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  CKD depletion ? for Mr. BMJ, MS, or anyone

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Author Topic:   CKD depletion ? for Mr. BMJ, MS, or anyone
vlaovic

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 381
From:Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Jul 2000

posted January 04, 2001 12:41 AM

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Since I will be attempting another CKD [after my 11 week experience of last summer] sometime in the farily near future, and since Mr. BMJ is doing one now, I was wondering about alternatives to the depletion workout, if any can exist.

I absolutely despise the damn thing! It seems so ridiculous - not because I give 2shits about looking like a jackass waving little dumbells around for an hour and a half, but just because I can think of several thousand things I'd rather be doing at any given moment of the depletion "workout"/boredom exercise.

Since I did my depletions like BMJ described [Saturday morning after some fruit], and since I had been playing around with the original T-mag "Warrior Diet" last fall, I got the idea that if you could get an 18 hour fast going, then do cardio [without the fructose] to dump any liver glycogen, would you not get good compensation?
In addition, if you were to up your training volume on the post-carbup workout days, would that not take care of the muscle glycogen?
Granted, you'd probably look even more flat and shitty between Wednesday and Saturday, but would it work?

[This message has been edited by vlaovic (edited January 04, 2001).]


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MR. BMJ

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 360
From:
Registered: Apr 2000

posted January 04, 2001 03:02 AM

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Actually, I have not done a CKD since the summer, I was gonna do one for 3 weeks to shed a little fat but decided against it because I wanted to use this winter to its advantage for some mass gains. I decided to do the write-ups for the sake of showing others what has worked for me, and I promised a few that I would do it. I decided to finish the daily writings so that I didn't look like a liar on my promise.

Anyway, I'll try and see if I can answer your questions.

I have not read T-mags diet that you are talking about so I do not really know any reasoning behind what they say. Therefore I cannot really comment against what they say. As far as compensation goes, anyone with depleted muscles and liver will obviously get some kind of compensation, but it will not be "super"-compensation. This may or may not matter if the individual is not preparing for a contest. One thing that is known is that when the muscles worked reach very, very low levels of glycogen, the better the carb-up (supercompensation) will be. I don't remember the exact levels at which this occurs, but I think it is around 20 mmol (correct me if i'm wrong). It's hard to reach these levels unless some kind of exercise/weight training is performed. I know that weight training is superior to cardio for muscle glycogen depletion, but the opposite is the case for liver depletion. Weight training will give you a better carb-up compensation than cardio. Therefore I would have to advise one to do weight training before the carb-up for best results. However, I understand the boredom thing as well. One thing I have noticed is that a lot of times I can get away with only 2 circuit sets and get a good carb-up (with cardio after optional).

***How fast do you get bored? What if you were to only do 2 circuit sets? It may not cause total "super"compensation with all the benefits, but it also is not gonna be counterproductive as well. As far as just doing cardio, I have never tried it by itself. I always at least do 1-2 circuit sets if I drag myself to the gym. This is something you will probably have to experiment with. I should note again that the muscles used prior to the carb-up will benefit the most. If you are not trying to compete or go for a photo shoot/beach, then 1-2 circuit sets should probably be fine.

As far as increasing the training volume on Monday and Tuesday, it is alright as long as your muscles are not sore by the time your Saturday depletion workout comes around. One of the whole points of the Monday and Tuesday workouts is to create just enough stimulus to keep your muscles from becomming catabolic (using a somewhat heavier lifting scheme with more intensity but less volume of sets/reps). One thing I am certain on is that these can not be used as a means to create supercompensation. You may be able to get your blood glucose levels that low fast enough (if enough exercise/glucose disposal agents/insulin etc. is used), I don't know, but the thing to remember is that the longer you wait after your workout to start the carb-ups, the higher the level of glycogen resynthesis that will occur. This starts to happen after just an hours wait. And starting the carb-up after your earlier weeks workouts will not really give you much time in ketosis for fat burning. Therefore, you need to stay in ketosis long enough for the fat buring effects to come into play, and it should also be followed as quickly as possible with the start of the carb-up as well. Therefore, I would say "no" to your second question. If you can get low enough blood glucose levels after these workouts and start the carb-up, then the fat burning affect will suffer (due to decreased time in ketosis). Also, it is still debated whether or not these deeper levels of ketosis are of any benefit to better fat burning levels. Also, I am not sure if you could achieve these low levels and sustain them until Saturday without your body raising them some (blood glucose levels). Lastly, like I mentioned previously, the longer you wait to carb-up from the previous workout, the higher the level of glycogen resynthesis that will occur due to hormonal changes.

Hopefully, I aswered your question a little without getting to much off the topic at hand. I will probably have to go back and edit some of this because I am tired right now and probably made some errors.
MR. BMJ

[This message has been edited by MR. BMJ (edited January 04, 2001).]


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vlaovic

Pro Bodybuilder

Posts: 381
From:Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Jul 2000

posted January 04, 2001 08:22 AM

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I certainly didn't mean starting a carbup after doing the heavy post-carbup [monday/tuesday or whatever] workouts, but I can see the logic behind NOT being able to sustain the low glucose one would supposedly achieve after the heavy workouts with increased volume [as I proposed]. If, for example, I was to do sufficient metabolic work on Mon/Tues. and drop glucose to 20 [which if I remember correctle from my Macdonald articles IS correct], I think you're probably right in that even without carbs and a good enough ketogenic ratio, the body would still refuse to maintain such a low level until Saturday's carb-up. While I don't know how/why the body would do this [?you might?], I certainly think it's possible.

I also see the reasoning behind dumping muscle IN ADDITION TO liver glycogen prior to carbup i.e. Sat. morning.

So, my next question is [and I think Lyle proposed this at one time or another?]...
Suppose that I've carbed up on Sat/Sun. Suppose I've done heavy Mon/Tues workouts + enough cardio to drop muscle glycogen, liver glycogen, and blood glucose, and have also been eating in accordance with the "magic" ketogenic ratio, thus hitting ketosis Tuesday night, or Wednesday. However, by Sat. morning, my body has raised glucose way past the 20 mark, but since I'm eating properly, not enough to undo ketosis. At any rate, by whatever inate mechanism, it's been raised sufficiently to prevent true SUPER-compensation, if I was to start carbing on Sat., with no depletion workout. Therefore, in an effort to avoid the "awsome" depletion workout, and maybe even reap extra benefits from the carbup, without taking in the pre-depletion fructose, I do an ultra-low volume, full body, heavy workout, while in full-blown ketosis. Perhaps something like 2 sets for back, chest, etc. and one for arms, abs, etc.
In theory, would this not push the level of glucse over that supercompensation "edge"?
Would it not also [considering the obscenely low volume] be insufficient to cause soreness by the time the Mon/Tues. post-carbup, heavy, normal volume workouts roll around?

Considering that the carbup would begin virtually right after, I would hope any catabolism would be averted, and maybe even a little anabolism encouraged. Glycogen ought to be low enough on virtue of having not eaten carbs for five days, and the glucose low enough from the full-body, low-volume workout.

Any thoughts?


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