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 Elite Fitness Bodybuilding, Anabolics, Diet, Life Extension, Wellness, Supplements, and Training Boards
 Chat & Conversation
 WHO HERE IS A LIBERTARIAN?
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| Author | Topic: WHO HERE IS A LIBERTARIAN? | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder 
Posts: 185 |
If you are one, explain why you became one and what still appeals you to the party today? And if you aren't one, go to www.lp.org, read up on the party and then make an argument on why you still feel this party isn't for you. And finally, Libertarian or otherwise, explain what Libertarian stances you agree or disagree with and why? ------------------ - Kwai-Chang Caine    | ||
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Moderator 
Posts: 2686 |
Kwai, I like a lot of what they say about social interaction, individual rights, etc. I generally sympathize with their side. But the business model of unrestrained capitalism ultimately fails...it turns to socialism or oligarchy....capitlaism needs small checks on it.  | ||
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Pro Bodybuilder 
Posts: 312 |
i hear they are for more freedom and less gov't and im for that, and ive been tending to lean toward the,i was gonna vote for browne but at the last second i thought if i did that i would be taking votes away from bush so i just voted him ,also because my mom was mad when i brought up brownes name anyway i know they are for more freedom and less gov't,but i dont know much more,can someone explain what their business beliefs are like and how it will lead to socialism | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 264 |
I took a test on their website a few months ago and it said I was about %90 libertarian or some such thing. The only item I disagreed with them on was I believe trade with nations which do not allow their people basic freedoms should be restricted. I believe the same of countries who threaten us. Their website claimed all trade should be driven by supply and demand entirely, and not influenced by ideology. | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder 
Posts: 1261 |
I'm politically atheist, which is in the same ballpark.... ------------------ | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 718 |
read "What it Means to be Libertarian" by Charles Murray he is the coauthor of the Bell Curve also ------------------ | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 248 |
I'm with Puc on this one...Fuckem..feedem..dogshit!  ------------------ | ||
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Olympian 
Posts: 1624 |
I voted for Harry Browne in the last election and have been a registered Libertarian since I turned 18. I am first and foremost an Objectivist, which is a philosophy more than a political ideology, however the Libertarian party most closely resembles it. Ayn Rand (the "founder" of Objectivism) was not a Libertarian, since she did not vote, however I think not voting takes away your right to complain! I disagree with Matt about Capitalism leading to Socialism, because pure, unchecked Laissez-Faire Capitalism has never actually been implemented. America in it's early days were close, but there was alays some intervention by the government. I will continue to vote for the Libertarian party since they most closely resembe my ideas/principles/ethics, etc. I have grown to view the Republicans and Democrats as two different sides of the same coin--a Socialist/Collectivist one! I believe ol' G.W. Bush was the lesser of "two evils," but I still could not put my check next to his name... I know there are some fellow Objectivists on this board, let's hear what you've got to say... ------------------ | ||
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Moderator
Posts: 2686 |
badkins, Here's the brief version: In unchecked capitalism, eventually, certain people will start to acquire wealth, through starting businesses, etc. As these businesses grow, they will eventually be able to squeeze out all competitors. It would become economic king of the mountain. Here's an example: I have a store, and we sell a product. So a wealthy person opens the exact same store right next to mine, sells the same product for one third the price. It doesn't matter if he takes a loss in the short term, right? I eventually have to lay off staff, raise prices, and in doing so, I put myself out of business. After I close, he jacks his prices up. This continues business by business. After all, there are no regulations. He can use his power and influence to make deals with shippers, pay distributors to charge me twice as much, buy a trucking company that I use and then close it down, or double the prices, etc. This won't happen overnight but it will happen. This is akin to how Rockefeller amassed a fortune that would be over one trillion dollars today. $1,000,000,000,000. He was able to do whatever he wanted, use price fixing, kickbacks, arrangements with shippers, (Microsoft does this now. Any PC you buy comes with Windows already.) The end result of this "economic king of the mountain" is one guy on top of the mountain, from whom we buy everything. This, dear friend, is what happens is socialist countries. Does it really matter if you replace our fictitious Rockefeller with "the government"? No it doesn't. Either way, the outcome is the same - all things are supplied from one source. The only other possibility is oligarchy....a few amass such great wealth that they are not able to dislodge each other from their positions of wealth, so they just don't compete. (and the price lowering effect of competition is lost) So instead of one guy with $3trillion, there are 10 with $300 billion each, who all rule a segment. Regardless, teh source for all products and goods. Back to our Microsoft example: consider Oracle. They don't really compete with Microsoft...but if controls were lifted, Oracle and Microsoft could go out and obliterate every software company there is...steal their programmers by paying them more, pay shippers not to ship competitors' products.....until only those two were left. You'd have software oligarchy...two giants that have cash-starved their competition, gutted their competition's infrastructre, and sit atop the mountain, not competing. It would happen in every industry. Given that the results are either one corporation that cotrols distribution, or an oligarchy of several that do, where is the difference IN RESULTS NOT PHILOSOPHY if it were the government? the control is equally absolute. Capitalism----> Socialism. Unavoidable. | ||
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Olympian
Posts: 1624 |
Matt...again, we tend to see things "from the same road, just different lanes" as I like to say. I am an optimist, who truly believes that IF we could move closer to pure Capitalism, and farther from the semi-Socialist state America is becoming, we would see more competition, lower prices, and a better quality of life. I had this same argument with my uncle who also owns a "small business," per se, but is definitely up-and-coming. He continually argues that without regulations, a bigger agency could "outdo" him, and eventually run him off...BUT I say to him, if there is nothing forcing someone to buy a certain product, then that's FREEDOM! I agree that Microsoft rules the their respective industry...but I contend that it does so because it puts our the best product for your dollar...other operating systems are available, but Windows, in my experience and research is by far easier to use and cheaper. There are no laws, nothing to force another person/company to invent or develop a new system, just like there was nothing stopping Bill Gates...and that is how I see Capitalism, the freedom to always be able to create something better! The only pure MONOPOLIES in history were caused by federal governments, railroads in the early 20th century being a prime example...without government intervention--either way, preventing or causing success--there CANNOT logically be a monopoly... Again, thanks for the compliments on the other thread... Matt, where did you got to school, what did you study?? I'm an English major if you didn't know...I plan on teaching high school English uopon graduation... ------------------ | ||
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Moderator
Posts: 2686 |
Badkins, I studied math in college. But I wasn't much of a student....I just have a rare gift to do and understand math; I got my degree without ever purchasing a single textbook. (Not an exaggeration. And they were included in my scholarship. I just didn't bother.) It wasn't until after that I became aware of things and took an interest in many matters. I regret the way I acted from 15-22, no drugs or anyhting....just kind of a mental apathy...I guess as I look back, I expected more out of college than drinking and socializng....sure there was plenty of that but little mental challenge. I'm working on a book about how the higher education system steals the dreams of our youth and replaces them with aspirations for mediocrity. (I lost it when a friend of mine told me he wasworking at an insurance company. I asked him, "Was this what you dreamed of when you were growing up? Fucking State Farm claims processor?" I attribute him ending up there in large part to a system of education that forces so much crap its students, though he should shoulder much of the responsibility also). That is why I am encouraged by people like you who are so active mentally and physically. My economic ideal would be capitalism with minimal (but some) regulation. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 53 |
I agree with Matt. There was a special on the History channel about the old meat industry where whenever the inspector came by, he was offered some tea and a conversation, while he was off doing that, the workers were slaughtering all of the sick and injured beef, then when he came out, the dirty work was already done. Another man told of sweeping up all the guts from the floor under the cutting table, they were put into barrels and then later sold as canned meat. This is why there should be some standards in the workforce put in place by the government, to stop this type of thing from happening. However, I don't believe in the government telling people how to run their business from a paper standpoint, such as who to hire, and taxes and such. I believe that a government that is overseeing, but not controlling COULD be a good thing....as long as the "overseeing" doesn't lead to becoming the BIG-BROTHER we now have. | ||
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Olympian
Posts: 1624 |
Matt, that's funny, 'cause I see the same thing here in college, right now as we speak!! Ironically, and in a sort of bass-akwards way, I'm flicking my thumb at those "let's be happy with mediocrity" professors, and now--INSTEAD OF GOING TO LAW SCHOOL, which is something I had always dreamed about and wished to do--AM PLANNING ON GETTING CERTIFIED TO TEACH...HIGH SCHOOL!! WTF ?!@#$%^&*...most will say, but, I have realized that being "successful," a very relative term nowadays, being rich (monetarily), IS NOT all that I strive for, although for a long time I thought those 2 things were all that mattered. Through my relationship with my current girlfriend (hopefully future fiancee), and my work with small children at the YMCA where I'm from for the last 4 years, I have realized that MONEY is NOT the most important thing in life...THERE WILL ALWAYS be money to be made, through investing, publishing my own work, etc. I know that in whatever I do, I'll be "successful," and by doing something that I think I'm going to love, I'll be able to spend more time with my family, have more of an influence on people, and be happier! These "friends" of mine here at school show me everytime they talk about what they want to with their lives, that I'M DOING FINE in mine...not to insult them, they are my friends, but they have no outlook on tomorrow, only today! Through my reading, bodybuilding, and other actvities, I am able to better myself everyday, as I plan for tomorrow!! Wow, that was long-winded, hope I didn't ramble on too terribly much!! Matt, GO AHEAD AND RESERVE ME A COPY OF THAT BOOK... ------------------ | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 822 |
when will your book be done? so you know, getting published is much harder than it looks on tv. give a brief synopsis. because i don't see how everyone can be a cowboy. factories & insurance companies keep the world going. | ||
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Moderator
Posts: 2686 |
Stalin, I want to write about the role the American higher education system plays in closing doors of opportunity to its entering undergrads, rather than opening them. I will also show that the exorbitant tuitions are in many ways responsible for the economic stagnation of a large segment of the population. Is that Ok with you? | ||
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Elite Bodybuilder
Posts: 822 |
i didnt mean that as an insult. i was referring to adam smiths invisible hand. if there are less mundane workers, wages for these jobs will go up, more people will go into them and the cycle will be right back where it started. nevermind. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 132 |
I'm a Republican because they support the rights of those who legally own, and use guns. I also believe in a strong national defense. Finally, they believe in self-responsibility and so do I. I guess the fact that the Republican party can get me a job doesn't hurt either. | ||
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Olympian
Posts: 1624 |
CrazyThug, CAN YOU HONESTLY TELL ME YOU SEE MAJOR DIFFERENCES IN THE 2 MAJOR POLITICAL PARTIES, RIGHT NOW, IN 2001?? I'd believe it 20-30 years ago, when conservative and liberal meant something, but like I said, I view both as 2 sides of the same coin... If you want freedom, and believe in self-responsibilty, read that Libertarian page, open those eyes, and get back to me!! I really think you'll find you have more in common with the Libertarian Party than the Republicrats...or the Demublicans!! ------------------ | ||
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Moderator
Posts: 2686 |
Stalin, I'm all over it. And I am not condemning or re-inforcing Smith's argument. However, do you think that being a claims processor at State Farm truly requires a college degree? That job, and many others like it, require a degree artificially, yet a few weeks of on the job training would be enough for the average a 19 year old. That is closer to my hypothesis. Badkins - I watched the Kennedy-Nixon debates on the history channel....this was 1960 - and the Republicans and Democrats criticsms of each other have not chaged. | ||
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Amateur Bodybuilder
Posts: 132 |
Badkins, Good luck changing me to another party. I was an Officer of the Convention at the Republican National Convention, have been a Republican all my life, and plan on moving to DC to work in the White House in spring 2002. ------------------ | ||
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Mutant  
Posts: 3262 |
why would you want to be a librarian....the dewy decibel system what a joke.... Now if you talking about libertarians...they too are a joke....my quote (which i posted a while back) taken directly from the libertarian party home page "Libertarians want a win-win world of peace and plenty. And we believe that the only way to get it is through self-government... NOT others- government. Self-government is the combination of personal responsibility and tolerance. Responsibility means you govern yourself. Tolerance means you don't force your values on peaceful, honest people"
P.S. Nice ideas....but unfortunately as a country we are way FAR away from be ready for such a revolution [This message has been edited by AGENT SHAGWELL (edited February 19, 2001).] | ||
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Moderator
Posts: 2686 |
Shags, I decline to affiliate with any political party, BUT..... Becaue we are so far from what the libertarians desire, a revolution is the only way it will occur... if we were close to it, it would happen naturally. | ||
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Olympian
Posts: 1624 |
CraxyThug...ANYTHING'S POSSIBLE MY FRIEND!! I think it would be more likely for a Conservative Republican to "convert" than a liberal Democrat... So there's hope for you yet, hehe... Shags...why is something right, something pure, something that YOU know is better than what we have a joke because we are "far away from it??" Doesn't that make it more necessary for those that THINK to express their ideals/values, etc. That is what I try to do by voting for the party I follow, and not the "lesser of 2 evils." I knew for a 100% fact that Browne wasn't going to win, but if enough people vote for them, at least maybe the 2 major parties will take notice and re-establish their own platforms and not be so alike... ------------------ | ||
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Mutant
Posts: 3262 |
You are correct sir...that is why I referred to it as a revolution.... Like webster decribes it: revolution- a fundamental change in political organization; especially : the overthrow or renunciation of one government or ruler and the substitution of another by the governed | ||
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Mutant
Posts: 3262 |
quote: First off I never said I thought libertarianism is better......and i think people think and express their ideal and values plenty now... Here's my thinking.....I'm a realist with a romatism aspirations ... Before you can treat an animal you must first access the nature of the beast ......before you can impliment systems for a company you must access the company's needs and ability to design a system that will work.. From what I know, learn, and observe of the USA....in my opinion libertarianism will never fly.... |
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posted February 17, 2001 11:07 PM
