A diet's a diet's a diet, RIGHT???

[SteelWeaver]

I would like to hear opinions on the pros and cons on various macro ratios for cutting diets. We all know that any diet that creates a caloric deficit will work, so long as you stick to it, but what about how you FEEL on the diet, and the ratio of muscle lost to fat.

Here's what I think ... (please note I am FAR from an expert, and much of what's here is what I've picked up on these boards)

(Please assume high-carb refeeds for all but straight keto, and also assume very regular meal frequency, like the typical 5-6 meals a day - but of course, feel free to give any experiences or opinions you've had on any type of diet )

Straight Keto:
pros: supposed to lose fat much quicker, with minimal muscle loss because of ketones, loss of appetite
cons: you feel like absolute crap, no energy, no strength, hormone levels get messed up, you may not have an appetite, but that's because you feel nauseous all the time, not super effective for oestrogenic fat, and what about the health effects of all the saturated fat? difficult to stick to (don't know - haven't actually done keto yet)

CKD:
pros: same as keto, but you have much more energy because of the carb-ups, hormone levels don't get as badly affected as keto (???), easier to stick to
cons: you still have to go the whole week without any carbs, lose energy, strength, carb-cravings are worse because you allow yourself some sometimes (?), saturated fat health effects.

33/33/33:
pros: easy to stick to, lots of energy from carbs, very decent fat loss because carbs are very moderate, muscle loss minimal because of extra carbs
cons: ????? are there any?

40/40/20:
pros: better for general health and women because of the relatively lower fat (????), higher carbs= higher energy levels=more intensity in gym=greater fat loss/less muscle loss (???)
cons: harder to stick to because not enough fat to control appetite (???)

50/30/20:
pros:basically the same as 40/40/20, but maybe fewer carbs= faster fat loss?
cons: same as 40/40/20

high carb:
pros: you get to eat a lot of carbs, lol! lots of energy, this diet is also cheaper than higher pro diets
cons: appetite control difficult, fat loss is not so quick because of too many carbs

very low fat:
similar to high carb, but also hormone problems from not ENOUGH fat.


So - please have at it - I'd love to hear everyone's opinions on these. Obviously there's a bunch of stuff I'm not exactly clear on, but that's why I'm posting this thread.

 

[Manu]

Great Post SteelWeaver

 

[plornive]

Good post.

I like to choose diets based on energy levels in the gym. More energy means more intense workouts, more fat burning and perhaps more muscle retention.

The idea that you can control where energy is retreived in your body based on macronutrients is not supported by much. I think working out intensely improves insulin sensitivity so much that it has much more of a "nutrient partitioning" effect than any particular macronutrient ratio. If one does not workout, then it may make sense to limit carbs due to a decrease in insulin sensitivity.

Then there is leptin and metabolism. These may have more of a "nutrient partitioning" effect than anything else during a calorie restricted diet (not on a bulking diet).

I think the above supports some kind of balanced diet with the occasional refeed for most people. Isocaloric seems good. Any balanced diet should do.

For extremely fast fat-loss, I think a diet mainly consisting of protein is pretty effective.

I don't understand why it is said that keto diets lead to faster fat-loss. Keto diets causes a greater decrease of metabolism, so why would that be?

 

[Lumbuss]

a diet isn't good unless you are getting the right number of cals. who gives a shit about the numbers when cutting. get 1g protien per lb of bodyweight, about 20% efas, then the rest can come from carbs or whatever. ckds do suck ass though, they drop your leptin. let the fat asses do ckd's because they like butter and bacon all day. if dr atkins wasn't dead he would be coming out with low carb doughnuts and saying to eat them.

 

[plornive]

 

[Lumbuss]

dont roll your eyes at me. tell me what was wrong with my post and why you wont get as good of results from what i said as any other diet out there. i will debate you all day and you will lose.

 

[MS]

Interesting post. It kinda sums up all the diet questions asked on this board in one go!

I don't know the answer (there is no ONE answer), but I would like to point out that keto diets do not have to have lots of sat fats in them. It is perfectly acceptable (even a good idea) to eat lean proteins and supplement with mono and polyunsaturated oils or oily fish instead. Also, diets high in sat fats are not necessarily bad for you if your carb intake is nil........

I have personally dieted several times on 40:50:10 and didn't have probs with overall appetite compared to other diets I've tried. And I wouldn't say that my fatoss was any slower than other diets. But everyone is different! Bottom line like Lumbuss said is eat less than you burn somehow. Just be sure to get plenty of protein.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Forgot to mention:

Assume that no AAS are being used.

Also, about keto: seems it's more often recommended for obese people.

MS: yeah, I know that healthy fats can make up the fat content of keto, but how many people, really really, are likely to choose egg whites and flaxseed oil if they can have bacon and cheese?

Glad to hear about your exp. with higher carbs. I know I was hungrier on higher than lower carbs, but the low carbs just made me feel like total shit.

And good point about insulin sensitivity plornive.

What kind of stasis or maintenance are we really hoping to achieve on a fat-loss, muscle-loss minimising diet? We want to maintain insulin sensitivity, keep leptin levels up, keep cortisol down (?), keep other anabolic hormones up .... uuuhh?? I don't really know the biochem here, but there must be a list of items we want to maintain or improve if possible, whilst losing fat. Surely the diet that addressess all the items on the list is the one that would be most effective, barring individual genetic/hormonal/pathological/psycological etc. differences?

Everyone's fond of saying "everyone's different", but we all work on basically the same biochemistry, right? Why are there so many different diets?

And what happens when you start manipulating the extremes, like in blood's old "theoretical" post, where MS talks about gaining on one huge meal a day?

What about some other ideas that have been floated on this board, like cutting for 2 weeks, then bulking for 2 weeks, to gain without fat?

OK, I know I'm going off topic here, but just want to open up the field to people's experiences and questions you may have been asking yourselves.

 

[SteelWeaver]

OK, well that's what I'm looking for - opinions and experiences - so you had lots of energy on keto. But keto is with lots of fat, not just protein ...

How was your lifting? Strength?

Oh, I'm definitely not talking about macs! Any BB'er who eats carbs knows they should be eating low GI carbs except maybe post-workout, and those don't give you an insulin spike unless you eat a TON of them in one sitting.

I guess what I'm really trying to do with this thread is get a summary of the various diets out there, explore what else might be possible, and get together a kind of "list" of the things we want to look out for to avoid or maintain when on diet - like I said a few posts up: what hormonal changes, energy changes, pyschological changes etc do we want to avoid, increase, decrease, or maintain when on diet.

I'm sure that Par Deus, when he sat down to make LeptiGen, created a kind of "master-list" like what I'm talking about. He looked at all the changes that go on in the body when dieting, analysed why they happen, then set out to make something that would counteract or minimise those changes, right?

So what's on the master-list, and what diet fulfils most of the criteria on that master list?

 

[plornive]

a diet isn't good unless you are getting the right number of cals. who gives a shit about the numbers when cutting. get 1g protien per lb of bodyweight, about 20% efas, then the rest can come from carbs or whatever. ckds do suck ass though, they drop your leptin. let the fat asses do ckd's because they like butter and bacon all day. if dr atkins wasn't dead he would be coming out with low carb doughnuts and saying to eat them.

Yes, obviously your guidlines work. Most diets work. Read my original reply to this thread.

dont roll your eyes at me. tell me what was wrong with my post and why you wont get as good of results from what i said as any other diet out there.

Don't tell me how to make my points. You criticized keto diets without stating why. Perhaps I should have stated this.

i will debate you all day and you will lose.

Get a grip.

 

[Lumbuss]

I will start off by saying keto diets are only good for fat asses and you will lose muscle if you are lean. Do you disagree?

 

[plornive]

I will start off by saying keto diets are only good for fat asses and you will lose muscle if you are lean. Do you disagree?

Yeah, I pretty much agree. I don't see any advantage to going into ketosis, and I would rather get high-intensity energy from carbs than just plain calories from fat.

I think my original eye-rolling was a spur of the moment response --- you and I don't have much to debate about on this issue.

 

[plornive]

Although if someone decides to go on a very-low-calorie crash diet anyway, going into ketosis might actually help to preserve muscle. In that case, very little fat would be consumed. Lots of muscle would be lost, though.

That's not a good idea anyway.

 

[Lumbuss]

yeah, that would be stupid to drop calories real low because they would lose a ton of muscle. hopefully leptigen will make this possible to do w/o the loss if it works.

 

[MS]

IMHO all diets are hard to stick to long term if they are below maintenance calories. Do not be fooled that one diet is better than another in this regard. The only things I know that can ease the pain of dieting (but not eliminate it) are regular refeeds or supplements/drugs. Leptigen fits into the second category....it is not a diet, it is a dieting aid. On all calorie reduced diets you will eventually (if you get lean enough) lose muscle, even with plenty of protein intake. Keto is not special in this regard, but I agree that if you're gonna do an extreme crash diet then keto is prolly better for minimizing muscle loss.

Diets fail because of lack of will power from the dieter. Drugs that reduce the amount of willpower needed will be effective. You really shouldn't dismiss a keto diet until you've tried it, but I would save that experiment until after your competition.......

 

[SteelWeaver]

Diets fail because of lack of will power from the dieter. Drugs that reduce the amount of willpower needed will be effective. You really shouldn't dismiss a keto diet until you've tried it, but I would save that experiment until after your competition.......

Diets also fail because of lack of KNOWLEDGE. You can have all the will power in the world, but if you're stalled and you don't know why, nothing's gonna help you until you figure it out and make the necessary changes.

Did you mean me, btw? I haven't dismissed keto completely. But even 60g carbs a day pretty much tasted like shit as a veggie, lol! And felt even worse. Not that taste or whatever is much of an issue when dieting, but a tiny bit of variety helps.

Almost certainly (judging by the current rebound) I'll need that keto about a month after the next comp, bwaa ha haa.

Going back to the master list, here's something that should be on that list: the fact that doing a keto directly pre-comp can ruin the carb-up (if that's the way you're going to do it) because of the lower levels of glycase (was it glycase, MS?).

I think we should make a "Did you know ...?" sticky for this diet board that people can add their knowledge or experience to, like, for example, the above fact. Or what about rebound from any diet?

Or, if you've lost tons of energy, you're tired, your temperature has dropped, you're craving badly, this means: refeed.

Maybe a sticky like that would get out of control, though.

Lumbuss and plornive, do you have anything to add to the master list?

 

[plornive]

Creatine, pre-workout and during workout carb+whey drinks help me a lot. I am cutting and experimenting with glycerine, creatine, arginine, whey, glycerine and a lot of water pre-workout. I also have 1/2 of a sweet potato before most workouts. This helps me to continue to get good pumps and strength in my workouts.

Basically, anything to hydrate and volumize the muscles and pre/during workout carbs to get through workouts helps big time in maintining strength, IMO.

EC is so very useful, but can cause repetetive crashes if used too long.

Taking breaks from cutting is a good idea if the duration of cutting is long overall. A week or two of maintenance or slightly above with less cardio.

That's all I can think of right now.

 

[makedah]

Good questions, SteelWeaver. I hope you get a lot of good responses.


How do you eat only 60 gms carbs a day as a vegetarian. DO tell?

 

[Punschkrapfen]

On Keto i had TONS AND TONS of energy. Now that i'm off, i'm back to my normal lazy self. I don't know where you're getting your info from. Eating water and pure protein gives me more energy than eating big macs and carbs all day which makes my insulin pop up and down like a freakin' yo-yo. Those "sugar-rushes".

couldn't agree more. I have wasted years with high-carb diets, because everybody was saying if you want a good workout you have to consume carbs to fuel intensive training. Shit. I got tired very quick, didn't make much progress and got fat. I even went on to add liquid carbs during the workout which gave me some boost, but also made me fatter. Then i frequently did cutting high-carb diets and lost all the muscle and was tired all day.
Over the past 2 years i gradually switched to high-protein and elimiated most carbs step-by-step. I do workout in the morning and for breakfast i consume a protein drink and after workout i get another protein shake and/or some cottage cheese, meat or other protein sources. Its incredible - strengh and endurance are way up, intensive workouts, not tired the rest of the day, i sleep 1-2 hours less then 2 years go and i am constantly growing and getting stronger.
I am currently on a CKD, ketostix say i am in deep ketosis, but i have no drop in strength or endurance. On the opposite, i even feel somewhat more energetic. Of course, muscles look flatter, therefore i do 1-2 refeed days, but i don't have more energy on the refeed day or after.

Problem for people like me is that carbs induce an insulin spike that quickly clear the sugar from the bloodstream and converts it to triglycerides which are shuttled into fat cells and are not used for energy. Some other people's blood sugar stays elevated higher and longer because of lower insulin excretion after the ingestion of carbs, and they can therefore use these carbs better for energy. Therefore we have to make a difference between several types of people. The latter group probably will do fine on high(er)-carb diets, while the overly carb-sensitive group has to keep carbs down as much as possible.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Good questions, SteelWeaver. I hope you get a lot of good responses.


How do you eat only 60 gms carbs a day as a vegetarian. DO tell?

I hope so too.

I'm ovo-lacto veg, so lets just say a lot of chickens were working overtime for my diet.

And when the egg whites just made me feel too sick, a soy/casein protein powder blend.

 

[SteelWeaver]

Oh dear. This is what I feared. It's gonna all come down to how each one of us reacts to carbs/keto, etc.

Never mind, just keep posting, and we're all sure to learn something.

 

[hardasnails73]

here is what I discovered. Body needs constant change. right now I'm on a 300 calorie about maintence level (3300) at ratio of 55% p 15% fat and 30% carbs with 3 days high intenstity cardio 6 meals non trainnng day 7 meals training days. Hit is done at night time do to chance of muscle mass loss on empty stomach in the morning. afte 4 weeks I cut out post work out meal and add another session of cardio in and add in some BCAAS during my work out to protect lean muscle mass from caloire deficit. do this for 2 weeks then I will go back to gaining phase for a nother 2 weeks but iincreae caloires 500 above mainatence and repeat process for 2 more weeks then go back to cutting for one. this goes fro 70 days and see what. this seems to keep me at a lower percent body fat and gain lean muscle mass. Goal is 7-8 lbs over 70 days solid ! while building stregnth with a power lifting routine.

when i get ready for my show starting 12 weeks out I switch to a 50 /30f 20 c ratio at mainece and cardio 3 days a week HIT with a refeed on m, th but not all day just one meal before bed time Comprisioing of 1.5 cup oatmeal dry 10 oz yam 1 cup veggies and 1 tablespoon flax. every 2 weeks I drop caloires and may be add another seesion of cardio in but refeed stays the same.
8 weeks out all protein shakes get cut out and diary products.cardio is a 4 days a week HIT but moved to morining with 10 grams BCAAS taken before to prevenet break down caloires goto 2700-2800

week 6 caloires stay same and add another session of cardio but it will be 2 sesions hit to 3 sessioin of moderate intensity in the morning with BCAAS before and after.

week 4 calories are now at 2500-2600 caloires with refeeds !!
REfeeds you will be counting down for at this point. may be add another session of cardio at 30 minutes moderate.

I will ride this in to show and see where adjustments will be made.

I eat alot of strawlberries and pinneapple during regular days.
carbs at thi point are around 75 complex and about 50 =70 fiberous

personaly I found that between 400-450 is my threshhold of caloires where it will not make me bloated at all. every 3 hours because it take me a good 20 minutes to eat my food. when dieintgn think about it 8 oz flank steak, yam, 1 cup strawlberries or a stinking protein shake? Tough choice !!

During dieting I would suggest alot of BCAAS before and after cardio and before during and after weight training.

4 weeks out glutemine gets cuts becuase it can make you smooth looking and off set your insulin levels. Philophy of what I use is keeping insulin levels as stable as possible and spiking them only last meal on refeeds With ( 1000 mgs ALA) wake up looking like a new person. if you want to do HIt cardio after refeeds be perefect time, but I like to later at night on my days off !!

 

[drveejay11]

bump

 

[SteelWeaver]

Hardasnails: I would have thought it would make more sense to spike insulin levels on the FIRST meal of your refeed, since that's when your muscles will be most primed to suck up as much glycogen as possible.

Also, how does glutamine spike insulin any more than normal protein on a low-mod carb diet?

Some summary points otherwise: refeeds + ALA = great!

BCAA's and glutamine very important when dieting - pre and post cardio and weight training.

 

[Arioch]

Steel, once again you are going to get a "depends on the individual" sort of response.

For example, I cannot do a straight keto for a variety of reasons, including injuries. TKD gives me incredible cravings. High carbs make me sluggish.

CKD's work great for me. No trouble maintaining strength. By day 3 of 0 carbs, my endurance is terrible, but then I am not an endurance athlete, so this is not a big deal.

My wife does quite well on a diet of about 50% protein, 30% carbs, and 20% fat, with the fat mostly coming from healthy sources. If she needs to cut to make weight, she will cut calories first from fats, then carbs if necessary.

 

[Lumbuss]

EC is so very useful, but can cause repetetive crashes if used too long.

Taking

How so? Ephedra is a non specific beta agonist.

 

[plornive]

How so? Ephedra is a non specific beta agonist.

I'm not exactly sure how. It seems to make me go hypoglycemic and get kind of sleepy (crash) if I have been taking it too long. My workouts go down the tubes while I am still dependent.