My question/statement is this:

Why would you even consider using drugs to enhance your body before reaching your natural potential?

Yet almost every day I see posts on boards (this one and others) about people asking for advice on which steroid they should use to 'get big' or 'cut up.' The reason this bothers me is because most of these posts are coming from people with less than 2 years of strict dedication to their diet and training, and almost no education on either. (I should add that I do NOT believe that 2 years is the minimum requirement for AS use, I simply used that number as an example to how quickly people are willing to forget that hard work and dedication produce results for longer than 2 years.)

My opinion probably won't make a difference, but I just thought I would share.

And just so you know, I am not against AS use with men or women.

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BRING THE PAIN

Heather xx

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http://www.heatherdarling.com

If 3 years and 25lbs was all you could produce naturally, then no harm done by taking the next step with AS. But if another 3 years could have produced 10-15lbs naturally, then why not wait?

I'm not a worldly person, my finances have kept me pretty local. But what I do see in my immediate environment is that most people want to do the right thing: it's just that they don't know how. Take my neighborhood salad bar for example. My partner and I are sitting in there for lunch a few weeks ago and I said, "look around and count the number of grossly overweight people in here and then count up the number of total people". It came out to about 10 out of twelve.
3 of my co-workers decided to go on Atkins within the last ~2 months. It took about 3 weeks or more for one guy to figure out that canned fruit was not on the recommended foods list. How can you go on a high protein diet it you don't know the difference between a protein and a carb? "What, read labels??!"

"what do you mean I have to measure out my servings?! KEEP A JOURNAL???"
How can you possibly succeed if you don't know what youre doing, is my take on the situation. But we learn from our mistakes as well as our successes: that's just a fact of life.

I had lipo in my first year of training: at three years, I'm supplementing with AS. Was my body at it's full 'natural' potential? Probably not. Do I have any regrets? Not one.

Just take it one day at a time and do what you can to share the lessons of your mistakes along with the success. That's all you can really hope to do.

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Nam Et Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est!

"I'd rather die young and strong, than old and weak."

i've been training seriously for a year and a half before i started juicing. i was working out for 5 years total before i started. i wouldn't count the earlier years though since i really did not know what i was doing. i knew my body though and my genetics sucked. i knew the only way to look the way i wanted to was to juice. i probably could've gotten there w/o the juice in another 2 years or whatever. but who has the time and your only young for so long.

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"The race is long... and in the end, it's only with yourself."

And as for seeing fast results, I can totally understand where people are coming from. I measure time in nanoseconds. But I try to think of long term. I realize there is a difference between 'use' and 'abuse,' but let's face it - 10 years of 'use' will be harder on your body than 2-3 years of 'use.' So if I can limit my use to 2-3 years after I reach my potential, then I will definitely wait.

The most common regret I hear from educated and experienced users is, "I wish I would have waited a little longer." And the simple reason is because once you start to use, your potential for natural gains is reduced significantly. So sure, do a couple cycles to reach the size/strength you want and then go natural, right (I know many people who say this)? The problem being that you will make very little progress one you stop using AS. So your only option to gain more size? Do another cycle. If you don't mind being dependent on the use of AS for gains, then all the power to you, but I would rather make natural gains while I still can, and then use AS when I actually need it to make gains.

Again, I am a firm supportor of AS in experienced and educated users.

My first reaction comes from my career/background as a geneticist. I cringe when people blame their situation on 'genetics' when they really only have a vague, ill-formed idea of what that means. Obviously if you are born with, say, Cystic Fibrosis your genetic disability has a alrge impact on your lifestyle! But the incidence of CF has not increased in the last century, while obesity has become an out-of-control epidemic. Any epidemiologist will point out that obesity does not have the hallmark of a genetic disease!

My second reaction is to question what it means to reach one's genetic potential. No one can know this until they're dead! But seriously, any young adult male out there who thinks that he can't grow anymore without drugs can come talk to me face to face. I have made small but consistant muscle gains all my life, and I don't have more than 1/10 the natural test levels of your average young buck. When his own natural test levels have dropped low (in middle age) then I might listen to that arguement. But even then I would be tempted to say that we are now just on a level playing field!

Which brings me to the what I think is the real issue. Societal expectations. Plain and simple. In a society where old, obese and flabby(and even young, obese and flabby) is the norm, the premium honors are bestowed upon the rare treasure, in other words young, lean and muscular. Youth are already naturally impatient, and when you put young, ripped muscular bodies on a pedestal it is inevitable that people will do what ever they can to get there as quickly as they can. How many 18 year olds think the best of their life will be over by the time they're 25? The drive to accomplish everything in life by then becomes a consuming passion. The best high School football players get the most chicks and into the best colleges. The fitness chicks like-wise get the guys and the modelling contracts, and it is well documented that 'good-looking' people are more likely to get any job they apply for and have more friends.

Societal expectations also have to bear a lot of the blame for the high rate of obesity. Western society encourages massive advertizing of quick, cheap junk food. This advertizing more often than not tries to convince us how much better our lives will be if we consume their products. Nutritional education in schools is a joke in the face of this onslaught, and when you're young you don't care anyway about what happens to your body after 25. Holiday occassions always revolve around over-eating. It seems to be the only way some families can stand to be together is to use gluttiny as the excuse.

I myself have not and always said that I never would use A/S. Unfortunately as I have ventured into the world of competitve BB I see that at some point this will become a necessity. I am not delusional. I am not now, nor will I ever be Cory Everson. Heck, I don't even know if I will ever aspire to compete on a state let alone national level. I just want to get better at something that I love doing and I want to make my daughters (and hubby) proud, that's all. Nothing more, nothing less. As far as genetic potential goes, I feel that I have only begun to scratch the surface!

For the record, I trained off and on ever since I was a lad of like 15. And did not do my first cycle until I was like 32 (35 now) Had I reached my full potential? Most likely not. Was I making any real progress, very damn little. Then a string of back luck. Late in year 30, I got a broken foot, two lower back surgeries followed in early and late 31, and a god blessed fricking hernia early 32!

Well after a year of "therapy", which did little to nothing, I took matters in to my own hands. Had I not been injured, and the complete lack of the medical community to help me recover to my original condition, I might not have ever been motivated to look into roids. And the rest, as they say, is history.

Am I glad, Hell YES. I went from a fairly lean and strong 185 to a fat 210 (I figure about 25% B/F). Now after some very hard work and �assistance� I�m right at 230 and 15% B/F give or take a few % .

Will I ever go back natural, sure! Coming up on a break right after this cycle as a matter of fact! Should last a good 8 to 10 weeks of being natural :p

Late

Lobo

Let's take the average joe who is inundated with a plethora of garbage every single day promisin' him/her the body of her dreams for just $99.99 or whatever. For God's sake we have Chuck Norris,Richard Simmons is Sweatin to the Oldies, Toni Little, Tai BO!, Oh, my personal favorite--The Fat Trapper. Come on you've seen the commercial with the buff guys and gals sitting outside at a barbeque eating shit and lookin' good. When these items all fail and we all here no that they will have NO success then BAM! What's wrong with ME? Start looking for the quick fix.

Potentially these are your abusers. Uneducated people who have, by a combination of naiviety and lack of education about nutrition and training, come to believe that just by taking AS they will grow big beautiful muscles--heck they won't even have to train! News media and the hype about AS is just as damaging as the unscrupulous advertisers who don't give a shit if their claims are true. This mix leads to a bigger mess.

2 well brandished statistics come to mind. One is that around 20-25% of high school males have used AS. Even if that's only half-way to the truth, it's still a large chunk of our youth. The other is that as much as 80% of so-called steroids out there on the black market are fakes, with no active ingredient. And again if we halve this stat that still gives us almost 50% fake.

should we try to fix teanage wrecklessness in general while we're at it? The spread of AIDs in high schools? ...maybe, maybe capitalist greed!

I believe in natural selection and the survival of the fitest.
...speaking of the fitest, what's the latest on Texas Guns?? Haven't heard from you for a while girl!

Some very good points.

One question I have though. Why do we say that after roid use, you will not be able to gain naturally? And that we limit our ability to make gains - except with gear.

My only PHISICAL counter point to this would be that gear, in fact, speeds up your progress by enabling one to reaching their "natural" potential quicker - and then surpasses that natural potential. After all, gear (in quantity) is an un-natural state, and therefore, without it, one would never be able to achieve a certain level of mass, or even maintain it for very long anyway. Based on this, a 18/19 year old �man� could see tremendous gains and substantial results! (And they do.) Why try to put in twice as much ADDITIONAL effort to get the last few remaining small gains? Why not use the gear and move beyond � sometimes far beyond the �natural potential wall�?

But as well all know, lifting is not all physical � is it.... Nope, not by a long shot. It takes one hell of allot of MENTAL discipline and CONTROL. Roids are a drug. Even though the �high� is not instant, it is none-the-less VERY powerful. Yesterday I was helping a lady in the gym � explaining the benefits of building muscle to help her lose fat. And she said, �well, it�s easier for you � you�re a BRICK SHIT HOUSE.� Now I would be lying my ass off if I were to tell you this didn�t made my fricking week! Don�t tell me the glance here, a peek there, and even a down right stare doesn�t bring ya a slight grin. And this my friends, is when you know your hooked. Can anyone truly say someone as young as 18/19 (hell even 35) can keep it in check if they have but months of training behind them? If you have worked for years, been dedicated to becoming stronger, bigger, etc, then maybe, just maybe, you will appreciate the effects roids can - and do have. And then possibly you will be in a better position to handle the results.

So you see, for me, the debate should be centered around the mental aspect of �gear use�, more than the physical issue. I just see the physical side of the argument to be a dead end road. While the mental challenge lays bare the true danger to both old and young alike.

Late

I do feel that waiting still has positive physical aspects, though. First, better to start with a strong foundation. Second, 10-20 years of gear use will take a toll on anyone. Third, eventually your receptors will wear out and the gear won't 'latch' like it used to, so as time progress, even the gains you get from AS will be limited. I'd rather go from 220 to 235 than from 115 to 130 for my first cycle (but that's just me).

On the other hand, the mental aspects are important also. The discipline, dedication, appreciation, and love for this lifestyle can't truly be appreciate unless you put in your time of working your ass off for 5lbs. Not saying that gear users don't appreciate the sport, but when your first gym membership was bought the same day you bought a cycle of sustanon, then 10lbs in a month is no big deal to you. That same 10lbs for a natty will take considerably longer, and in turn, probably appreciated more. Or you have the person who trains for a few years, blindly doing what the magazines tell, and make very little progress. They become discouraged, and like the above post said, after trying every supp on the shelf, they are CONVINCED that steroids are the answer because they are a hard gainer. In turn, they lose appreciation for the hard work they missed out on.

Let me make it very clear that in NO way do I assume that gear grows muscles with no effort. In the above paragraphs I picture a friend of mine who is 5'11, 156lbs soaking wet and thinks that he'll gain 45-50lbs in 8 weeks and keep 40 of it. He knows nothing about training, diet, heavy drinker, etc, etc. - yet once he joins a gym, he's starting a cycle so he can be 'buff.' He will never appreciate the hard work that goes into this lifestyle, and he'll probably never weigh more than 160lbs for very long.

I know some people are going to use AS as soon as they can, no matter what others say to them. What can you do? I just wish more people had access to information that could help them make a more informed decision based on the big picture, and not just 'hey guys, I want to harden up, should I do winny or primo?'

BTW, excellent contributions!

peace romeo

some people call it heart
champions call it desire

Lobo man - the training info was really cool, applied it, thanx, but this A/S question will always go hand in hand w/BB.

I feel though somewhat confused with all of the enlightenment. I'd say this is a clear sign that I need to gain more knowledge so that I can make intelligent decisions that are the best ones FOR ME.

i think it is a personal choice. a choice one makes and should not be judged by others who think it might not be a good decission, not to mention something they would choose. kinda like pot or crap-o-la like that. who knows, i might be crazy, hell, i know i am crazy.
crazy dirtyratt

My brother has also influenced me. My brother has been working out since 18 (now he's 23) he is so very dedicated. He's tried like hell to gain 15-20 pounds, he eats like a frickin horse , i make a pan of ziti and he alone will eat the whole pan. He works his a$$ off at the gym but couldn't seem to gain for shit. Well he was givin the opportunity and took it. He did one cycle and BOOM! Now he is 10 pounds heavier, lookin frickin good. He's got people at his job comin up to him askin for his work-out plan! He loves it. Now he's on his second cylce hoping to gain another 10. He says he'll stop after this one.? I couldn't be happier for him. he is accomplishing his goals with the help of AS.

Excellent thread Caesar...ladies you are all AWESOME! (Oh you men are okay too....)

You bring up many excellent points. In my gym it's very obvious I juice. I am constantly being approached by the teenage boys and younger men and asked about gear and diet. And my advice to them is Lift,eat,grow for a solid 2 years before even considering it. I was 22 and weighed 218 when I started and now when I blow up I get up to 280 or maybe someday god willing 300lbs and still maintain a body fat of 16% or below and all this at a stately 5'10.I believe no man under 200lbs should touch steroids until he naturally achieves and can maintain that body weight. Gear for me has and always will be a plateau buster, I use it,but never abuse it.

IG

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Nam Et Ipsa Scientia Potestas Est!

Ceas- Where the hell ya been?

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(({{{{missgalaxy}}}}))