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5x5 - Needsize vs. Madcow routines
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Guinness5.0
New member
How long have you been lifting? There are two distinct "madcow" 5x5's (I put his name in quotes b/c he didn't really come up with them- he's just done a great job of popularizing them).
The nice thing about any of the programs (needsize or "madcow's") is that they use some time-tested principles. They both rely on progressive resistance and improving in strength on specific exercises in a specific rep range over a given period of time rather than just blasting away at whatever random exercise you pick for that day.
I think the Madcow/Starr/Pendlay/et al 5x5's are a little better in the exercise selection and the more structured setup- you just plug your starting weights into the best exercises you could use and blast away
. Also, the typical "split" is ditched, which IMO is a very good thing.
In a nutshell, I feel that the Starr 5x5 and its variants are better for most b/c of the frequency (i.e. no more "train bodyparts 1x/week or you'll overtrain" bs) and the reliance on the core lifts.
The nice thing about any of the programs (needsize or "madcow's") is that they use some time-tested principles. They both rely on progressive resistance and improving in strength on specific exercises in a specific rep range over a given period of time rather than just blasting away at whatever random exercise you pick for that day.
I think the Madcow/Starr/Pendlay/et al 5x5's are a little better in the exercise selection and the more structured setup- you just plug your starting weights into the best exercises you could use and blast away
. Also, the typical "split" is ditched, which IMO is a very good thing. In a nutshell, I feel that the Starr 5x5 and its variants are better for most b/c of the frequency (i.e. no more "train bodyparts 1x/week or you'll overtrain" bs) and the reliance on the core lifts.
I've been lifting for about 5 years, only about 2 seriously. I got my diet in gear, finally, about 8 months ago, started HST and moved to a modifed MC2 5x5. Made incredible size and strength gains. Seriously, incredible gains.
I went from 165 to 180 in about 3 years of lifting, on a routine, but not using any principles that work (i.e. 1 bp/day/week), to gaining over 20 lbs in the past year, the majority of that, muscle (using HST and 5x5)
I agree, I love training bodyparts 2 (or 3) times a week, even at a low frequency. I think my body almost needs that to stay big and strong. That's why I loved HST. I spent some time on a 5x5/HST combo that served me very well.
I was just curious, b/c I like how Needsize's 5x5 allows for some other exercises besides the strict layout of MC2's program. I want to go on a strict 5x5 routine, and planned to do the MC2 routine, unless I heard opinions that the variation you could add (like Needsize's) is better.
I went from 165 to 180 in about 3 years of lifting, on a routine, but not using any principles that work (i.e. 1 bp/day/week), to gaining over 20 lbs in the past year, the majority of that, muscle (using HST and 5x5)
I agree, I love training bodyparts 2 (or 3) times a week, even at a low frequency. I think my body almost needs that to stay big and strong. That's why I loved HST. I spent some time on a 5x5/HST combo that served me very well.
I was just curious, b/c I like how Needsize's 5x5 allows for some other exercises besides the strict layout of MC2's program. I want to go on a strict 5x5 routine, and planned to do the MC2 routine, unless I heard opinions that the variation you could add (like Needsize's) is better.
Guinness5.0
New member
You might want to try Dual Factor Hypertrophy Training. It has maore exercise variety.
Basic_wonder
New member
Needsizes = 17 lbs in one semester of school
currently on Madcow(beginner) = 7 lbs in half a semester of school
they feel about the same to me. Until I finish Madcow and finally hit a wall will I be able to really tell the efficiency of it versus needsizes.
currently on Madcow(beginner) = 7 lbs in half a semester of school
they feel about the same to me. Until I finish Madcow and finally hit a wall will I be able to really tell the efficiency of it versus needsizes.
In my 7th week of madcow now, AWESOME. The fucking program works!! I add a couple exercises here and there like 2 sets of BB curls on Fri., sets of close grip bench and some cleans. I have made great strength/size gains and still have over a week to go!! The workouts are SO easy compared to all the bullshit I was doing before. I will post a before and after post once I finish the 5x5. I gained more in 7 weeks then I would have in 9 months or more on my other routine.
This 5x5 training pretty much shattered every idea I had about training. Sets that don't go to failure, working full body in one day, working muscles multiple times a week, not doing much direct arm training or any high reps. Those were all things I thought were bad and I avoided doing. Its amazing how much we think we know about things and how clueless we really are sometimes. Like the line from the King and I, Men will fight to prove what they do not know is so!!
I have only done the madcow version 5x5. Its simple and it WORKS!! If someone told me that they were secretly adding steroids to my shake, I would believe it. I am doinig 3-4 reps of weight I could barely lift for one when I started, and this is after 2 years of training. All this and quicker easier workouts, can't go wrong!!
This 5x5 training pretty much shattered every idea I had about training. Sets that don't go to failure, working full body in one day, working muscles multiple times a week, not doing much direct arm training or any high reps. Those were all things I thought were bad and I avoided doing. Its amazing how much we think we know about things and how clueless we really are sometimes. Like the line from the King and I, Men will fight to prove what they do not know is so!!
I have only done the madcow version 5x5. Its simple and it WORKS!! If someone told me that they were secretly adding steroids to my shake, I would believe it. I am doinig 3-4 reps of weight I could barely lift for one when I started, and this is after 2 years of training. All this and quicker easier workouts, can't go wrong!!
Extra_Strong
Well-known member
NO one gave links to compare ..??
I have seen and experienced awesome results with my version over the years, and have tweaked it here and there, but that being said, the other one is more time tested, and backed up by scientific principals, so I would give his the edge. Trying both never hurt anyone though
TheAssholeFomerlyKnownAsDBBT
New member
yea where are the links to compare these two methods? NE1?needsize said:
wayneboard1
New member
I would like to see needsizes version as I have run madcows version and really liked it. I am about to start another one of these and would like to see and possibly try needs if anyone has a link to it or can cut and paste it. Thanks!
wayneboard1
New member
Nevermind my previous post, I found needsizes version. Funny how well that search button works. 
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=281085
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=281085
wayneboard1
New member
Madcow2 said:Or the sticky at the top of the forum that lists all the major threads for programs
YEAH YEAH. lol
Quick question...... I really dont like tampering with programs that have been known to work well... but the only thing bothering me about this program is the frequency of the bodyparts trained per week. Do you think something like this would work:
Monday:
Chest and Back (both 5X5) with the accessory exercies.
Tuesday:
Shoulders, Bi's, Tris (same)
Wednesday:
Quads and Hammies (only 5X5 squat w/ others)
Thursday:
Off
Friday: Repeat
Would this work too or is it tooooo much?
Monday:
Chest and Back (both 5X5) with the accessory exercies.
Tuesday:
Shoulders, Bi's, Tris (same)
Wednesday:
Quads and Hammies (only 5X5 squat w/ others)
Thursday:
Off
Friday: Repeat
Would this work too or is it tooooo much?
anotherbutters
New member
Edit: couldn't read this cos the page is so wide - fix your sig DBBT!
You haven't tampered with the programs, you've completely ignored them and
posted a typical BB split that just happens to have 5 sets of 5 reps in it. I
haven't tried the needsize version, but speaking of the madcow one, don't you
think the program might work so well because of the frequency, not in
spite of it? This program contains good quality exercises and regulates volume,
intensity and frequency well and is well proven. Try it without modifying it.
You haven't tampered with the programs, you've completely ignored them and
posted a typical BB split that just happens to have 5 sets of 5 reps in it. I
haven't tried the needsize version, but speaking of the madcow one, don't you
think the program might work so well because of the frequency, not in
spite of it? This program contains good quality exercises and regulates volume,
intensity and frequency well and is well proven. Try it without modifying it.
Last edited:
wayneboard1
New member
anotherbutters said:
Good post.
JIMguy said:
[edit] this page is unbearably wide so I truncated the sentences to make for easier reading
BBing has a near retarded grasp of frequency that stems from a total misunderstanding of science.
Don't believe for a second there is any evidence that muscles recover after 7 days and that it is optimum to expose them to stimulus in that type of frequency on any kind of constant basis.
This is left over from the early 1990's when HIT started making the rounds into BBing courtesy of Mentzer returning to the scene and doing some writing for mags.
Unfortunately, Mentzer had a very very limited understanding (actually, I think he just took Jones' opinions from the 1970s and never bothered looking beyond them).
A lot of HIT proponents have adapted programs over time but his ideas are really outdated.
This started the whole "overtraining" craze because BBers would take a week off and come back bigger and stronger concluding that they hadn't been allowing enough time between workouts.
Too bad, they didn't realize that this is essentially a very repeatable instance and is in fact delayed compensation allowed by a period of reduced training load (dual factor theory).
It is not that the period before was too much to be stimulative - obviously it wasn't - they just had a very linear mindset and didn't understand how this stuff works.
Probably useful to read these on frequency. Bryan Haycock has some references at the HST site specifically on frequency if you want more science but this is pretty common knowledge:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpost.php?p=7338953&postcount=6
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5088699&postcount=784
Dual Factor Theory:
http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/PlannedOvertraining.html
http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/showpost.php?p=48&postcount=3
A lot more info on training theory and programming. Probably would do a world of good to spend some time reading:
http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow1/table_of_contents_thread.htm
Madcow2 said:
Exactly madcow..... I am familiar with dual factor having used the 5X5 you presented, in the past. Needsizes looks a bit interesting, expecially allowing me a little leeway adding in other exercises. The reason I asked the question I did is b/c I dont believe in training a muscle every 7 days or watever it is.. so I was wondering if his method would still work with a bit of a change in frequecy. What do you think? Thnks..........
The Starr 5x5 is not set in stone - in fact it's basically a single snap shot of a moment in time (let's say experienced lifter intro to periodization) of a much longer progression. You CAN and SHOULD alter it to fit your needs whether this be increased workload (or decreased or single factor), exercise substitution or assistance work. The reason it may have come off as set in stone is that too many BBers who don't know crap want to change everything, altering the exercises to cable butt flexes and maxing it into a 3 day split before they ever try it (i.e. they want it to look like their current crap program with all its flaws). Once you have a feel for it, realize why those exercises are specifically there, and understand the roles played by frequency and workload do what you need to do. This was more a problem when this program was newer on this and other boards than it is now after so many people have run it and can vouch for the results.
Essentially, the best program for you is the one tailored to you. I just needed a baseline and had to destroy a few hyper-popular myths that kept people from constructing decent programs. The 5x5 is meant to introduce good training and point the way for those interested in learning. It is not meant to be static.
Essentially, the best program for you is the one tailored to you. I just needed a baseline and had to destroy a few hyper-popular myths that kept people from constructing decent programs. The 5x5 is meant to introduce good training and point the way for those interested in learning. It is not meant to be static.
JL_204
New member
Madcow2 said:
I agree with this completely.
I have this book by Bill Pearl who is a old school BBer and he has a routine that he got from Bill Starr but put his own twist on it so it could be usefull to BBing. The only real difference is he has 4 weeks of 10 reps for more hypertrophy, 4 weeks of 5's, and 2 weeks of 3's.
I guess periodization is known by some in the pro BBing world.
wayneboard1
New member
Madcow2 said:
LOL You said "cable butt flex".
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