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A Must-Read for anyone on EF....

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The Shadow

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Too Old Soon, Too Late Smart

Dr. Gordon Livingston


"In general, we get not what we DESERVE, but what we EXPECT."

"Some ignorance is invincible"

"We are a verbal species, much given to the use of words to explain AND deceive. The worst deceptions, of course, are those we practice on ourselves."

"Any relationship is under the control of the person who cares the LEAST."



....there are some tru gems in this book. The above quotes are all interlaced within the first 20 or so pages.


Pick it up
 
That last one is priceless.
 
The Shadow said:
"In general, we get not what we DESERVE, but what we EXPECT."

It's like self-esteem - have no self esteem, expect to be treated poorly and you will be. Think highly of yourself - others will too - they will be dazzled by your display of confidence. Or like the depressive that must make sure they are unhappy so they can stay in their comfort of depression.

The Shadow said:
"Some ignorance is invincible"
So he's a Catholic...

The Shadow said:
"We are a verbal species, much given to the use of words to explain AND deceive. The worst deceptions, of course, are those we practice on ourselves."

Lie to ourselves because the concept of facing our own reality and taking responsibly for our failures is a foriegn idea - best to leave a large gray area to make the truth up as we go along.

Lewis Carroll expressed it best in Alice in Wondeland

The table was a large one, but the three were all crowded together at one corner of it: `No room! No room!' they cried out when they saw Alice coming. `There's PLENTY of room!' said Alice indignantly, and she sat down in a large arm-chair at one end of the table.

`Have some wine,' the March Hare said in an encouraging tone.

Alice looked all round the table, but there was nothing on it but tea. `I don't see any wine,' she remarked.

`There isn't any,' said the March Hare.

`Then it wasn't very civil of you to offer it,' said Alice angrily.

`It wasn't very civil of you to sit down without being invited,' said the March Hare.

`I didn't know it was YOUR table,' said Alice; `it's laid for a great many more than three.'

`Your hair wants cutting,' said the Hatter. He had been looking at Alice for some time with great curiosity, and this was his first speech.

`You should learn not to make personal remarks,' Alice said with some severity; `it's very rude.'

The Hatter opened his eyes very wide on hearing this; but all he SAID was, `Why is a raven like a writing-desk?'

`Come, we shall have some fun now!' thought Alice. `I'm glad they've begun asking riddles.--I believe I can guess that,' she added aloud.

`Do you mean that you think you can find out the answer to it?' said the March Hare.

`Exactly so,' said Alice.

`Then you should say what you mean,' the March Hare went on.

`I do,' Alice hastily replied; `at least--at least I mean what I say--that's the same thing, you know.'

`Not the same thing a bit!' said the Hatter. `You might just as well say that "I see what I eat" is the same thing as "I eat what I see"!'


`You might just as well say,' added the March Hare, `that "I like what I get" is the same thing as "I get what I like"!'

`You might just as well say,' added the Dormouse, who seemed to be talking in his sleep, `that "I breathe when I sleep" is the same thing as "I sleep when I breathe"!'

`It IS the same thing with you,' said the Hatter, and here the conversation dropped, and the party sat silent for a minute, while Alice thought over all she could remember about ravens and writing-desks, which wasn't much.



The Shadow said:
"Any relationship is under the control of the person who cares the LEAST."
Basic business negotiations - if you are fully equiped to walk away from "the deal" you have greater strength to create the deal you desire.

Not the most original of books - but it sounds like it will do well.

Where's Dr. Phil????
:coffee:
 
velvett said:
Not the most original of books - but it sounds like it will do well.


So you haven't read the book then??

If not, there are a couple of chapters that might be of interest.
 
thanks for the post

but sometimes I wonder if humans especially in this society are much to self absorbed in themselves.........

that creates a type of psychosis
 
velvett said:
I was just commenting on the author's quotes.

...so the comment about the unoriginality was based on the 4 quotes from the book as a whole??


Gotcha
 
The Shadow said:
...so the comment about the unoriginality was based on the 4 quotes from the book as a whole??


Gotcha

God you're such a dick sometimes.

It was based on the reviews right here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1569244197/104-3396153-3002355?v=glance&n=283155

Specifically this one:

Eugene A Jewett "Eugene A Jewett" (Alexandria, Va. United States) - See all my reviews

Gordon Livingston, a psychiatrist by way of West Point and Johns Hopkins, presents us with interesting combinations of truth telling. He gets immediate "street cred" due to his Bronze Star for valor in Viet Nam, and this after averring that he went to war to "find out if I was brave." Additionally, he plumbed the depths of his emotions after losing two sons, thirteen months apart, one to lukemia (at 6) and the other to suicide via his son's manic-depression.

Livingston's advice as promulgated in the subtitle, "30 true things you need to know now", is delivered with the softly directed assurance of a loving parent, one who has counseled and re-parented hundreds of adults. IMO, he's too the point and for the most part accurate. I'll spell out my disagreements in a moment, but In the meantime I'll describe each chapter in a layman's terms,... mine.

Chap 1 says that "if the map doesn't agree with the terrain, the map is wrong" - We all strive to keep our worldview's consistent even when they're contradicted by an inconvenient reality (which begs the value of education?) If people blinker themselves when they should be listening, they've closed their minds to critical analysis and aren't looking at all the facets of the problem in order to arrive at the best solution (witness what passes for today's political discourse?)

Chap 2 - "We are what we do" - Here he distills patterns of behavior which IMO are the best way to predict someone's future behavior, man or woman. He discusses self deception (the result of the "blinkering process") and the fear of risking feelings in personal relationships (one could call this a fear of intimacy, no?) If crisis in life is seeing yourself differently at any age, then fear of confronting your rejections is nothing so much as the fear of agonizing self re-appraisals. Ipso, we engage in denial to avoid having to face reality on even ground.

Chap 3 - "It's difficult to remove by logic an idea not placed there by logic in the first place" - He explains why arguing over political or religious dogma is fruitless as the blinders are surely on if the foundation of the facts underpinning the assumptions are fallacious (it's a testament to his own ability at mind compartmentalization when he argues (later in this book) in favor of the global warming thesis, of the anti-war thesis, of not spanking unruly children, and for "social justice" (all concepts favored by left-wing conventional wisdom, but not by the silent majority.) He gets into the difficulty people have in changing their own ingrained worldviews which speaks to the illogical nature so evident in their contradictory habits and patterns (not only found in the SUV driving enviro, but in all of us.) In that we're all living in a "google-it" world, our self denial of possible factual refutation displays our possible willful ignorance as outlined in this book.

Chap 4 - He talks about "a figurative statute of limitations on our childhood traumas" - the ones that so many use to explain away their bad behavior. He speaks of change being "the essence of life" and in that regard invokes the process of re-parenting. The latter he must often engage in with his patients in order to gain the optimal outcomes of his behavioral therapy.

Chap - 5 "Any relationship (r/shp) is controlled by the one who loves least" - this is a mouthful. He talks about most of his patients having power struggles as a cause of their marital dissension, and of romance being a form of shared delusion. He posits the canard that "it takes two to start an r/shp, but only one to end it." Heavy!!! but doesn't it have that ring of truth?

Chap 6 - that "feelings follow behavior" - Here he asserts that while you can't control what you feel or think, you can alter your behavior to gain better control over your life (I might add that it helps to be internally truthful before you can begin this difficult journey.)

Chap 7 - "Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid" - He discusses his Vietnam experiences and his turn to the anti-war mentality (I'd suggest he read "Vietnam: the necessary war" by Lind, for background, and also David Horowitz's fine piece on "why we're in Iraq.)" I would have preferred that the author discuss what starts wars and why we engage in them, the why, the when, and the where, and the how????

Chap 8 - "The perfect is the enemy of the good" - He discusses the need to learn critical thinking skills and delves into what all economists (but, seemingly few others) know as a critical component of good reasoning: ...that there are few solutions to life's problems, only trade-offs.

Chap 9 - "Knowing when to ask `why' and conversely `why not" - He comments on the unexamined life being not worth living, particularly with regard to ones risks of emotional trauma (the only thing that changes behavior) and in ones wagers of the heart (fear of rejection is real because the crushing of ones assumptions can reveal the falsity of ones expectations which can lead to "crisis in life", which can in turn lead to a "point the gun up" scenario)". He suggests that therapeutic Reparenting by a shrink can lead to a reconstruction of a new and more accurate set of assumptions for the patient, ...at least that's the goal.

Chap 10 - "Our greatest strengths are our greatest weaknesses" - This can be explained thru the idea that the greatest risk is to take no risk,..and, he goes on..... He says life is all about the "good news/bad news story", and that all happiness is found thru denial and/or acceptance. He speaks of people getting defensive when their belief system is challenged (he will certainly make you think.)

Chap 11 - "The most secure prisons are the ones we construct for ourselves" - He talks of promises vs actions, and of having a closed mind vs having a willingness to entertain change ("who moved my cheese" by Johnson is good on this subject.)

Chap 12 - "The problems of the elderly are serious, but uninteresting" - In this touching chapter he writes of a societal devaluing process that is experienced by the elderly, and their often attendant panic of fear and aging (witness "nip and tuck.") He speaks movingly about the gradual return to infancy that we will all experience should we grow so old.

Chap 13 - "Happiness is the ultimate risk" - He writes how depression is safe due to the fear and the resistance that most of us have to change (Tony Robbins has made a living preaching on this topic.) He also gets into the genetic components of schizophrenic and bi-polar behavior (and, he's right on the money.)

Chap 14 - "Love is the apple of Eden" - He says that life is a painful struggle that ends badly; and, that life is "but a flicker of curiousness between the two great silences"; and, that suicide is a preoccupation with the self. Whoa!!!

Chap 15 - "Only bad things happen quickly" - This is about instant gratification vs delayed gratification (in an archeological sense isn't restraint what separates us from the apes?) and, about addictions vs persistent change.

Chap 16 - "Not all who wander are lost" - This is about finding your own path, and the willingness to change, or put another way, about ones tenacious dedication to a line of argument vs a desire to change.

Chap 17 - "Unrequitted love is painful, but not romantic" - This is about self delusion, and how the real power of love is in the sharing; ...it's about the power struggles in relationships which have spawned the mythical singles organization "sex without partners."

Chap 18 - "Doing the same things and expecting different results - This is the definition of a fanatic when he can't bring himself to try something different, when whatever he's doing continues not to work; and, that all human action emanates from a reflection of how we see ourselves.

Chap 19 - "We flee from truth in vain" - He talks of his own adoption and of how parents flee the truth.

Chap 20 - "Don't lie to yourself - He discusses denial, and hypocrisy vs authenticity; ... who we are vs what we promise; ...of excuses vs reappraisals,...of self; and of the cognitive dissonance of dreams vs truth.

Chap 21 - "The myth of the perfect stranger" - He addresses ideal love vs middle age fears, ...and, fantasy vs love as an unspoken contract for services.

Chap 22 - "Love is never lost, not even in death" - He discusses his deceased sons and allows that the concept of "closure" is junk psychiatry; ...that life has meaning, and that love can still be found in memory and devotion.

Chap 23 - "Nobody likes to be told what to do" - It's about admonishments and instructions; ...of genes vs hectoring; and, the sense of not being heard amid the power struggles of r/shps.

Chap 24 - "Illness can provide relief from responsibility" - It's about how people come to define themselves by their illnesses; and how behavior reinforced will usually continue.

Chap 25 - "We're afraid of the wrong things" - About how fear is not useful in producing lasting change (one might consult this treatise in "the black book of communism").

Chap 26 - "Parents have a limited ability to shape their children's behavior, except for the worse" - He compares permissive vs conservative child rearing techniques, and our attempts to teach happiness in the face of "life" (one should read "born that way" by William Wright to gain an insight into the results of the Minnesota twin studies.)

Chap 27 - "Our only paradises are ones we've lost" - It's about how we tend to idealize our past (perhaps to ease our gloom of the future? - I think a diary helps here.) He also talks of religion as a concept of immortality and reunion, and how our ability to contemplate death separates us from animals; ...in addition to our ability to laugh.

Chap 28 - "As to courage, the ability to laugh is the most therapeutic" - He writes of gallows humor as "healthy denial" (yet we don't give up i.e. things may be grave, but they needn't be serious."

Chap 29 - "Mental health requires freedom of choice" - Mental illness means constraint; ...that though we may be resticted as to self we have choices i.e. we're.... not....dead....yet!

Chap 30 - "Forgiveness is a form of letting go, but it's not the same" - To forgive implies an ability to change; ...that forgiveness is the end point of grieving, ...an act of will; ...that blaming means we have to look at ourselves; ...that we are what we've done; and, that we desperately need a consistent worldview (so we don't have to see ourselves differently); and, how our conscious determination can be an antidote.


Good Luck with your book.
I'll be sure avoid your threads in the future.
:rolleyes:
 
The problem with people is we over anylyze every little thing in our life. Someone says hello and we try to figure out what they really meant, instead of taking it for what it was.

I just prefer a simple life where people say what they mean instead of having to try to figure out what this or that means. Life is complicated enough without us making it more so.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Shadow
"Some ignorance is invincible"

velvett said:
So he's a Catholic...


What would you think if I told you I was a Catholic...?
 
velvett said:
God you're such a dick sometimes.

It was based on the reviews right here:



Good Luck with your book.

:rolleyes:



You know......I asked a simple question based on your post.


Did you read the book??


You said "no"

Knowing that you hadnt read it....

I asked for a clarification on your comments - ie - are you basing the comments on JUST what I posted, or on the book as a WHOLE, knowing that if they WERE on the book as a whole, then you caught a synopsis somewhere.

I was then going to ask where you saw it so I could forward the URL to a family member as I can't find the book here in town,(and never thought to look for a summary to SEE if she was interested in reading it - I just thought it would be helpfull) as she is home-bound.


..and you call me a dick.



Get the fuck over yourself.
 
Dial_tone said:
That last one is priceless.

Ditto because it' true. That's not telling me anything I didn't already know.
 
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