5x5 experts?

[JKurz1]

HOPE THE FORMAT ISNT ALL MESSED UP WITH THE COPY AND PASTE....Long story short, training a hs bball player using the 5x5 style......could an expert tell me if I've set up the first week ok? Mucho K.

Max Lifts (all 5x5 maxes)

deadlift: 165
squat: 90
bench press: 125
rows: 100
chins: BW
OH press: 75
Monday, Week 1 WEDNESDAY FRIDAY



SQUATS SQUATS(wed) SQUATS(fri)
60 0.65 60 60
70 0.75 70 70
75 0.8 75 75
80 0.85 75 75
85 0.95 75 85*3
75*8
BENCH OH PRESS BENCH
85 0.65 50 85
95 0.75 55 95
100 0.8 60 100
110 0.85 65 110
115 0.95 70 120*3
100*8
ROWS DEADS ROWS
65 0.65 110 65
75 0.75 125 75
80 0.8 140 80
85 0.85 150 85
90 0.95 160 95*3

HYPERS CHINS DIPS
-50x12 BW X10
-50x12 BW X10
-50x12 BW X10
BW
WTD ABS BW DBELL CRLS
-50x12 X10
-50x10 ABS X10
-50x10 X3 X10
X3
TRIS
X10
X8
X8

 

[Protobuilder]

A couple of things. First, you seem to have the exercises and M/W/F thing worked out well. You're following the plan w/out too much tinkering. LoL. But his week one weights are way too close to his 1RM's. I think even doing single-factor 5x5 you want to ramp up for a few weeks, especially if he's not trained / experienced w/ the compound lifts (and, judging from his relatively low lifts, I assume he's new to them). You probably want to set his 1RMs for week 3 or maybe 4 and then build up to them, and start for PRs in the weeks after that.

Next, on your pyramids, you've got the weights clustered way too close (e.g., Monday's squats are 60, 70, 75, 80, 85 . . .same for rows). Those little five-pound jumps means he's going to have relatively high intensity on all sets (percentage of 1RM). I think you want to space the pyramid out more, and make slightly larger jumps from set to set. It's kind of tough w/ his max being 90 b/c the bar alone is 45, LoL, but you can figure something out (e.g, bodyweight squats holding 25 poundplate or something for warmup).

The first few weeks will feel pretty easy, really, doing it this way. But you don't want to jump right in on the first week and work 85% 1RM.

So, here's an example of how his first week Monday's squats might look:

25 (holding 25 pound plate to chest, doing a sort of light front squat for warmup)
40
50
60
70 (again, this will be his heaviest set for the first week and it's pretty darn light but it's the first week and the goal is to set the stage for a string of PRs down the road).

This is just my opinion based on what I've read here. Good luck!

 

[BiggT]

Honestly, in my opinion, you guys are overcomplicating it. A beginner doesn't need to worry about all that thought out planning. All that garbage is for guys like me who need forsight and planning to make progress. A kid that young at those strength levels has nowhere to go but up, and he is going to make huge gains very fast. He'll be a different lifter from one week to the next, and those 1 rep maxes will mean absolutely nothing. Just think linearly, progress for this kid is going to come with ease.

I wouldn't try to get too scientific with pounds and percents.....he is unlikely to plateau anytime soon.....just make sure he makes all of his sets/reps with good form with a little bit in the tank and bump the weights up weekly, and he'll be fine. Bag the triples, and don't even think deloading is going to be necessary anytime soon, his 5's will move up in a linear fashion every week for God knows how long.

A trainee like that is a treat, he should progress nice and simply and linearly for a long time, just have fun and watch your creation explode, it'll be fun and simple. And remember, it's an art, not a science.

 

[JL_204]

You must spread some Karma around before giving it to BiggT again.

 

[JKurz1]

Good stuff fellas....well, today is his first day of training..........He's lifted for a few years, but had some surgies and finally is on the rebound. Here's what I got. Based on his maxes, does everything look good?

SQUATS
60
70
75
80
85
75*8
BENCH
85
95
100
110
115
100*8
ROWS
65
75
80
85
90

HYPERS WEIGHTED
50X12
50X12
50X12

ABS X3
TRIS X3

 

[BiggT]

It looks fine to me, he should make an insane amount of progress. Again, don't get too caught up in his maxes, this time tomorrow, they will no longer be his maxes. Don't let those numbers limit progress, throw them out the window and just let him progress from workout to workout, from week to week. Don't use science, just let him get his sets/reps in good form with a little gas left in his tank and he is going to do really well.

One suggestion, with his squat, I would add 5-10 pounds each SESSION, take his top-end set from today, add 5-10lbs Wed, take that top-end set and add 5-10lbs Fri. Do this until he stalls (which won't be anytime soon), then go to the more well-known approach of the heavy-light-medium system, but that 90lb squat is going to move with increases each session for a very, very long time.

 

[JKurz1]

couple of questions.....his concern is he wants to TRAIn...he's intense - got the balls, but I am concerned he'll think this is too light and doing nothing...........
How do I explain the benfit, he'll want to do more....

Diet - would u still take a dext/whey shake after this routine, even though he's really not even going to be training hard.....

Should his cals still be up?

 

[view]

couple of questions.....his concern is he wants to TRAIn...he's intense - got the balls, but I am concerned he'll think this is too light and doing nothing...........
How do I explain the benfit, he'll want to do more....

Diet - would u still take a dext/whey shake after this routine, even though he's really not even going to be training hard.....

Should his cals still be up?

you are not using the term intensity correctly for starters. intensity refers to % of your 1rm which will gradually increase as the program goes on. trust me, the fatigue will begin to accumlate and you will start think highly of the program very quickly.

after training, I would hit up 75 carbs and 50 grams of protein. the carbs can come in whatever form, rice, bagels, gatorade, and the protein from whey.

the calories should still be up if you actually want to gain some weight.

 

[BiggT]

Depending on his goals and body composition.......I think he should be eating an abundance of clean, wholesome foods, it will help him recover and keep his progress moving. If he is willing to do it, and buying it is no problem, a gallon of milk everyday is great to ensure non-stop progress for quite a while.....if he has the extra money, have him buy 2 or 3 lunches at school (the official, balanced lunch that is served, not the potato chip, cupcake, and ice cream line), bring in bars to snack on at school.....always stay full. If he does this right, todays squat of 85x5 is going to be about 145x5 on the Mon. January 16 workout..and by Valentine's Day he shoud be squatting over 200lbs......tell him that. Make him add 5lbs to each top end set of squats at EACH workout...if he complains of soreness, tell him to stop being a pussy (assuming, of course, he isn't injured, lol).

As far as the actual routine, just explain that this is TRAINING. Using weight you cannot handle and having your spotter lift it for you is known as being a stupid asshole. If he moves his 5 rep squat up 5lbs every workout, that's 15lbs a week, and 60lbs a month, and he should progress like this for a good few months, if not more. The way people buy into this is the progress.....you can't argue with strength and growth, and he will see plenty of both if he holds up his end of the deal. View made a good point too, explain weekly workload to him.

Once his weights improve he will see the beauty of this......and he will see his buddies who are probably pumping and blasting away not making any progress, and he will then buy into it.

 

[JKurz1]

Depending on his goals and body composition.......I think he should be eating an abundance of clean, wholesome foods, it will help him recover and keep his progress moving. If he is willing to do it, and buying it is no problem, a gallon of milk everyday is great to ensure non-stop progress for quite a while.....if he has the extra money, have him buy 2 or 3 lunches at school (the official, balanced lunch that is served, not the potato chip, cupcake, and ice cream line), bring in bars to snack on at school.....always stay full. If he does this right, todays squat of 85x5 is going to be about 145x5 on the Mon. January 16 workout..and by Valentine's Day he shoud be squatting over 200lbs......tell him that. Make him add 5lbs to each top end set of squats at EACH workout...if he complains of soreness, tell him to stop being a pussy (assuming, of course, he isn't injured, lol).

As far as the actual routine, just explain that this is TRAINING. Using weight you cannot handle and having your spotter lift it for you is known as being a stupid asshole. If he moves his 5 rep squat up 5lbs every workout, that's 15lbs a week, and 60lbs a month, and he should progress like this for a good few months, if not more. The way people buy into this is the progress.....you can't argue with strength and growth, and he will see plenty of both if he holds up his end of the deal. View made a good point too, explain weekly workload to him.

Once his weights improve he will see the beauty of this......and he will see his buddies who are probably pumping and blasting away not making any progress, and he will then buy into it.

Good stuff bro....like I said, he's all about training, playing football next year, packing on the mass, etc....His brother played ball for Mount Union and is decently size....he said he would join us as well.......My point on the carbs was that I usually jusdge my post intake on the workout....less for arms, more for legs, etc.....will he be sore from today? Doubt it....weights look too light, no? Just going through the motions for the first week.......Have you used this program? Did you keep a log?

 

[BiggT]

Good stuff bro....like I said, he's all about training, playing football next year, packing on the mass, etc....His brother played ball for Mount Union and is decently size....he said he would join us as well.......My point on the carbs was that I usually jusdge my post intake on the workout....less for arms, more for legs, etc.....will he be sore from today? Doubt it....weights look too light, no? Just going through the motions for the first week.......Have you used this program? Did you keep a log?

I've trained with this type of theory since I was in 8th grade, that was '92-'93. I've done a lot of things over the last 12-13 years, but the one thing constant is progressive resistance on big lifts. It's been a LONG time since I have been able to just progress linearly and as mind-numbingly simple as just adding weigh to the bar every workout. In a perfect world, that would never change, right? With a high school-aged kid at those strength levels, he can keep getting better with zero planning, just add weight, get all your sets/reps, eat, sleep, repeat.

He probably won't be overly sore, make sure he grasps the concept of workload over long periods of time. Training is simple, but it isn't easy, there is a lot of work and cmmittment, it is an investment of his time and efforts, and if he is willing to make that investment, he will reap big-time rewards.

Tell him to register. What position does he play in football? Would he like to play in college? But, seriously, have him join up.

Mount Union is stout. What did they win something like 8 D 3 national titles in 13 years?? And guys unfamiliar with Mt. Union, they're D 3, but they get D 1 caliber players, because they win, reload, and win again.

 

[JKurz1]

I played at Heidelbery College in Ohio, OAC - same conference as Mount, and they are all that.....my boy wants to play outside, but he needs some weight. He's even thinking about nixing baseball this year and focusing on diet and training.....do you have a layout of your routine, results or anything you could email me? Do you work? My #1 problem is my cardio in the am is too much, but I sit ALL DAY and feel like a slob if I dont do it.........I also need to quit eating so damn clean and jack the cals..here's what I got at 6'2, 185 and 8% bf:
6am
1 C Egg Whites 25 3 0.5 122
1 Whole Egg 6 1 5 75
3/4 cup dry Oatmeal or Oat Bram 9 43 5 220
1/2 cup skim and 1/2 scoop whey 17 1 2 75
57 48 12.5 492
9am
1 Scoops Complete Whey 22 3 3 125
1 scoop Muscle Milk 18 6 18 174
2 C Skim Milk 16 6 0 90
SHOULD I DO AN APPLE HERE, OATMEAL, OR FATS LIKE UDO,FLAX, ETC.
56 15 21 389
12pm
6 oz cooked beef or chx 43 0 5 230
5OZ YAM 1 25 3 130
Large SIZE SALAD VEGGIES 2 30 2 225
46 55 10 585
2:45 PM
6 oz chicken or tuna 43 0 5 230
1 cup brown rice cooked/Quinoa 5 45 2 215
veggies 2 25 1 175
50 70 8 620
TRAIN FROM 5:30-7:00

7:30 Shake
1 cup skim 8 3 0 45
1.5 scoops whey 37 3 4 185
oats orequivalent carb source 6 30 3 150
SPLENDA, with a few berries 0 15 0 150
51 51 7 530
9:30 RIGHT BEFORE BED
SHAKE
1 scoop muscle milk 18 6 18 174
1 cup egg whtes 25 3 0.5 122
celery, cottage cheese, veggies 10 20 1 125
53 29 19.5 421
262 217 71 2507
4 4 9
1048 868 639
42% 35% 25%

 

[Madcow2]

do you have a layout of your routine, results or anything you could email me?

Not to jump in as Biggt is telling you exactly what you need to hear but since we've talked before I'll just save him a long drawn out learning process that is kind of evidenced by you being the 8th most prolific poster in my big 5x5 Thread with 20+ posts yet not really having a handle on the program.

Programs at that point are not transferable. What works best for him might be glaringly inefficient and slow for you or more likely you will die from the workload. You don't train a novice like an intermediate or an intermediate like an elite lifter. A beginner lifter will make agonizingly slow progress using a program designed for an elite - it is not that the program sucks but merely that it is misapplied.

At your stage, you need to get stronger at big lifts in valid rep ranges (i.e. 5RM or 8 RM or 10 RM or whatever you want) and eat. This means working deliberately in a framework over a period of time. If you want to weigh 210, you have to eat enough calories to support you at a 210 bodyweight. You can micromanage it all you want to the nth degree but the bottom line is that you won't gain any muscle if you don't feed yourself and if you are maintainning 8% right now you are at a margin where the body is going to favor adding fat over muscle. In other words to make reasonable progress your body fat will certainly drift up a bit.

 

[BiggT]

Madcow basically said all I would say.

JKurz,
I want to help, but it really is not possible for me to summarize or post 14 years of training. And, like Madcow said, my current training is not the answer for you. The basic layout in Madcow's original 5x5 thread works for a very long period of time, when the time comes that it stops working, the ways around it are very individualized, and when you reach that point, you'll have the knoledge of your own body and how to train it and feed it to decide for yourself what you need to do.

The best advice I can give with diet, is eat for your goals, and keep those goals in mind every time you eat. Know what good food is, know what nutritionally worthless garbage is, know what you like and dislike, and look at it realistically and practically, and not so scientifically. I can't say it enough that all of this truly is an art, and not a science. Don't so much write what you're gonna eat before you eat it and think you MUST follow that or you will become small and fat....have a damn good idea, premake some stuff, but don't write until after you eat, and you don't need an MS in nutrition, once you get the idea of what nutritionally dense foods are, a little common sense will take you a long way.

 

[JKurz1]

Well, his first day went well.....used the posts from above and can tell it may be a struggle in a week or two.....diet is good and he has nixed cardio other than on Tuesday and thursdays after school.....Ill prob. have him do some moderate incline walking on the tread or maybe recumberant bike work just to get a good sweat in......

What kind of rest. training do you guys do on your off days? Abs, calves, farmer walks, sled pulls? Any good cardio programs?

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

Well, his first day went well.....used the posts from above and can tell it may be a struggle in a week or two.....diet is good and he has nixed cardio other than on Tuesday and thursdays after school.....Ill prob. have him do some moderate incline walking on the tread or maybe recumberant bike work just to get a good sweat in......

What kind of rest. training do you guys do on your off days? Abs, calves, farmer walks, sled pulls? Any good cardio programs?

You shouldn't bother with anything on your off days. That's why they're off days. Do a little bit of abs at the end of your session, if you must. Start off with minimal volume, and then add as you progress over multiple cycles.

 

[JKurz1]

So Wednesday, we got Deads, OH Press, and squats again less the 5%.....on?

 

[view]

So Wednesday, we got Deads, OH Press, and squats again less the 5%.....on?

and chins too. and the squats should be 15-20% less, not 5.

 

[Protobuilder]

No offense, but how on earth can you justify training someone? Honestly, you might want to pick up some good books like "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe or "The Strongest Shall Survive" by Bill Starr. They're full of useful, practical info.

 

[JKurz1]

No offense, but how on earth can you justify training someone? Honestly, you might want to pick up some good books like "Starting Strength" by Mark Rippetoe or "The Strongest Shall Survive" by Bill Starr. They're full of useful, practical info.

Well, truth is, without tooting my own horn, I probaly know more about dieting/athletic performance/etc. than 95% of the population. Training, I know quit a bit, but VERY LITTLE when it comes to Madcows routine. However, I've heard good things and thought it would be ideal for him. So we are learning it together......pretty simplly stated.

Wednesday Ill add 3 sets of chins, and reduce squats 15-20%............

What do you guys do on your off days?

 

[blut wump]

On off days I might do some sled dragging or walking depending on how I'm feeling or even just playing with the dogs. During an intense program, those days are needed more for recovery than wearing myself down further. Eat a bit extra and put your feet up.

 

[view]

Well, his first day went well.....used the posts from above and can tell it may be a struggle in a week or two.....diet is good and he has nixed cardio other than on Tuesday and thursdays after school.....Ill prob. have him do some moderate incline walking on the tread or maybe recumberant bike work just to get a good sweat in......

What kind of rest. training do you guys do on your off days? Abs, calves, farmer walks, sled pulls? Any good cardio programs?

nope nope and nope. 25-35 minutes of light cardio is the only acceptable item for off days.

 

[JKurz1]

THIS RIGHT FOR TODAY?
ADD 100 TO ALL LIFTS


SQUATS
60 x5
70 x5
75x5
75x5
75*8

OH PRESS
50
55
60
65
70
100*8

DEADS
110
125
140
150
160

CHINS
-BWx5
-BWx5
-BW5
BWX5

DBELL CRLS X 6
-50x12 X10
ABS X10

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

ADD 100 TO ALL LIFTS

Uh, why?

 

[JKurz1]

Uh, why?

thats his goal,,,,,,,,,,,,eventually

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

thats his goal,,,,,,,,,,,,eventually

Is there a reason for your onslaught of periods and commas everywhere?

That "kid" shouldn't be OHPing more than he squats. That's just wrong. Even cripples can squat more than they OHP. And by 'cripples' I mean people with amputated legs.

 

[Protobuilder]

Sounds like you're doing a great job training this kid.

 

[JKurz1]

actually box sqauts and he's getting the form down...started with 160, struggled after 5 to get his balance, so I thought that would be a good starting point......trust me, he's never ever lifted legs..........ever..........he's got terrible knees and will come along

 

[view]

anyone else get the feeling that this isn't about your freind and actually is about Jkurz?

seriously bro, nobody cares if it is you, and i'd rather deal with someone directly than someone who is like, this isn't me... blah blah....

either way, if it is you, which I think it is. you are getting there considering where you came from.

 

[Anthrax Invasion]

anyone else get the feeling that this isn't about your freind and actually is about Jkurz?

seriously bro, nobody cares if it is you, and i'd rather deal with someone directly than someone who is like, this isn't me... blah blah....

either way, if it is you, which I think it is. you are getting there considering where you came from.

Notice where I quoted "kid" and realize - "Hey, he's thinking the same thing!", 'cause I am.