience with this brand than others or generics.

Wow,thats a lot to write. To those that read all of it, thank you.

Good to hear you found a doctor you like, and one that did more thorough testing. However if you start down the path of HRT it is a path of no return. You will continually atrophy your testes more and more as time goes on, if you are ever going to try an herbal alternative the time to do that is now. It's up to you what to do with your life, but you are only applying the end result hormones, the Dermacrine Sustain they are coming out with may be able to jump start your natural production. There is no garantee but know that by choosing HRT you choose to be on that stuff for the rest of your life.

 

[MADBALL99]

So are people claiming results, as in shown in blood work, w/ dermacrine ?

 

[Primordial Performance]

So are people claiming results, as in shown in blood work, w/ dermacrine ?

So far only with saliva kits, but I know guys who have said they are going to test serum while using the product -- I have yet to hear anything back.

-Pp

 

[njmuscleguy]

Pp... I have a question... say someone decided to use dermacrine instead of going the HRT route. Let's say one is relatively young, diagnosed with primary hypogonadism and legitimately a candidate for testosterone replacement. How would you run Dermacrine (and I'm guessing Sustain) as a permanent, alternative "HRT"? I know Dermacrine has to be cycled, so in your "off-months", you run the risk of crashing (or just not feeling as good as when you're "on").

 

[Primordial Performance]

Pp... I have a question... say someone decided to use dermacrine instead of going the HRT route. Let's say one is relatively young, diagnosed with primary hypogonadism and legitimately a candidate for testosterone replacement. How would you run Dermacrine (and I'm guessing Sustain) as a permanent, alternative "HRT"? I know Dermacrine has to be cycled, so in your "off-months", you run the risk of crashing (or just not feeling as good as when you're "on").

If your considering HRT, Dermacrine would be the product to use. Sustain wouldn’t provide much benefit if your diagnosed with primary hypogonadism. (testes don’t function)

For all intents and purposes Dermacrine could be used for HRT. The standard dose of 4-5 pumps would provide similar benefit as doing 1 tube of androgel or testim everyday (test cream) or 100-150mg/wk test enanthate.

I think an ideal protocol would be to stack Dermacrine with a low dose of T… or cycle a few weeks on Dermacrine, and then a few weeks on T. You got a lot of options.

-Pp

 

[njmuscleguy]

It's good to have options.... so if stacking Derma with low-dose test, wouldn't that increase test level readings to higher than if just running test alone? That could lead to the doctor lowering the dosage on the test. So maybe it would be best to stop the derma a few weeks before getting re-evaluated (bloodwork)?

 

[Primordial Performance]

It's good to have options.... so if stacking Derma with low-dose test, wouldn't that increase test level readings to higher than if just running test alone? That could lead to the doctor lowering the dosage on the test. So maybe it would be best to stop the derma a few weeks before getting re-evaluated (bloodwork)?

Yes, you got it NJ.

Remember though, Dermacrine will be increasing androgens which will not be tested for on the blood test, such as androstendione and androstenediol. The benefits from Derma probably come more from these androgens than actual testosterone.

-Pp

 

[MADBALL99]

wait...I thought Dermacrine was supposed to be a test and LH booster ...What happened to that ?

 

[MADBALL99]

Well ?

 

[Primordial Performance]

wait...I thought Dermacrine was supposed to be a test and lh - leutenizing hormone - booster ...What happened to that ?

Dermacrine is a test booster mainly by conversion of the DHEA > T

If you’re looking for an LH stimulator then you would want to use the Derma Sustain, which will stimulate your body to make more of its own testosterone. (Does not contain the hormone DHEA)

-Pp

 

[MADBALL99]

What proof can you provide that this stuff actually does what it claims ? Any independent studies ???

 

[Primordial Performance]

What proof can you provide that this stuff actually does what it claims ? Any independent studies ???

Please see here -

http://www.primordialperformance.com/results.cfm

-Pp

 

[MrB123]

Please see here -

http://www.primordialperformance.com/results.cfm

-Pp

good stuff

 

[sdever]

it makes me break out in a rash

 

[digimon7068]

Also, whether she knows that an anti-e should be used to combat sides. I don't expect feeling or results like i would be on a cycle, but i don't want the bare minimum dosage either.

if your doc gives you enough to get your levels up to the normal or high-normal range, you probably won't get any "sides". . .

 

[MrB123]

it makes me break out in a rash

I think i heard something about that in a thread on here. I believe they changed up something and made it better for people with sensitive skin. might want to pm primordial and ask

 

[sdever]

did pm primordial they did nothing so i bought another batch and still get rash thats 4 bottles (3 first batch 1 second batch ) in the trash

 

[Primordial Performance]

did pm primordial they did nothing so i bought another batch and still get rash thats 4 bottles (3 first batch 1 second batch ) in the trash

Bro, Im sorry to hear about your reaction. When did you PM me? What batch have you had the reaction with?

-Pp

 

[sdever]

Bro, Im sorry to hear about your reaction. When did you PM me? What batch have you had the reaction with?

-Pp

Toll Free – 1-800-568-2924
Primordial Performance
1292 High Street
PMB# 228
Eugene, OR 97401

Direct – 1-541-255-2900
Fax – 1-541-255-3209

Your order has been received and will be shipped to you shortly! Your details are as follows. Order Date:
06-05-2008



Order ID
58BA991C


Bill To Ship To New Jersey 08080
USA




Comments
eric you said you would send me a bottle of the new batch of dermacrine since the last 3 bottles i bought had a citrus smell and made me break out in a rash ? please add it to this order thanks larry


Order Information
Product Qty. Price Total
EndoAmp - Instock (EndoAmp) 1 $47.99 $47.99
Dermacrine (7 fl. oz bottle) Instock (SKU_DERMACRINE) 1 $59.00 $59.00
Toco-8 - Instock (31 gm ( 1.1 oz)) 1 $29.00 $29.00
Code(SPONSOR10) Promotion: -10%
Subtotal: $122.39
Shipping (Free Priority - (US delivery in 2-4 days)): $0.00

Order Total: $122.39

 

[Primordial Performance]

Toll Free – 1-800-568-2924
Primordial Performance
1292 High Street
PMB# 228
Eugene, OR 97401

Direct – 1-541-255-2900
Fax – 1-541-255-3209

Your order has been received and will be shipped to you shortly! Your details are as follows. Order Date:
06-05-2008



Order ID
58BA991C


Bill To Ship To New Jersey 08080
USA




Comments
eric you said you would send me a bottle of the new batch of dermacrine since the last 3 bottles i bought had a citrus smell and made me break out in a rash ? please add it to this order thanks larry


Order Information
Product Qty. Price Total
EndoAmp - Instock (EndoAmp) 1 $47.99 $47.99
Dermacrine (7 fl. oz bottle) Instock (SKU_DERMACRINE) 1 $59.00 $59.00
Toco-8 - Instock (31 gm ( 1.1 oz)) 1 $29.00 $29.00
Code(SPONSOR10) Promotion: -10%
Subtotal: $122.39
Shipping (Free Priority - (US delivery in 2-4 days)): $0.00

Order Total: $122.39

So, were you asking for a free bottle? Did you not receive it? I generally don’t see the order details, it’s in a totally different department.

Please PM me and let me know what’s going on. Thank you.

-Eric