Please Scroll Down to See Forums Below Can anyone outline the pro's and con's to doing one 5000iu hcg shot at the start of your pct. Followed by 1500iu m/w/f for 3 weeks? I ask becasue I came across articles in the past that advocate high hcg burst for those really shut down. And I believe i am in that situation. Thanks.
5000iu HCG shot
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Mr.X
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I'm an advocate of doing 500IUs of HCG ED for 10days, 7 before the PCT starts. That should be plenty for most users.
VascularitY
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Mr.X said:
500IUs for 10 days...that simple, is that all you do for HCG?
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Mr.X
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JayWill said:
For HCG, that's all, nolvadex is also involved in that mix
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Mr.X
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doogle said:
how long is your cycle?
djsf
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I would do 500iu of HCG every day for 10 days as Mr.X said. alternatively you can do 1000iu every other day for the same period with about the same results. I wouldn't take much bigger shots than 1000iu's (as some will suggest). There is reported to be risk of permanently desensitizing the leydig cells doing that, which would be really bad. No point in taking any unnecessary risk there. The slin pin shots are real easy.
How much HCG to do depends on your cycle. If it was a short mild cycle and your testicles haven't shrunk very noticeably, then 5000 iu's is probably enough. It it was a long cycle, or of your testicles are noticeably reduced, then you might need 10,000iu's. Some people who have really done themselves in with excessive dosages for too long may need even more HCG, or multiple treatments.
Opinions vary as to when to take HCG. I think pretty much anything will work, more or less. I like to take HCG during the period after my last shot when the long esters are being eliminated from my system, timing it so I take the last shot of HCG right around the time androgen levels are crossing the baseline. That means the last shot of HCG would be sometime around week 3-4 after the last shot of a long ester, such as deca or test enant/cyp. Right around that point (just before the baseline crossing) is also when you would hit it hard with nolva therapy and possibly clomid, trying to recover your natural test production.
Use this site to determine when your declining androgen levels will cross baseline: http://bulkmuscle.com/pct/index.php
During the time you are taking HCG, and for several days before and after, you will definitely want to be taking (at a minimum) nolva to block estrogen.
How much HCG to do depends on your cycle. If it was a short mild cycle and your testicles haven't shrunk very noticeably, then 5000 iu's is probably enough. It it was a long cycle, or of your testicles are noticeably reduced, then you might need 10,000iu's. Some people who have really done themselves in with excessive dosages for too long may need even more HCG, or multiple treatments.
Opinions vary as to when to take HCG. I think pretty much anything will work, more or less. I like to take HCG during the period after my last shot when the long esters are being eliminated from my system, timing it so I take the last shot of HCG right around the time androgen levels are crossing the baseline. That means the last shot of HCG would be sometime around week 3-4 after the last shot of a long ester, such as deca or test enant/cyp. Right around that point (just before the baseline crossing) is also when you would hit it hard with nolva therapy and possibly clomid, trying to recover your natural test production.
Use this site to determine when your declining androgen levels will cross baseline: http://bulkmuscle.com/pct/index.php
During the time you are taking HCG, and for several days before and after, you will definitely want to be taking (at a minimum) nolva to block estrogen.
NEVER do a shot as big as 5000, or even close. Leydig cell desensitization can be permanent from what i've heard if you use too much or use it too long, but temporary desensitization can result more easily from using too much in one shot. If your first shot is too big, the following shots will have a greatly reduced effect, which means you are also desensitizing yourself to whatever natural LH production you've regained as well. I would error on the side of too little HCG rather than too much, because the drawbacks aren't as bad. Like everyone else said, 500 ED or 1000 3x/week are the tried and true PCTS.
ok guys im totaly confused here.im takeing 8weeks of test ex elmu,and about5 weeks of winny depot.iwas gona add some deka but im leaveing it out.heres my stats.1-8weeks-testex elmu.500mg5-9weeks.winny evry 2nd day.iwas gona do hcg ,1500iu mid cycle and 5000iu end cycle.ialso have 24 clomid tabs.im gona have another kid this year so i need to do pct.help guys.i go on holiday for 2 weeks on the 19th may that leaves 12 weeks from today.so would it be possible to run hcg stright after winny for 15 days.evry 5 days.then that would lead up til the day i fly,so when i come back in 2weeks start my clomid,im just lookin it my options here,becouse i know clomid should be ran 2weeks after last shot of test.but could i do it this way .
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nuthnbutfords
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"Anabolics 2006" recommends a opening shot of up to 5000iu's if the cycle was on the heavy side (850mg+/8+weeks). This is a pretty well respected book, as is the author, William Llewellyn. Other than the book, I have never heard anyone taking a dosages that large.
I'm following Anthony Roberts pct, which seems to be working out (currently on).
I'm following Anthony Roberts pct, which seems to be working out (currently on).
Mr.X said:
To me 5000iu of hcg followed by 1500iu 3x/wk for 3 wks seems like overkill with risks.
Mr. X is the hcg protocol you suggest for cycles running up to about 10 wks with total compound dosages at or less than 1000mg?
For a long cycle running at 16+ wks with total compound dosages well above 1000mg. Would you advocate a mid cycle hcg run of 500iu/day with 20 mg nolva for 7 days followed by a pct of 1000iu hcg 3x/wk for 3 wks with nolva and clomid followed by 3 more wks of nolva and clomid. This has been tried and true. But I'm wondering if there was a better way.
Could you comment on the first paragraph of this summary below as it relates to shorter cycles using moderate compound dosages? Also do you agree with the second paragraph? I am trying to reason where users cross the threshold and usage of hcg becomes imperative to recovery. Also, I'm trying to assess the point that hcg is being overused in cycles that are long and highly dosed and standard protocol would require its use to begin with.
Leydig Cell Desensitization:
Leydig cell desensitization does in fact occur to some degree with prolonged or high dose HCG usage. Using it continuously during a cycle could possibly cause the LH receptor to desensitize which in turn would ultimately render the PCT to be either less effective or possibly useless. This seems counterproductive. HCG will not be needed on cycles where the proper ancillaries are used and where the dosages/durations are realistic.
The previous summary was a general statement. The reality and good news is that Leydig cell desensitization due to HCG usage is blocked and/or minimized by Nolvadex. This occurs by suppressing HCG's ability to inhibit the conversion of 17 alpha hydroxyprogesterone to testosterone.
Get a pdr and read about HCG, you will find that very large doses are commonly used in medical situations involving hormone replacement therapy. It is wise to obtain all the information possible and also to pay attention to "the experiment of one" which means that different people respond to different doses, substances, etc. Everything written in this thread so far is good advise, now find what works for you. Be cautious because permanent damage is possible and there is a very real risk of a pretty nasty case of gyno with large doses of HCG. The wise person is well informed. Good luck. P.S I just did two shots of HCG 5 days apart at 2500mg each. Now Clomid and Nolva.
doogle said:
I'm trying to get Mr.X to respond to my post but I don't think he's on line. If you read my post you'll see that my pct is for a long and high dose cycle which yours is not thus, I'm giving you an example of what I don't think you should do. I can give you an example of a protocol but X's, the more I think about it, should be fine. Why? Because on a short cycle with moderate doses your testicular atrophy should not be too significant (unless you have another issue). So, a low dose run of hcg as X suggests makes sense because it will probably do the job without the risk of desensitizing the leydig cells which becomes a problem and will cause pct failure. Doing the hcg protocol during cycle the way X recommends is fine as all you're trying to do is return your guys to normal size in preparation to get back to the business of producing test which comes later in pct. I also think X is picking the time where you would have the most atrophy. If I was doing a short cycle I'd be confident in using this as my pct
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Mr.X
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mrp3652 said:
See the highlighted.
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Mr.X
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g mac said:
There is no #s set in stone on HCG usage. However, the 500IUs for 10 days is a dosages you can use even if you did over 1gr of test. The reality is that everything is variable and subjective to the person using, so the same thing that works for one person is not necessarily going to work for another.
Even if you go over 10 wks and over 1gr of test, the HCG amount should be plenty especially if you're running nolvadex with it.
g mac said:
I agree with both of the paragraphs. They were written by Jenetic, and he's on the cutting edge of PCT research.
http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/showthread.php?t=376177
Overuse of HCG does cause LH receptors to desensitize, but this can be minimized/stopped by the use of nolvadex. Personally, I only suggest HCG PCT, unless your cycles are over 16 weeks.
Mr.X said:
Thanks, X that's where I got the info (Jenetic) and now I have had first hand success with the protocol that I posted above. I have offered that protocol as advice to someone in another thread but, this thread has got me wondering if some of these pct protocols I see are excessive in there use of hcg although I'm sure required dosages will change from person to person.
ok guys so ive just read of a link to take hcg mon wed fri.1500iu.does that mean for 1 week? then follow with clomid,could some 1 just state if i should do a mid cycle,and state time and days,im all new to this and getting a little confused,ive showing you my cycle now is it possible for some 1 to state how many iu,s of hcgs to take and when to take them. can i take my clomid togeather wiv hcgs,
doogle said:
Go backwards in this thread and read post #2 that's Mr.X recommendation.
Then go to post #16 and that is a pct that I've recommended because I know it works but it's for a long cycle with high doses.
Then read post #20 and Mr.X answers some of my questions about the use of hcg.
You may find that Mr.X's hcg recommendation might be what you're looking for. But the one I posted was developed by a person very knowledgeable in pct protocol. There is a very good pct forum on this site but you need to be a plat member to view it.
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