Does anyone remember the WBF and their failed attempt at creating a drug free bodybuilding contest? The bodybuilders that tried to do it drug free lost amazing amounts of mass. In some cases bodybuilders who used to compete at 230 � 240 LB�s ripped before joining the WBF, were competing at a fat 180 � 190 LB�s after joining the WBF.

Does anyone remember the diet that a lot of these guys were using to compete naturally? Yes you guessed it the Ketogenic diet. So on the ketogenic diet these guy�s got a lot smaller and a lot fatter.

The main theory behind the ketogenic diet is that during the first 5 days your body converts from burning carbs to burning fat. How? Well it was theorised that your body starts producing more natural GH in the high fat stage, which in turn helps you burn fat and maintain muscle mass at the same time.

There are a few flaws in this theory though.

1. - High fat diets do not increase your GH output they totally blunt your GH output. Only high protein, low fat diets really increase GH.

2. - GH does f**k all without insulin, it is the combination of GH and Insulin that leads to your body producing IGF-1 which is the true muscle builder.

3. � Without carbs your liver reduces it�s output of T3 so your metabolising slows down and you start to get fat very fast.

Well take my first point about fat blunting GH output, this I have read in quite a few places, but what brought it back to my attention was an article about Niacin.
http://intelegen.com/nutrients/niacin.htm

Basically Niacin can dramatically increase natural GH levels, but when you take Niacin with a high fat meal you get little or no increase in GH.

Also I think you should read this:
http://www.mesomorphosis.com/exclusive/haycock/growth-factors.htm

If you want me to dig up some more info then I will.

You see Px1138 a lot of the Personal trainers and people who come up with these diets, try them out on bodybuilders who are already using large amounts of drugs.

As a personal trainer from a Golds Gym in the States put it to me, while he was describing a top pro bodybuilder who I had observed in the gym training with no greater intensity than anyone else there. �You have got to realise them guy�s are using so much drugs it doesn�t matter what way they train or diet they are still going to get big.

So when some personal trainer or top bodybuilder tells you �well my clients or, I have made great gains on this diet or that training routine,� ask them how much drugs they or their clients are taking? Then just watch how fast they go from being a nutritional/training expert to, I don�t want to talk to you anymore.

As for the theories you put forward as to why a keto diet won't work, as my boss is very fond of saying "it may work in practice, but it won't work in theory".

With or without elevated GH, insulin or IGFs it is a FACT that FFAs increase in the blood, of people in ketosis. This should make it clear that these people are burning fat as a fuel source. And thyroid output does decrease when you're in ketosis, but the periodic carb-loading periods (on a CKD) are designed to partly ameliorate this.

There are a few things that I would like to comment on though. When you mention "ketogenic diet", is this with a weekly carb-up? or is it a straight ketogenic diet like the Atkin's diet? There is a big difference between the 2. I don't know exactly what kind of "ketogenic diet" the WBF had been following (even under the medical attention that was given, which doesn't really mean much) but to base the diet on the results of these athletes, is kind of misleading. Anyone who quits using anabolics will eventually lose what they gain no matter what diet they follow (even when drugs like clomid etc. are used). Did they follow a CKD or a straight ketogenic diet? What year did this take place? I can't remember exactly. The reason I say this is because, I don't know if the weekly carb-up was even practiced at this time.

I will agree with you in that these diets are not built for mass gaining. It can be done, but this is only when carbs are added in some way and total calorie intake is above maintenance. To make a mass diet using a CKD/keto diet has never made sense to me because it is so much easier to get gains when carbs are added. Plus, IGF levels are low on a CKD, which are important for growth.

I will also agree with you that a CKD will lower coversion of T4 to T3, which will slow down fat loss. BUT, I have never seen anyone stop losing fat completely on a CKD even when this occurs. I am still able to lose a lot of fat under these conditions, and so has every one that I have worked with. Also, I have not found the weekend carb-up to help much with this problem, instead I use it mainly to help repair any tissue damage that may have occured during the week in ketosis and for its use in helping with my early week training sessions. Obviously, one would have to reengage with a carb-based diet for a week or two to get their thyroid back up, but I never really find this a must do for continual fat loss.

Before I go any further, I have to say that I have used this diet scheme with and without drugs and I seem to get the same results in the end (admittedly easier with the drugs of course), which is a great deal of stubborn bodyfat loss and minimal muscle deteriation. My last CKD was a complete success. Although I am by no means as big as I was when juicin', I have learned to perform the diet to its full potential as a "natural" lifter. My last CKD (no juice, thyroid, DNP) I was able to lose 24 pounds of fat without losing a single pound of muscle. So to answer your question, YES, it is effective for people that are not under the use of juice, etc...and I have a lot of friends that can say the same too.

I agree with MS in that this diet is not for everyone, and I would not use it unless I was under 10% because I can achieve this with no problem anyway (although I did do it with my last one, which I was around 17% bodyfat starting out). The sole purpose of my doing this diet is for its effectiveness on losing STUBBORN BODYFAT at low bodyfat levels. Even though I am a big advocate of this diet, I will also admit that it is no more effective (or faster) at getting one from 20% to 10% than a carb-based diet (ranging from a zone/isocaloric diet to a high carb diet depending on the individual).

I think i'll stop here and see what I have written so far, and to make sure I am not getting off the topic. Take it easy man.
MR. BMJ

[This message has been edited by MR. BMJ (edited January 19, 2001).]

The person who experimenting with this diet on the the WBF bodybuilders was none other than Dr Mauro Dipasquale. He changed the diet several times, but still it did not seem to work, the guy's kept getting fatter and fatter. Yes ok there where a few that did get bigger and more ripped, but they where the few who knew how to beat the drugs tests. Also I would put any money on it that they where not following the ketogenic diet either.

As for the increase in FFA's in the blood: I can't see how this can be healthy in any way shape or form.

The latest research is now suggesting that too much suger in the diet is not the main cause of type 2 (adult onset) diabetes, but rather too much fat in the diet.

So maybe you are correct MS, maybe it only works for some and not for others, eg someone who is likely to be type 2 diabetic and tries the ketogenic diet would find that it does not work for them and would probably make their condition even worse.

Also consider this, I read somewhere that 3 in 5 or was it 4 in 5 American adults are believed to have symptoms of type 2 diabetes: it doesn't seem like the ketogenic diet will suit very many people.

Nasser El Sonbaty was once asked about the ketogenic diet and he basically said, why the hell would you want to increase the amount of fat you are eating when that is what you are trying to get rid of. Most pro bodybuilders and indeed most so called naturals will just increase there protein and lower there carbs when they are dieting. In Sonbaty's case he increases it to 500-600g of protein per day.

MR.BMJ I believe the WBF bodybuilders where following the CKD diet, carbing up at the weekends.

Type 2 diabetes appears to be exacerbated by the COMBINATION of high fat and high sugar intake. There is no evidence that high fat wthout the sugar is a problem. High levels of FFA may or not be good for you. All it shows is that the diet works at least as far as getting your body to burn lots of fat as a fuel source. Keep in mind that high triglyceride levels are a risk factor for your average American who is also likely to be eating a high sugar/salt diet, and doing little to no exercize. It may not be bad for you when in a ketogenic exercizing state. Much of Dr. Atkins work will have us believe this is true.

As you said yourself, you haven't given the diet a fair trial. And even 1 week isn't enough to be fair. It takes several weeks for your body to fully adapt to high fat and start burning at full blast. But then again, you may be one of those people who just don't do well on CKD.