I am asking for some help here, because unlike most men, I can admit that I dont know everything(ha).

If anything it should be your last recourse. Try other NATURAL options first and if you don't obtain the results you are looking for then try A/S.

If you can't keep a proper diet or train hard without A/S. A/S won't help you with that. You have to give it your all with or without A/S.

Just my .02

I also can get big very easily, I could be 220lbs if I wanted, and I have. I have a bad knee, and the extra weight is very hard on it (total knee reconstruction). My ideal weight is about 190-200lbs and about 12-15% fat. Is that possible. I think part of my problem is that I have allways had this much fat, ever since high school 6 yrs ago. It is very dense hard fat deposits. I dont know much about different types of fat, so maybe it will be much harder to get rid of.

I also can get big very easily, I could be 220lbs if I wanted, and I have. I have a bad knee, and the extra weight is very hard on it (total knee reconstruction). My ideal weight is about 190-200lbs and about 12-15% fat. Is that possible. I think part of my problem is that I have allways had this much fat, ever since high school 6 yrs ago. It is very dense hard fat deposits. I dont know much about different types of fat, so maybe it will be much harder to get rid of.

I will work as hard as I can to achieve the results. But hey, if I amputting in hard work and not getting the results I want, then I am not doing it right. Thats why I am here, to get help.

At 25% bodyfat, then only thing anabolics will do is get you bigger. Concentrate on a bit of defining, and see what you've got to work with before you go taking winny or fina or test for that matter. Good luck.

You sound desperate but you need to focus, decide which ave you will pursue but I would definitely hold off on the A/S for now.

Good Luck

Get yourself some ECA, clen, and maybe some thyroid if your levels are low. Have someone draw you up a diet and training program and stick to it. I'm sure many of the board members here would be happy to help you with this. BTW, 20 minutes of cardio is just long enough to burn up your muscle glycogen, and not long enough to burn fat. You really need to do a minimum of 40 minutes (preferably 60) first thing in the morning with some ECA in your system to burn some serious fat. Once you get a bit leaner, you can consider other types of cardio such as sprint intervals.

Its just a term we use for it so as not to draw a lot of outside attention to conversation.

Yes, The ingredients in AS are produced on mammals, But you add additional doses of what your own body already produces, to induce Physical enhancement of the body.
Hence our term for synthetics.(Sythetic=not natural. So either way you look at, the addition of AS to ones body is not natural, Since you need it to achieve results beyond your own genetics.)

This is not a rip on AS, remember this statement is coming from someone who has no problem getting big. I may be more biased than a hard gainer.( in fact my views to a hard gainer would probably be opposite.) I have a completely different problem, I cant get ripped without tons of work. Some hard gainers (usually ripped to begin with) will never be big no matter how hard they try naturally.

Also miss Singer, DESERVE to use AS, what is it, some sort of special thing That only the elite can use, after putting years of incorrect training only to gain five lbs of muscle. Your right then, I dont deserve, I think ill put in some more time till I can be more like you.
Also I have seen your boob post, And It sounds like you ended up hear for the same reason I did. Cant find the answers unless you ask real life people. The internet is helpful, but it is also a place of business, retail business. A lot of advertising out there, and when was the last time you actually believed a sales pitch, especially one you cant see or touch.

Also, I said I was thinking about AS. Big difference between thinking and doing. I asked a question, and got the answer I needed. I will not be taking them, I have found no real evidence that it will give me any results that My own genetics wont give me. Except maybe winny, seems to help in cutting up. Doesnt mean I am going on it tomorrow. I figure, If I cant get ripped in 6 months, I'll entertain the idea again. Just because you are Knowlegable about AS doesnt mean you know everything, and I dont like my intelligence be the subject of criticism. This subject happens to be something I am not well versed in, I am trying to learn (by the way, instead of telling me to read a book, how about recommending one instead). Do me a favor and ask me something about running a Billion dollar company. Yep I am 24, Loaded. Bet that burns you too. Unortunately, I am totally lying out my ass, but maybe now youll realize how negative you sound. Smile once in a while, you just might like it.

As far as a mans opinion is concerned, go on top of the breast, it looks better, and less problems later on if you cant work out any more (for whatever reason.)

My friends girl had them underneath when they first started doing it that way, and she let herself go for a couple of years after she had their baby, and he said they looked really funky.

Just my OPINION..., to your... QUESTION.
Notice I didnt get nasty and say
"What makes you think you deserve bigger breasts"
Who am I to question you, I dont even know you. I actually hope for the best for you, I hope you love them. It is all about empowerment, I think we all deserve that.

At the time I was tested in the gym, was in phenominal Shape. She only had fat in the back of her upper arms. She thought she was about 15-18% She got tested after I did, and she was 30%fat according to her trainer. She thought she was about 15-18% before she got tested. She Was in California at the time and I lived in Arizona. Two different gyms, but the machine she described sounded like the same kind that was used on me.

She was 5'6" and 125 and had been working out 5 days a week for a year solid and on a diet.
with a trainer, and a nutritionist. If it is any consequence, she was an A cup, so not much fat there either. I was baffled.

Wombat, depending on who you believe, 25-40% of American males are over 25% bodyfat. This does not mean that it is HEALTHY, but it certainly means that reaching your 'fat' definition of 15% BF is currently outta reach for most American males without some serious re-education and lifestyle changes. And if you think "strict dieting" isn't hard work then IMHO you need your head examined. "But it takes a hard mind"..... This can be true, but I believe that hard-minded people do not make good lifetime partners for anyone. So once again it is a matter of sorting out your priorities.

Now I agree with your assessment "It is a lifestyle---cut your carbs-drink more water-and no sugars-morning cardio". But when you say "make it your lifestyle and it will be very easy to get under 10% and stay their" I disagree completely. Under 10% for a male in your average, well fed, sociable culture seems a recipe for nuttin but a string of short-term relationships. This is even more true the older you get. I'm guessing Wombat is a young male who feels sex is his only mission in life. I may regret posting this, but honestly, if wombat gets to 100 years, remains basically happy, married to the same person and stays under 10%bf the whole time, then I'll re-assess my position.

Wombat further says "Dude if your 25% then you are eating like shit".....well hopefully this is past-tense for slither. But again I remind everyone who reads this post that the 'average' american eats around 40% fat in their diet. If you are what you eat then it is truly amazing that more Americans are not 40% BF or more. I am not excusing slither's eating habits. I am merely pointing out that slither is well within the "norm" for american males, and rather than feel ashamed about where he IS, it would be more productive to focus on where he is GOING.

Marla and wombat, I know NOTHING about you. I can only assume that your input is well intentioned. But I would like to re-enforce that all board members are at Different levels of knowledge and experience. It's all valuable info as long as it's not a personal attack.

And finally, I would not be even handed if I didn't dish out a few words of advice for slither! Grasshopper you have much to learn.

Body-for-life is a good book for you to start with. This book is hated by MANY MANY so-called bodybuilders, but the essence of it is worth a read. I also think you should send a few questions to the diet discussion board here at elite fitness. There are also some other boards where you should visit, such as www.anabolicfitness.com
and www.mesomorph.net

But the best advice I can give is to spend a few months....yes MONTHS just reading on these boards and learn as much basic stuff as you can. Then you'll be in a position to ask questions that are more meaningful to everyone.

Peace to all and GO TO BED

1 45g labrada chocolate protein shake.
4 hydroxycut tablets.
1/4 cup raw broccoli, 6 0z boneless skinless chicken breast grilled with a pinch of salt and pepper. with water,( dont know how much water it was, I drink it out of a gallon jug. 2 jugs a day now) 8:00am

10:00am an apple

4 more hydroxycut tablets
12:00 One can bumble bee tuna with tablespoon lowfat mayo, on a bed of lettuce.

3:00p 2 raw carrots

1 45g protein shake
4 more hydroxycut shakes
6:00p 12 0z pan seared tuna(fresh) No oil, non stick pan. With two cups wilted greans. Lettuce, Boc choy, Pinch salt, and pepper, and cayenne pepper.

This is a typical day, About seven days ago i cut out the shakes all together to lighten up the calories, could be a mistake what do you think.

slither.

I have been really strict for like the last 3 or 4 weeks.

I never eat really fattening stuff though. I wasnt that strict, I just didnt eat every 2-3 hrs, like 3 meals aday 2500 calories.

I was drinking like a liter bottle of diet pepsi for a while about a month and a half ago until I saw how much sodium was in it. I didnt even look at that, ya know 0 calories. forgot about the salt. Besides, I read in mens health that it was like a fat burner in a sense. Lots of caffeine, and 0 calories. I dont buy it.

What do you think? will I lose fat this way?

I am going to get my levels tested.

Why, brown rice as opposed to white.

Can I cook all this stuff like on sunday and just eat it cold, or should it be made fresh daily.(egg whites I know will not keep more than a couple days).
I have sort of reached the dog food stage when it comes to eating. I dont care if its hot or cold, its just fuel.

That was very nice of you by the way, I appreciate it.

Its not hard work for me to diet, its hard to do the cardio, I hate that, that's work.

Oh do you have a suggestion for best cardio excercise,(I cant jog, to much joint stress, bad knee. I can do sprints though because I run on my toes and I am very fast, so my feet barely touch the ground.)

Right now I am riding a conventional mountain bike outside of a five mile loop around the neighborhood in 25 minutes. Its flat too. It provides constant resistance.

Eating everything that's low fat doesn't mean you will lose bodyfat. Your body needs a certain amount of fat to keep your hormones and metabolism normal. Diet is more about getting the right amounts of foods, this means the right proteins, fats, carbs ect combined with the right energy intake. 3-4 weeks is not a long time to be on a diet and I find I don't notice much weight loss for the first 4-6 weeks on a cutting diet. Then a chunk suddenly disappears, before another 4 weeks seeing no weight loss.

Why, brown rice as opposed to white.

Can I cook all this stuff like on sunday and just eat it cold, or should it be made fresh daily.(egg whites I know will not keep more than a couple days).
I have sort of reached the dog food stage when it comes to eating. I dont care if its hot or cold, its just fuel.

That was very nice of you by the way, I appreciate it.

Its not hard work for me to diet, its hard to do the cardio, I hate that, that's work.

Oh do you have a suggestion for best cardio excercise,(I cant jog, to much joint stress, bad knee. I can do sprints though because I run on my toes and I am very fast, so my feet barely touch the ground.)

Right now I am riding a conventional mountain bike outside of a five mile loop around the neighborhood in 25 minutes. Its flat too. It provides constant resistance.

It might be advantagous for you to see an Endocrinologist. A doctor who specializes in the endocrine system will be able to better tell you about your hormone levels than anyone else.

About your diet... Sounds to me as though you have not been eating correctly for that long. Doing morning cardio on an empty stomache will work. Wombat is absolutely correct. This is a lifestyle. I train hard, I eat clean and I don't cycle. Why? Because I am getting where I want to be naturally. When that stops, a few years from now, I will think about it. And, I guarantee that I have been training longer than you. You have to train and eat correctly in order for the cycle to be beneficial. You should take my earlier response as a warning. Someone had to tell you that you were in over your head and that you have a great deal to learn. There is no quick fix and if you start stacking shit incorrectly you could kill yourself.

The last place I would tell the average
'man on the street' to get educated is a pharmacology book/journal. Maybe some day you will be interested enough in technical topics to read these things for fun (and understand them). Otherwise I agree with Marla Singer. You need to learn enough to be in control of your own body/lifestyle. And if you want to take steroids, because you 'just want them' then that is fine too. As long as you know what you're getting in to. READ LEARN READ LEARN then ask questions.

So this is a women's board. Perhaps slither should get himself a new ID, such as 'slight-her' and try again without admitting he's a male. This is the internet and we can all pretend to be anyone we want to be, lie through our keyboards and 'virtually' get the results we want. But ultimatley slither's problems/questions/solutions are much the same for any female in a similar sitch.

Wombat I also agree with. I think the plan you've drawn up for slither is spot-on. I guess I felt you were a little controversial saying that it was easy and no work for a male to stay under 10%bf for life. But otherwise I could not agree more. I hope we hear more from all 3 of you here ont he women's board soon!